Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

More moaning about the safety car rules


  • Please log in to reply
197 replies to this topic

#1 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,273 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:36

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88166

This reminds me when we had a new qualifying format every other week. How about just sticking with something?

Advertisement

#2 Don_Humpador

Don_Humpador
  • Member

  • 2,223 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:38

They're right though.

#3 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,349 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:42

Hamilton could have had a 1-2 if it weren't for about 7 or 8 backmarkers who wouldn't get out of the way.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 12 November 2010 - 16:42.


#4 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,567 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:43

Until last weekend I thought the new system was better - fundamentally because it stays truer to the actual track positipn of drivers, and because the cars can all get racing safely sooner.

However, having seen the appalling way the lapped traffic handled themselves last week, I'm afraid the wave-through has to return. Safety is one thing, but we can't have races spoiled through ignorance of blue flags and mirrors.

#5 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,567 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:44

Hamilton could have had a 1-2 if it weren't for about 7 or 8 backmarkers who wouldn't get out of the way.


He's so good he can take TWO places on the podium? :rotfl:

#6 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 35,886 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:45

How about scrapping the safety car? If an incident is bad enough to need the SC, red-flag it. Or use the Dutch Code 40, slow everyone down to pit-lane speed.

#7 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:56

They're right though.


This is a black and white issue to me, no middle ground and they are 100% WRONG.

The SC just reduces the gap anyway, said driver would have had to lap these cars in any event so why punish the guy that put one, two, three lapped cars between himself and the guy behind him????

Absolutely MYSTIFYING why so many here call for the lapped cars to be let through then call NASCAR a faked sport. It is just the same as NASCAR.

#8 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:57

Until last weekend I thought the new system was better - fundamentally because it stays truer to the actual track positipn of drivers, and because the cars can all get racing safely sooner.

However, having seen the appalling way the lapped traffic handled themselves last week, I'm afraid the wave-through has to return. Safety is one thing, but we can't have races spoiled through ignorance of blue flags and mirrors.


Eh??????? So vettel puts two cars between himself and Webber then gets Webber up his arse for no good reason?? And i am rooting for Webber!!! it's completely unjust.

You've all gone stark raving bloody mad.

#9 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,567 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:59

Eh??????? So vettel puts two cars between himself and Webber then gets Webber up his arse for no good reason?? And i am rooting for Webber!!! it's completely unjust.

You've all gone stark raving bloody mad.


I don't even know what you're talking about.

#10 Don_Humpador

Don_Humpador
  • Member

  • 2,223 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 16:59

The SC just reduces the gap anyway, said driver would have had to lap these cars in any event so why punish the guy that put one, two, three lapped cars between himself and the guy behind him????


Tough shit. And if he's so quick, he won't have any problems getting away again.

Absolutely MYSTIFYING why so many here call for the lapped cars to be let through then call NASCAR a faked sport. It is just the same as NASCAR.


We're not talking about NASCAR here.. I certainly didn't mention it.

#11 Zoony

Zoony
  • Member

  • 118 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:04

How about scrapping the safety car? If an incident is bad enough to need the SC, red-flag it. Or use the Dutch Code 40, slow everyone down to pit-lane speed.


Regarding the latter point, if they're all going slowly in line-astern and there are back-markers within that line, apart from the actual presence of the SC what would be the difference from the present system? They would surely still get in the way of the leaders at the re-start.

As I understand it, the rule was changed this year because it took too long for all the back-markers to overtake the SC, complete a lap at relatively high speed and catch up with the end of the queue.

If that is the case, is there any reason why the rules cannot be amended to allow the back-markers to simply let the lead-lap runners past them while they're all in the queue?

Wouldn't that save all the time and excessive speed etc that was the argument against letting the back-markers pass the SC, while at the same time get them out of the way of the leaders.

Or have I missed something?

#12 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:04

I don't even know what you're talking about.



That says it all really.

#13 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:04

Every time there is a change to the SC rules another shortcoming is found.

The current system is a decent one. The only real shortcoming is the disadvantage to those drivers who have just been lapped compared to those who just manage to avoid it. At the restart they are separated by one lap.

