77 replies to this topic

[David M. Kane]

How could I forget Jochen? He'd be there too...

[David M. Kane]

On "Inside F1" today Niki Lauda showed a very human side, I commend him for that. He showed a lot of graditude to the drivers who pulled from his burning Ferrari. He admit that he would have died in only a few more seconds if they had not acted so bravely.

Good on him!

[Stian1979]

I'm impresed that you remember Ronnie.
The fastes swedish there ever was.
I thought only us in skandinavia remembered him.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
On "Inside F1" today Niki Lauda showed a very human side, I commend him for that. He showed a lot of graditude to the drivers who pulled from his burning Ferrari. He admit that he would have died in only a few more seconds if they had not acted so bravely.

Good on him!

Yes David,
but he is speaking very late about that, and maybe because he is becoming old, so maybe he reconsider a lot of things of his incredible life.

In Internet I have found an interview of Guy Edwards, in witch he define Lauda, the little sod.
Nothing else.

Just some weeks after the accident, the great Arturo Merzario received by hand from Lauda a watch. If I am not wrong, at first stage Arturo considered very expressive the gift, but then he discovered that Lauda did not paid for it, it was a promotional watch from Heurer. He was very offended by that and only with the "mediation" of Carlo Chiti he did not made a real mess out of everything............
I am not completly sure about those episodes because Arturo in a lot of interviews says
" I dont speak about Nurburgring............"

So we are speaking about two drivers that even if they surely made something extra special in that rescue..................they did not speak of, because of the attitudes of Lauda after the accident......

In an interview Arturo tell us that on 2001 in the Monza paddock, Lauda introduced him to his son,
saying that he was the real person who saved him.
In conseguence of that, Arturo say in the interview, that now he could take in account the probability to return to speak with Lauda....................
But I mean............30 years after ???
I like to underline the fact that if you hear the sound of the burning wrekage, it is enough to scare you, imagine to real do what they've done, in those minutes..........

MonzaDriver.

[David Force]

There are other recollections of Zolder on a previous site Villeneuve, Zolder and seat belts if any one is interested, Twinny ?

[MaxScelerate]

Ah right, the 'seatbelts that weren't clamped to the floor' theory?

[canon1753]

Originally posted by MonzaDriver


Just some weeks after the accident, the great Arturo Merzario received by hand from Lauda a watch. If I am not wrong, at first stage Arturo considered very expressive the gift, but then he discovered that Lauda did not paid for it, it was a promotional watch from Heurer. He was very offended by that and only with the "mediation" of Carlo Chiti he did not made a real mess out of everything............
I am not completly sure about those episodes because Arturo in a lot of interviews says
" I dont speak about Nurburgring............"

So we are speaking about two drivers that even if they surely made something extra special in that rescue..................they did not speak of, because of the attitudes of Lauda after the accident......

In an interview Arturo tell us that on 2001 in the Monza paddock, Lauda introduced him to his son,
saying that he was the real person who saved him.
In conseguence of that, Arturo say in the interview, that now he could take in account the probability to return to speak with Lauda....................
But I mean............30 years after ???
I like to underline the fact that if you hear the sound of the burning wrekage, it is enough to scare you, imagine to real do what they've done, in those minutes..........

MonzaDriver.

Niki makes it clear in his 1986 Autobiography that he and Arturo did not see eye to eye on much. I am glad to see that he and Niki may also come closer to speaking to each other.

[David M. Kane]

No actually the seatbelts ripped out of all of their anchors and were still attached to his body when his body hit the fencing at about 60-70mph+...It is clearly decernable in the video which I watch far too many times before I destroyed it. I never wanted to see it again.

It's not a theory, it's an ugly fact.

The next Grand Prix I examined the anchors and they been strengthed consideraby by Dr. Harvey P., the designer. I had photo credentials so I was in the pits all weekend.

