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Betting and F1


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#1 grandmastashi

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:22

So a conversation with my Dad regarding Sunday's race and team orders in general raised the issue of betting on F1.

He suggested that there's a fundamental grey area when you can place a bet on a sport where non competing participants (ie team members) can have a hand through team orders in manipulating the eventual result and taking it away from purely the driver's efforts on track.

Whilst team orders have always been part of F1 one way or another for better or worse (and you'd assume that people betting on it are aware of this), I think it's an interesting point. If there's any suggestion of 'match fixing' in other sports than could have artificially manipulated the result, investigations are called.

Just to point out this thread is not about bashing anyone in particular re last Sunday or any other occasion, or making any suggestion of improper behaviour regarding 'fixing' I just thought it would be good to gauge views on the issue. After all, nowadays you can bet on the result of WWE wrestling matches, which if you follow the ebb and flow of the storylines makes it fairly easy to predict.

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#2 Rinehart

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:28

Whether or not team orders are right in the sporting sense is one thing. But the answer to your question is simple. People shouldn't bet on a sport they don't understand.

#3 SamH123

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 09:43

I'm not exactly sure what your point is. Team orders are a part of the sport so affect how the market is priced up. For example Webber went off at almost 4/1 when he qualified pole last year in South Korea because only Vettel had a decent shot at the championship

#4 windtravels

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:03

Yes this does get reflected in the odds - this weekend massa was 9/1 for the win and alonso 2/1 despite massa qualifying ahead of alonso. In this case I thought the odds were worth a stab at massa - didnt work out of course - but other weekends I would never bet on massa...

But then I also bet on VDG to finish the race at 1.5/1 which was a bigger bet and covered my loss from the massa bet. Thanks VDG.

I think it does come down to understanding the sport as someone said earlier, and deciding when it is worth it and when it isn't. I nearly bet on hamilton for the podium, which team orders would have helped with - so it cuts both ways.

#5 The Kanisteri

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 10:34

Betting tip: Never place Felipe Massa ahead of Fernando Alonso.;)

#6 noikeee

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 12:51

This was the original reason why they banned team orders in the aftermath of Austria 2002 IIRC, because of betting (although the PR backlash can't have helped) but they've come recently to the more sensible conclusion that team orders are impossible to ban, they might as well just let everyone be completely open about them. Betting houses may not like it but have to put up with it, so it gets reflected in the odds.

#7 Kalmake

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 13:14

So a conversation with my Dad regarding Sunday's race and team orders in general raised the issue of betting on F1.

He suggested that there's a fundamental grey area when you can place a bet on a sport where non competing participants (ie team members) can have a hand through team orders in manipulating the eventual result and taking it away from purely the driver's efforts on track.


But they are competing participants. It's a team sport, even the WDC. I'm fairly certain FIA, like every sports organization, has rules against betting on your own events.

Team orders certainly annoy gamblers and bookmakers, but F1 doesn't really care. Some sports have bookmakers as major sponsors so they have to worry about such things.

#8 selespeed

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:19

Team orders certainly annoy gamblers and bookmakers, but F1 doesn't really care.



yep...i was activly betting on f1 in 2002. mostly on qualifying (very succesfully) but i had a bet on 4 races...and 2 of those 4 were austria and indianapolis...i still have a ticket if i ever meet michael schumacher! :lol:

#9 alfa1

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:21

So a conversation with my Dad regarding Sunday's race and team orders in general raised the issue of betting on F1.



After the 1998 Australian Grand Prix, in which Coulrthard and Häkkinen swapped places, there was a lot of anger from punters who felt they'd been cheated.

Ron Dennis said something to the effect of "never bet on a sport you dont fully understand."
I think that wise advice is still true today.



#10 John Player

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:34

Betting tip: Never place Felipe Massa ahead of Fernando Alonso.;)


Last weekend it was a good bet.

#11 The Kanisteri

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:35

After the 1998 Australian Grand Prix, in which Coulrthard and Häkkinen swapped places, there was a lot of anger from punters who felt they'd been cheated.

Ron Dennis said something to the effect of "never bet on a sport you dont fully understand."
I think that wise advice is still true today.


Though they swap places and some say it was team order, it base based on screwed up pitstop run for Mika who enter pit which was not scheduled and he drove through it losing position to David Coulthard for no reason.
Without swap it would have looked out more team order gave victory to David. I see in case none was cheated there.

Edited by The Kanisteri, 26 March 2013 - 14:38.


#12 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:35

After the 1998 Australian Grand Prix, in which Coulrthard and Häkkinen swapped places, there was a lot of anger from punters who felt they'd been cheated.

After Ferrari's team orders in Hockenheim 2010, some bookies refunded any bets that had been placed on Massa. Although at the time team orders were illegal, which is an important difference. If you're betting on a sport where orders between team mates are part of the rules, then that can't be considered 'fixing' – it's just part of the game.

#13 The Kanisteri

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:37

Last weekend it was a good bet.


I admid I placed it wrong, due not counting on Alonso retired from race.
But I would say Massa's position is not safe in race even if Alonso is 4 positions weaker place. He would be told to let faster Alonso ahead of him.;)

#14 Rob

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:40

Team orders in the Tour de France too. No one worries about that.

#15 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:40

I think the betting side of it is a fair point but..

I think it's silly to bet on sports in the first place.

I think it's even sillier to bet on F1.. whether team orders are allowed or not.