Having traffic/lapped cars in between the leaders is not a problem IMHO. If a car in front has managed to clear traffic during the race, why should that advantage be negated at a restart?

Edited by Dunder, 12 November 2010 - 17:08.


#14 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:05

Tough shit. And if he's so quick, he won't have any problems getting away again.


Maybe he's not so quick, maybe he's nursing a lead and was better at picking his way through traffic.

It's fake racing.


#15 plastik2k9

plastik2k9
  • Member

  • 507 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:05

I'm unsure about this issue. Getting backmarkers out of the way will create a better chance for some racing at the restart, but we have to decide whether we really want racing created artificially in that way.

Vettel had two cars in between him and Webber before the SC, so should he still have that after the SC? If yes, then do we simply need to get drivers to obey the blue flags correctly?

On the other hand, do we need to get these cars out of the way because the SC has created excessive bunching up and a mixture of very slow and very fast cars?

These issues (and others) are exactly why nobody will ever be 100% happy with the safety car system.

#16 Don_Humpador

Don_Humpador
  • Member

  • 2,223 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:06

Maybe he's not so quick, maybe he's nursing a lead and was better at picking his way through traffic.

It's fake racing.


The driver in the lead is a lap better than the guy in 2nd at driving through traffic? :stoned:

#17 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:07

The driver in the lead is a lap better than the guy in 2nd at driving through traffic? :stoned:


WHAT??????

#18 mkoscevic

mkoscevic
  • Member

  • 605 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:10

I agree with Rosberg; communication between Race Control, Teams and Drivers is the thing to improve here and everything's fine.

#19 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 1,365 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:11

Eh??????? So vettel puts two cars between himself and Webber then gets Webber up his arse for no good reason?? And i am rooting for Webber!!! it's completely unjust.

You've all gone stark raving bloody mad.


I half agree with you, and I found the unlapping a bit false.

The trouble at Brazil was the confusion of some drivers at knowing if they were racing for position or being lapped by the car directly behind - but I thought they got a blue light in the cockpit as well as on track when they were being lapped. Something out of nothing as far as I am concerned.


Advertisement

#20 MrAerodynamicist

MrAerodynamicist
  • Member

  • 13,630 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:12

The SC just reduces the gap anyway, said driver would have had to lap these cars in any event so why punish the guy that put one, two, three lapped cars between himself and the guy behind him????

While I mostly agree with you, there is one other factor: It's a lot easier to lap traffic when backmarkers are spaced out, whereas the problem in Brazil was that the SC bunched up the backmarkers. The consequence was they were too busy racing/defending to let the leaders through in a timely manner.

#21 flyer121

flyer121
  • Member

  • 4,570 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:15

The driver in the lead is a lap better than the guy in 2nd at driving through traffic? :stoned:


Its not about the lapped cars themselves but the guy running P2 and behind 2-3 lapped cars . No one is putting the P2 guy one lap down - he will get past them using blue flags once the race restarts.

Alfisti's point is that the leader who has handled the 2-3 lapped cars should retain the advantage because he lost time in getting past them in racing conditions (or perhaps was simply better at handling lapped traffic).

Edited by flyer121, 12 November 2010 - 17:17.


#22 6string

6string
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:17

This got me thinking of a solution to this problem. Instead of having backmarkers unlap themselves, how about this:

On the pit straight, all the cars on the lead lap take the right hand lane, and the lapped cars take the left hand lane. The cars in the left lane then slow down and reform onto the back of the train of cars in the right hand lane. That wouldn't be too hard to execute would it?

#23 Don_Humpador

Don_Humpador
  • Member

  • 2,223 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:19

WHAT??????


Calm down love. I meant a lapped car.

I find unlikely your situation arises where a guy finds himself in the lead because of being better in traffic, and then not having the pace to hold off the people behind him. What got him there in the first place? Another SC before?

#24 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Writer of 2013's Best Opening Post

  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:28

Let's call it out for what it is - most of us spend half the race praying for a safety car to make things interesting again anyway. Personally, I could care less about the disadvantage to the leader - safety cars have been a part of F1 for much longer than any of the current drivers have been, it's a part of racing and tough shit if it comes out when you've got a 40 second lead. That's just how it is. I don't think that letting lapped cars through so they restart in the order they are on the track is a bad idea at all - the leader's already getting slapped in the face 20 times, and letting the lapped cars by would just be a final, meaningless smack.