[MaxScelerate]

Makes a lot (more) of sense, the story I heard was about some sheet of metal that would have been removed from the floor for a small weight gain or something like that. Thanks for clearing that up! It's a sad thing this possible defect wasn't detected earlier by dr. Postlewaite.

[David M. Kane]

Max:

He hit with a force that they (the designer) never imagined was possible. He literally was still in his seat, it was like it was attached to his back like a parachute. It was so horrible, that is why I still have bad dreams about it. The visual just won't go away.

I have a friend here in Indy, Doug Hill, who is the FIA Safety Official for the Canadian GP and USGP
who tracks and compiles accident statistics for them. He was in the chase car with the track Doctor,
Dr. Julio Fernades of the University of Montreal. Maybe he can tell us more about the dynamics of the accident if anyone is interested. It is my understanding is that like Dale Earnhart it was a basal
fracture that killed him. It was clearly caused by massive deacceleration (pardon the spelling).

[Paolo]

Originally posted by canon1753


Niki makes it clear in his 1986 Autobiography that he and Arturo did not see eye to eye on much. I am glad to see that he and Niki may also come closer to speaking to each other.

Last week on Autosprint there was a pic of Lauda and Merzario celebrating the accident's anniversary together.
Apparently, they've come closer.

[Jojoman]

Concerning Zolder accident in 1982 in which Gilles was killed, there is still a huge question mark over the whole official story, and this is my contribution to the whole discussion.
First, it all started in Imola. You can't go over the fact that Gilles, a honest person would easily take being cheated by a slower driver like Pironi (1,5 second in the same car!) - specially in the circumstances where he obediently handed the championship to Scheckter 1979, investing in Ferrari team. It is well known that he pulled the juornalists off and told them not to be harsh on Pironi after Dider posted some slow times during the testing. He acted friendly toward Didier and had no hidden agenda. And all he got was a stollen victory at Imola 1982 in the presence of the Ferrari home crowd. I saw a photo with a dashboard from Ferrari pit:
Slow
1. Gilles
2. Didi
Would you drive a ful throttle down Tamburello if you were in the place of Gilles? Pironi knew that Gilles would not drive at full speed and easily overtook him. I also saw that moment of his passing and, boy, Gilles was just going about 70% of the full speed, saving the tires and fuel confident that Pironi would follow the inner rules of Ferrari. Third placed Alboreto was more than 40 seconds off.
Two weeks later, Mass is on his lap to the pits, so clearly slower then Gilles who still drives his last fast lap. He goes his way, Gilles approaches. They enter the left curve - Gilles with such a speed that the car lightly slides on the right (see the video). Now... How could ever Mass think to give Gilles the left side of the track when it's so clear that the g-forces have kept Gilles on the outer, right side? Wasn't he obligated to move and give place to Gilles far earlier before he approached? Wasn't he obligated at least to give an early sign which side of the narrow track will he take for example by taking the right side of the left curve and keeping it until Gilles passes? And if he really wanted to give Gilles the best side which is by his claims left, how is it that he did not succeeded even to turn his car on the right side of the track? If you closely watch the video, you could see that his move to the right was sooo late that it must have been some other explanation. The impact occurred somewhere just after the entrance of the left curve - therefore there was no place and possibility that Gilles may pass Mass on the left side of the track... Imagine yourself in the position of Gilles (with all the speed difference, G-force and unability to steer to left and pass Mass on his left side), and you will see how unavoidable was the accident.
As some indicated, Niki Lauda had some really strong words in his communication with Mass after that accident (and because of the accident) in some german magazine/newspaper. Lauda entitled his written public address to Mass with “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” – which is a title of well-known movie that undoubtly indicates in which direction went his communication with Mass.
Maybe not all of my thoughts are right. But…
I still have strong feeling that Mass just carelessly drove his March, either not even looking at his mirrors and seeing that Gilles is coming or having a really bad judgment over what, when and how to do. Whatever it was, it strongly disqualify his credentials as a racing driver. As the matter of fact, Gilles' daughter approached Mass in a friendly manner on one of the floowing races and talked peacefully with him - which after all better reflects her character than that of Mass….
Now, imagine such an accident in one of the following F1 races. If something like that happen, would anyone consider a driver in similar place and position of Mass innocent?
Just like Jackie Stewart indicated once - probably the most horrible thing about Gilles life is that his last days were so fuel of grief and remorse... He never saw the light again after Imola 1982.
As far as the Pironi's later position is concerned, one event clearly showes his situation. When he got the pole position in Canada, he said that if Gilles was alive, we all know to whom the pole would gone. One of the drivers said to that something like - Without him, Gilles would still be alive...