#25 BillBald

BillBald
  • Member

  • 3,031 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:33

Regarding the latter point, if they're all going slowly in line-astern and there are back-markers within that line, apart from the actual presence of the SC what would be the difference from the present system? They would surely still get in the way of the leaders at the re-start.

As I understand it, the rule was changed this year because it took too long for all the back-markers to overtake the SC, complete a lap at relatively high speed and catch up with the end of the queue.

If that is the case, is there any reason why the rules cannot be amended to allow the back-markers to simply let the lead-lap runners past them while they're all in the queue?

Wouldn't that save all the time and excessive speed etc that was the argument against letting the back-markers pass the SC, while at the same time get them out of the way of the leaders.

Or have I missed something?


Yes, you have.

It's F1 we're talking about, any reasonable suggestion will obviously be rejected out of hand.





#26 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,329 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:37

The solution is to improve the implementation and enforcement of the blue flag rule.

The safety car is there for safety reasons, not to let your favorite drivers have a go at the car in front.

#27 6string

6string
  • Member

  • 184 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:38

Regarding the latter point, if they're all going slowly in line-astern and there are back-markers within that line, apart from the actual presence of the SC what would be the difference from the present system? They would surely still get in the way of the leaders at the re-start.

As I understand it, the rule was changed this year because it took too long for all the back-markers to overtake the SC, complete a lap at relatively high speed and catch up with the end of the queue.

If that is the case, is there any reason why the rules cannot be amended to allow the back-markers to simply let the lead-lap runners past them while they're all in the queue?

Wouldn't that save all the time and excessive speed etc that was the argument against letting the back-markers pass the SC, while at the same time get them out of the way of the leaders.

Or have I missed something?


I missed this bit. I suggested the same thing. I think it's a great idea personally.

#28 Willow Rosenberg

Willow Rosenberg
  • Member

  • 355 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:49

Let's call it out for what it is - most of us spend half the race praying for a safety car to make things interesting again anyway. Personally, I could care less about the disadvantage to the leader - safety cars have been a part of F1 for much longer than any of the current drivers have been, it's a part of racing and tough shit if it comes out when you've got a 40 second lead. That's just how it is. I don't think that letting lapped cars through so they restart in the order they are on the track is a bad idea at all - the leader's already getting slapped in the face 20 times, and letting the lapped cars by would just be a final, meaningless smack.


While Barrichello and Schumacher are around, thats not strictly true. :) Although I agree with the rest.

It often seems people care more about entertainment than fairness.

Edited by Willow Rosenberg, 12 November 2010 - 17:49.


#29 Louis Siefert

Louis Siefert
  • Member

  • 266 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:54

races spoiled through ignorance of blue flags and mirrors.


a few Black Flags will quickly render mirrors relevant once again


#30 Hypnotise

Hypnotise
  • Member

  • 1,245 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 17:58

I mostly blame mirrors and communication for the events in Brazil,there is nothing wrong with the current saftey car rules. Why have mirrors when you can't use them in a propper way,doesn't make any sense.

#31 Louis Siefert

Louis Siefert
  • Member

  • 266 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 18:19

I mostly blame mirrors and communication for the events in Brazil,there is nothing wrong with the current saftey car rules. Why have mirrors when you can't use them in a propper way,doesn't make any sense.


perhaps along with a crash test perhaps we should have a reading test of the mirrors under controlled conditions... such as inducing a vibration into the chassis and having the official read a symbol chart placed at the rear or perhaps color schemes and driver number through the mirrors whilst performing a specific task in the cockpit in a certain time period :stoned:
this way without having a specification on rear view mirrors placement and size, functionality will be the design parameter


#32 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 35,886 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 12 November 2010 - 18:25

Regarding the latter point, if they're all going slowly in line-astern and there are back-markers within that line, apart from the actual presence of the SC what would be the difference from the present system? They would surely still get in the way of the leaders at the re-start.

The gaps would be preserved. So the blue flags would work better.