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Jojoman
I still have strong feeling that Mass just carelessly drove his March, either not even looking at his mirrors and seeing that Gilles is coming or having a really bad judgment over what, when and how to do. Whatever it was, it strongly disqualify his credentials as a racing driver. As the matter of fact, Gilles' daughter approached Mass in a friendly manner on one of the floowing races and talked peacefully with him - which after all better reflects her character than that of Mass….

I don't believe for a moment that Mass can be blamed for the accident with Gilles, it was simply a combination of factors that came together in one place and ended in tragedy.
In the words of Alan Rees:

"Fantastic guy Mass, super guy, one of the nicest drivers I've ever known without a doubt. He actually got on with everybody."

[ensign14]

I saw a video of the accident once (fortunately the cameraman conventrated on Mass after the impact rather than the Ferrari). I could not see that Mass was to blame at all. Gilles took a banzai line that I did not expect just watching the video let alone Mass driving an F1 car.

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by ensign14
I saw a video of the accident once (fortunately the cameraman conventrated on Mass after the impact rather than the Ferrari). I could not see that Mass was to blame at all. Gilles took a banzai line that I did not expect just watching the video let alone Mass driving an F1 car.

I was/am a huge FAN of Gilles.

I agree with you entirely.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by ensign14
I saw a video of the accident once (fortunately the cameraman conventrated on Mass after the impact rather than the Ferrari). I could not see that Mass was to blame at all. Gilles took a banzai line that I did not expect just watching the video let alone Mass driving an F1 car.

I totally agree with you. I was at the circuit with my stopwatch running on Gilles when it happened. He was on a balls-out lap and that's for certain. Subsequently I saw a video of the incident - I destroyed it a month or so afterwards - and there is no blame to place on Mass whatsoever.

[SpaMaster]

It is known that Pironi overtook an unsuspecting Villeneuve at Imola which made GV very furious. That made him go out for that tragic qualy lap at Zolder in anger. But look at this translation from the blog of Italian reporter Turrini where he quotes GV's race engineer, particularly the underlined sentences.

http://club.quotidia...iorni_di_gilles

The last days of Gilles

Posted by Leo Turrini Thu, 13/10/2011 - 21:57

Some of you have expressed curiosity about my memories of these extraordinary characters. Maybe you get more bored when you get older, but you can always read the book of Paolino Scaramelli, the race engineer of Gilles Villeneuve while waiting for qualifying in Korea, can't you?

Paolinio is now retired. He does beautiful things in the voluntary sector. He worked for decades in Ferrari, he is a piece of the Red's history. He is a wonderful person. He has great memories. As you will see.

(The following are Paolino's direct words)

THE LAST DAYS OF GILLES

'1982 ... But first let me say one thing. I have been in the pitbox with a lot of people, I have seen them all up to Schumacher, I have known them all. But Gilles was the best of them all. I know, he isn't on the list of world champions. But Villeneuve was in another category, trust me ...

'... First I want to explain something. In 1979 when Jody won the title, the last title before Michael, Gilles was actually stronger. But Scheckter was the predestined, the Elder had chased him for two years. It was he who had to win. He said to Villeneuve, you're good, wait, the future will be yours. He was a very good guy, there was never any need to pressure him. But he never got his moment ... '

'... Or rather his moment came in 1982. It was that Sunday in Imola, the fight with Pironi, and so on. I'll make it short. At Imola there was a dispute between British manufacturers and teams, a few of them decided not to race. The battle for the victory concerned only Ferrari and Renault, Prost and Arnoux including ... '

'... Before the start things were very clear. Defined. Renault was ahead. Meaning that the team mate could not and should not attack him ... '

'... Gilles was in front of him. But Pironi did not respect the agreements. We may never know why, he never explained his attitude. But Villeneuve was stunned because he loved Pironi, they were friends, did many things together ... '

'... I can also say that there was also a mess of our own in the pits. You know, sometimes fate is strange. That Sunday at Imola our great leader was not there. He was hindered by a personal commitment elsewhere ... '

... '... And it was a disaster. If Forghieri had been there, from the pits, with signboards as radios not even worked, he would have imposed the French to respect the agreements. But in the absence of Forghieri, who commanded in the pits was Marco Piccinini, the sports director. And ...'

'... And Piccinini was with Pironi! See, Gilles had already decided to leave Ferrari. They wrote that he wanted to be with Ron Dennis, McLaren. But I know he had an agreement with Frank Williams, for 1983 ... '

'... I have to add something. The Elder! Well, Enzo Ferrari was Ferrari. He could not tolerate that a driver becomes more important than his car. Even if it was Gilles. Enzo Ferrari was not unaware of Piccinini's behaviour, even if he was not there (Imola). For him there was only 'the' Ferrari. First Pironi, second Villeneuve, perfect ... '

'... This also explains what happened later. Gilles was pissed. I remember his meeting with the Elder after Imola. Ferrari listened and said finally: you have behaved well, everything's fine, thanks and goodbye ... '

... The same day the Elder also wanted to meet Pironi. Same scene. He listens, he talk and tells him that in Imola you behaved very well, all is well, thank you and goodbye ... '

'... This was Ferrari, a man whom I have always loved, for whom I would go into fire and who could throw me there again if he was here. That is what he was like. The Ferrari went before everything. Everything! Then again, this story is influenced by the fact if the Old knew about the departure of Gilles, well, this will always remain a mystery ... '

'... Villeneuve was obsessed with Pironi. He didn't talk anymore, he didn't say hello anymore, the atmosphere in our pitbox was terrible. I remember that Saturday. Gilles made his rounds, came in, did not leave the cockpit. He said, just let me know Pironi's time. When the French did better than he did, Villeneuve immediately returned to the track ... '

'... And you know the rest ...'

'... But you do not know this. I returned to Zolder after the tragedy. It was night. I packed my stuff and I was destroyed, ready to go home to my family. But I stopped at the gate, saw that the Elder was still in office, went to see if he needs anything ... '

'... I entered the room. Ferrari was sitting behind the desk. I said in Modenese dialect: Tell me what happened on Saturday at Zolder, without leaving out anything ... '

'... And that's when I saw him. For the first time according to his own words, Ferrari cried. In silence, crying ... '

'... It was just the two of us. He was not pretending. He was crying. He said never tell about this. I will make an exception for you, Leo ... '

'... To put it simply, Villeneuve was unique. Even to him. '

It looks like - It was not just Pironi who deceived Villeneuve, the Ferrari management were an accomplice. Did Ferrari side with Pironi, since Villeneuve was set to leave the team?

A native Italian confirms that the underlined sentences mean that Pironi was supported over Villeneuve. If so, did Ferrari undermine even one of its biggest legends?

Edited by SpaMaster, 17 October 2011 - 09:53.

[Wolfie]

This anonymous native Italian friend also took the time to translate other articles

From brumm.it
http://www.brumm.it/...onali/AS47.html

Autostory Ferrai 126C2 Imola 1982 “Gilles J’accuse”

The Grand Prix of Imola in 1982 marks the break between Gilles Villeneuve and Didier Pironi. Until that race, the Canadian had respected hierarchy. First with Reutmann then with Scheckter. The role of the number one fell on him now. Shame that at Imola there wasn’t another Villeneuve acting the support driver, but an ambitious Parisian who wanted to win. So no one helped Gilles on that afternoon and Villeneuve suffered the humiliation of the overtaking. “Time will heal wounds”, said Pironi after a victory without smiles. And from his villa in Montecarlo, called “The mascot”, Villeneuve replied: “I won’t exchange a word with Didier any more and at Zolder I’ll treat him as any other opponent, certainly not as a team mate”. There was not even the time to keep the promise.