#33 Sausage

Sausage
  • Member

  • 1,795 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 18:53

I still think the way they do it now is most fair to everyone. Sometimes you get lucky, other times your screwed. The leader obviously has a benefit in most cases. (I find this a good thing)

Maybe it would be better for tv, but I think fairness is more important.

#34 Craven Morehead

Craven Morehead
  • Member

  • 4,484 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 November 2010 - 20:22

I would absolutely prefer that they let the lapped traffic through and restart them in race order. I want to see them fighting for position on track, the safety car is a great opportunity to reset the gaps and let them have at it again.

#35 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 20:24

I would absolutely prefer that they let the lapped traffic through and restart them in race order. I want to see them fighting for position on track, the safety car is a great opportunity to reset the gaps and let them have at it again.


So why not just do it every race then? Let's just bunch the field at random intervals to make it interesting, how's that?

#36 blackonyx4

blackonyx4
  • Member

  • 1,284 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 20:46

I still think the way they do it now is most fair to everyone. Sometimes you get lucky, other times your screwed. The leader obviously has a benefit in most cases. (I find this a good thing)

Maybe it would be better for tv, but I think fairness is more important.


No, it is not.

Any driver that was lap down prior to SC period, doesnt stand any chance to pass the driver in front anymore. In reality that driver was perhaps just a few seconds behind (Koba on new tires for example)...after SC period that difference is almost full lap. Zero chance to make progress from there...

#37 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,075 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 20:56

So why not just do it every race then? Let's just bunch the field at random intervals to make it interesting, how's that?

Because that's not why a safety car gets deployed?

Fact is when a safety car HAS to be deployed it HAS to be deployed, having backmarkers who are as idiotic as the lot in Brazil between the top drivers is potentially hazardous. If they actually moved out of the way like they're supposed to it wouldn't be a problem, if the delta in performance between them and the leaders was greater it wouldn't be a problem - but the fact is the last weekend we were robbed of a great finish by a bunch of idiots fighting among themselves.

It's not fake, it's circumstance - shit happens. I'd rather see them race to the end head to head.

Edited by Ricardo F1, 12 November 2010 - 20:57.


#38 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 21:13

It's not fake, it's circumstance - shit happens. I'd rather see them race to the end head to head.


No, no it's not at all. Circumstance is the SC being deployed and there being two cars between the leaders. Fake is removing the two cars, who were there anyway!

I have no issue with people saying they prefer it but call it what it is, artificially spicing up the show for no good reason.

The idiot back markers were already causing webber grief anyway, frankly i twas more luck than anything as Seb was catching them on the straight and mark just after T1. Nothing changed with the SC being deployed except Mark would have been closer if he'd managed to clear the two back markers faster than he did.

#39 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 12 November 2010 - 21:54

No, no it's not at all. Circumstance is the SC being deployed and there being two cars between the leaders. Fake is removing the two cars, who were there anyway!

I have no issue with people saying they prefer it but call it what it is, artificially spicing up the show for no good reason.

The idiot back markers were already causing webber grief anyway, frankly i twas more luck than anything as Seb was catching them on the straight and mark just after T1. Nothing changed with the SC being deployed except Mark would have been closer if he'd managed to clear the two back markers faster than he did.


Actually it was more that Seb was catching them on the straight and Webber being 1.5-2 secs back was getting to the backmarkers just as they hit the twisty middle sector.

So if it was just luck as to where Seb and Mark for instance were catching the backmarkers on track, why not just get those cars out of the way?

Advertisement

#40 eff1fan

eff1fan
  • Member

  • 295 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 21:57

Circumstance is the SC being deployed and there being two cars between the leaders. Fake is removing the two cars, who were there anyway!


I agree, the SC picks up the leader and everyone stays in their position.
Whatever they do they need to insure that the major screwups the SC created this year are not repeated.
One could argue that without the disadvantage that it created for Alonso on two separate occasions, the championship might look very different now.


#41 HAM

HAM
  • Member

  • 531 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:03

The problem is that some drivers do not obey the blue flag directly but wait a half lap or more, we could see that in Interlagos a lot.

#42 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 26,016 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:03

Actually it was more that Seb was catching them on the straight and Webber being 1.5-2 secs back was getting to the backmarkers just as they hit the twisty middle sector.