(Picture in web-page)
AS47 “Gilles j’accuse”

Gilles Villeneuve, who led the race, was overtaken by team mate Pironi although the signboard “SLOW” was exposed, and Pironi took the win over Villeneuve. Gilles felt so betrayed first by team mate and then by the team that didn’t respect the positions.

From eracemotorblog.it
http://www.eracemoto...g.it/2008/05/08 ... neuve.html

...It’s perhaps now legend a single episode that has been handed down, according to which Enzo Ferrari, the owner of the "Red", ordered that all 126 C2 still existing were destroyed forever, as if he wanted in this way to get free and purify himself from the sense of guilt of having made them born. Perhaps there is some grain of truth. All the legends have one. An act to erase the shame and awareness of bearing badly the idea that a project had revealed unsuccessful humanly speaking? Or a deep and true repentance, a tribute to the memory of the beloved, the driver to which he had a real sense of admiration? He was just him, the only one among all the "elected" called to run for the team, to rely on his unlimited confidence. ...

..."Pironi has underestimated the invitation to the sense of responsibility addressed by the pits with the signboard constantly exposed from lap forty-fifth. I understand the legitimate disappointment of Villeneuve and I shared his concerns about the risks faced. " Enzo Ferrari

From f1-grandprixhistory.net (long article in English with many quotes)
http://www.f1-grandp...Villeneuve.html

...
Death and Legacy
Now was the fateful day at Zolder in the Belgian GP. Gilles was still mad over the incident at Imola, and the fact that some on the Ferrari team were backing Pironi. ...

..."He left us for still unknown reasons. Destiny deprived us of a great champion, who I loved very much. My past is full of sad memories: my father, my mother, my brother, my son. I now look back on myself and see all the people I loved. Among them there is also this great man, Gilles Villeneuve." - Enzo Ferrari
...

From automotodepoca.it
http://automotodepoc.../MotorBlog/I-Gr ... neuve.html

GillesVilleneuve
For the fans (but for us, too) the name tells everything: passion, courage, madness, love and a tremendous melancholy and sadness for that damned 8th of May 1982 where death took away the driver that better than anyone else incarnated the Formula One of yesterday, today and, maybe, also tomorrow. It was Saturday, but not an ordinary Saturday.

It’s the race weekend after Imola GP, after the incorretness of whom that until then was a friend, a real friend, Didier Pironi. Pironi, not respecting the team orders, stole what had to be Gilles Villeneuve’s victory. It was instead Pironi’s victory. Gilles felt betrayed, he called to account, but no one was able to answer him, he was sure that someone would have defended him and taken his side inside the scuderia, but it didn’t happened.

He was scared. His fear was based on the fact that Enzo Ferrari didn’t want him any more because he had not won a championship yet, and the fact that the team didn’t defend him confirmed this conviction, in his heart.

To abandon that team, those persons that trusted him so much, was due to a deep discouragement, because he felt he didn’t succeed in giving them that title for which everyone worked unceasingly, even at night even on holiday. ...