Yeah the bit after T1 :)


#43 Frank Tuesday

Frank Tuesday
  • Member

  • 816 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:08

They have the technology to force the gaps at the green to be the same as at the beginning of the safety car. That would allow the workers to clear the track safely and to allow everyone to keep their earned gap. I will hate any system other than this. I'd rather my favorite driver lost than win because he was gifted 30 seconds. I hated that Rubens first victory was because of this. His drive was brilliant, but he shouldn't have been at the front.

#44 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Writer of 2013's Best Opening Post

  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:13

I know it would be unfair to the leader to have the lapped cars waved around, but if I'm honest, I don't care about that at all. Any positive feelings I would have for that evaporate the second the green flag flies and the leader screams off into the distance, never to be seen again, while the guy in second place has to wait what feels like an eternity to me, let alone him, to be able chase after him.

#45 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 5,386 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:17

Yeah the bit after T1 :)


Well actually that bit comes after Turn 4...  ;)

What complicated things is also the HRTs, Lotuses, Virgins etc are all reasonably quick in a straight line but not around corners - whereas the RBRs are fast around the corners and average in a straight line. If an RBR can't pass on a straight they seem to lose more time compared to others because all of their pace is made in the corners.

#46 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:24

Everything was perfectly visible for the pit wall, the problem was that the drivers that was about to get lapped was not told so. Would have been easy enough. "Hamilton is behind you, you must let him by". Blue flags is useless when they so tightly packed.

#47 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,458 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:25

well the current rules screws whoever is behind lapped traffic, in racing conditions with the ZOMFGMOVEOUTTHEWAYALREADY!!!! blue flags leaders lose not much on normal running with lapping. on a restart those behind cant clear the lapped quickly, and also the lapped tend to get "jumped" by the leader on restarts.

lapped cars are in a horrible situation, got to let the right guys past, while also racing and not losing position to those they are directly racing against, and with the current blue flag rules, thats a really tough thing

tbh its far better to let the lapped cars get 1 lap back, and restart the race in race order

#48 marcm

marcm
  • Member

  • 166 posts
  • Joined: March 09

Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:55

Anything that increases time under the safety car is a bad thing in my book. In the previous rules - waiting an extra 3+ laps for lapped cars to unlap themselves was extremely boring.
That system also unfairly disavantaged the leading cars. Suddenly those at the back of the lead lap - often 1min + behind have nothing to lose by pitting for fresh rubber and restart just a few car lengths behind the leader. At least with the current system they then have to negotate the backmarkers so the leaders retain some of the advantage that they earnt.
Don't turn f1 into Nascar!

Sure the drivers are whinging because its hard for them, but they are looking out for their own interests not the sport. The old rules would have benefited all of them except for Vettel - of course you are going to be keen on the idea if you drive for a slower team!
Fact is - it was entertaining racing watching the drivers have to pick their way through the back markers - and the better drivers made progress quicker.

Edited by marcm, 12 November 2010 - 22:59.


#49 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,075 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 12 November 2010 - 23:17

No, no it's not at all. Circumstance is the SC being deployed and there being two cars between the leaders. Fake is removing the two cars, who were there anyway!

Not exactly ; because in non-fake nay normal circumstances those cars wouldn't be bottled and wouldn't be racing each other and thus would be easier to pass and would let the leaders go easier. So keeping them there is as fake as not, it throws it to the leader.


#50 engel

engel
  • Member

  • 5,029 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 12 November 2010 - 23:31

There are no "perfect" rules, they revert to allowing lapped cars to overtake, take an extra 3-4 laps to remove the SC and people will whine. Make that close to the end of the race and people will say their driver was "robbed" cause the extra long stupid SC period didn't leave him enough time to come up with that overtake he was bound to make if only he had an extra 2-3 laps.

Current system is fine, gets rid of the SC reasonably quickly and doesn't affect track positioning. Lapped cars were still on the drivers way SC or no SC. Removing them is a distinct benefit to those behind lapped cars, leaving them there is just maintaining the race status quo just getting rid of the gaps. Least intrusive intervention the SC can make IMO