From coruscant.it
http://www.coruscant...index.php?optio ... &Itemid=23

...In the following days the Canadian driver had bitter words for the friendship betrayed. To his disappointment, Enzo Ferrari’s words added bitterness, since Enzo Ferrari, in an attempt to minimize the incident and defuse the controversy does not openly defended the pilot stating that "no matter who wins as long as a Ferrari wins”. The Canadian driver earned the role of the first guide in past seasons and the promise of being supported by the team on its way to the world title by demonstrating his loyalty to Ferrari, helping Jody Scheckter in a decisive way when this wins the WDC in 1979. We don’t have also to forget the great sacrifice of the pilot in the development of the turbocharged engine, with many competitions ended in a cloud of smoke after a few metres. Betrayed by his team mate, Gilles felt abandoned even by Ferrari. Before Zolder there were rumors that the Canadian pilot was preparing to move to another team, especially Williams. Someone also says that Gilles wanted to establish his own team. In the newspapers circulated a statement that Gilles would turn the DS Ferrari Marco Piccinini after Gilles had understood that the Scuderia would not be punished Pironi for the incident: "Now go and find another driver." True or not, these rumors testify the poisoned atmosphere in which we came to the tragic end of the story.

[karne]

I've heard it suggested that Pironi misinterpreted the signal and didn't realise it meant "hold station".

I just don't think Pironi should be made out like the total villain here.

[scheivlak]

This has been discussed in several threads in the Nostagia Forum, e.g. http://forums.autosp...w...4&hl=Pironi and should be discussed there.

BTW I recently saw the entire Imola race again and really liked the way Didier never gave up.
It was simply a genuine fight, and it could well have been that Pironi was leading when the 'SLOW' message was shown - it was that scrappy!

Of course Pironi was in no way even remotely responsible for what happened at Zolder two weeks later.

[SpaMaster]

I've heard it suggested that Pironi misinterpreted the signal and didn't realise it meant "hold station".

I just don't think Pironi should be made out like the total villain here.

This is not about Pironi. This is about how GV felt the team betrayed him.

[jj2728]

This is not about Pironi. This is about how GV felt the team betrayed him.

There has been much written and I am sure even more said in various threads throughout ATLAS on this subject. I suggest you do a search and look at them. This is a tired horse beaten once too often.

[cilurnum]

If Villeneuve was angry at Zolder then that was his problem.

As for Villeneuve, he was certainly a fast and exciting driver but I've never been convinced of his apparent true greatness status. The fact that he got beat to a title by Scheckter does not sit well with me. If he really was superior then he should have been miles ahead of Pironi.

[faaaz]

If Villeneuve was angry at Zolder then that was his problem.

As for Villeneuve, he was certainly a fast and exciting driver but I've never been convinced of his apparent true greatness status. The fact that he got beat to a title by Scheckter does not sit well with me. If he really was superior then he should have been miles ahead of Pironi.

Senna was great, but he wasn't miles ahead of Prost. But when it rained, no one was near him. Same was the case with GV.

[FigJam]

As for Villeneuve, he was certainly a fast and exciting driver but I've never been convinced of his apparent true greatness status. The fact that he got beat to a title by Scheckter does not sit well with me. If he really was superior then he should have been miles ahead of Pironi.

2 things -

1. When Scheckter pipped Villeneuve to the title, Gilles was still very early on in his career. In any case Scheckter was a top driver in his own right...and Gilles was the perfect team player, even when he was sitting on JS's gearbox at Monza, shelving his own WDC hopes. Hence his disgust 3 years later.

2. The 1981 season...Villeneuve was miles ahead of Pironi...

[gillesthegenius]

2 things -

1. When Scheckter pipped Villeneuve to the title, Gilles was still very early on in his career. In any case Scheckter was a top driver in his own right...and Gilles was the perfect team player, even when he was sitting on JS's gearbox at Monza, shelving his own WDC hopes. Hence his disgust 3 years later.

2. The 1981 season...Villeneuve was miles ahead of Pironi...

Exactly. As it turned out, it were those points that he sacrificed by sitting behind Jody in Monza that prevented him from becoming world champion that year. Not to forget his transmission failure in Monaco while coasting along in second and his tyre explosion in at Zandvoort that cost him another podium.

[SpaMaster]

mtl'78, that was a fantastic post. Great read. Thanks a lot.

[cheesy poofs]

Today's the 30th anniversary of the 1982 San Marino GP.