#16 Myrvold

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 14:57

Team orders in the Tour de France* too. No one worries about that.


*Cycling
But that is something different again. In race you kinda expect drivers to be able to fight in the second race, and you don't know about the secret deal inside the teams.
In cycling, all the riders roles are predefined, and there for all to see. If you bet on Hincapie to win TdF, you know you are gambling, as he is a protected rider (A rider that are there to help the captain, but might get his own chances on 1 or 2 stages).
There was nothing to indicate that Rosberg shouldn't be allowed to pass Hamilton at Malaysia.

#17 joshb

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 16:22

Betting tip: Never place Felipe Massa ahead of Fernando Alonso.;)


When was the last time FM finished ahead when both finished?
I'm guessing China 2011 or something

Edited by joshb, 26 March 2013 - 16:22.


#18 OneAndOnly

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 18:05

As someone who works in gambling/betting industry I can tell that bookies don't like team orders :) .
Anything that can "give away" result of sports event is not welcome in betting industry. You can't ever be 100% sure of match outcome, but these things make some outcomes more likely and that's where the problem is.
This could get some offers for F1 blocked for good.

#19 TimRTC

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 19:34

Surely team orders of a sort exist in all team sports - afterall even in the nation's beloved football, a team winning in the first half might play defensively in the second or take off their key strikers to avoid injury and therefore win by a far lesser margin than anticipated or even play out to a draw in the second leg of a cup match.

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#20 Kalmake

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 20:54

I think the betting side of it is a fair point but..

I think it's silly to bet on sports in the first place.

I think it's even sillier to bet on F1.. whether team orders are allowed or not.


Why is it sillier to bet on sports and F1 as opposed to something else? Most people bet for entertainment on something they will watch anyway. If you want to be more serious and beat the bookmaker, why is that harder in F1?

#21 DS27

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 09:02

I think the betting side of it is a fair point but..

I think it's silly to bet on sports in the first place.

I think it's even sillier to bet on F1.. whether team orders are allowed or not.


Why?

Much better to 'bet' on 6 random balls that may come out of a lottery machine?

#22 Sausage

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 19:03

After Ferrari's team orders in Hockenheim 2010, some bookies refunded any bets that had been placed on Massa. Although at the time team orders were illegal, which is an important difference. If you're betting on a sport where orders between team mates are part of the rules, then that can't be considered 'fixing' – it's just part of the game.

One Aussie bookie did just that for people who bet on Webber last sunday: http://www.gpupdate....to-be-refunded/

So it's possible for anti-fixing to happen. Also look for the olympic badminton scandal last year. Some teams tried to lose on purpose to get better matchups later wich led to horrifying matches for spectators, a true travesty, but they were all dq'd. How different is it for F1 spectators? hard to say. So it really depends on the sport what is acceptable and as a better you better (err) take it into account :)

#23 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 02:56

Vettel at 3.5 on Betfair for the win. The Barca front row spell is against him but I think with the tyre munching Mercs on the front row with only a tenth or so pace advantage I can see Vettel walking this one. Would like to see Ham or Ros hold on but Vettel/RB will be too strong in the race I think, look how he destroyed the Mercs in the race in Bahrain even though Rosberg detroyed the field there in Q.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 12 May 2013 - 02:57.


#24 BoozeBaron

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:11

But they are 'm fairly certain FIA, like every sports organization, has rules against betting on your own events.


I'd heard that Jenson placed 50K on himself to win the WDC midseason with Brawn... If true, I have a bigger problem with that really...


#25 Zoetrope

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:23

I wanted to bet pole&win for Lewis in Monaco right from the beginning of the season, but with yesterday's Qualy results they surely gonna lower the odds! *First world problems* :lol:

#26 SamH123

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:30

I'd heard that Jenson placed 50K on himself to win the WDC midseason with Brawn... If true, I have a bigger problem with that really...


Where did you hear that?
50k is a pretty huge bet in the WDC market, it would arouse big suspicion at a bookmaker and probably become a story

#27 Snic

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:57

I'd heard that Jenson placed 50K on himself to win the WDC midseason with Brawn... If true, I have a bigger problem with that really...


It's illegal to bet on yourself in sport, and even more illegal if you start boasting about it afterward :)

#28 Cavani

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:57

as ever , never ever discard alonso when his car works

#29 SuperSoft

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:03

It's illegal to bet on yourself in sport, and even more illegal if you start boasting about it afterward :)


Certainly not. The law has nothing to do with it. In some sports they may well have rules about betting, for instance in Horse Racing jockeys are not allowed to bet at all, but it is not illegal.

Anyway, absolutely nothing wrong with betting on yourself at all, it shows nothing more than you are trying to win. It would be having a bet on someone else to win that would be a huge issue.



#30 03011969

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:53

If people choose to bet that is their (mostly foolish) decision.

Must be horrible to not be able to enjoy sport without having a bet riding on it - kind of misses the point every time (except horse racing, which highlights what a dull sport that really is).

#31 Skinnyguy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:14

Team orders in the Tour de France too. No one worries about that.


In cycling every rider performance and abilities are much more predictable and easier to anticipate than in motorsport. From day one in a 3 weeks race, you know which of your rider/s actually has a chance to win the race, a stage... anything. So teamwork is effectively the only way to maximize your chances to win. You know for a fact you have ONE guy capable to do the job, so you support him on whatever this task is.

In motorsport there are much more surprises. Anyone can beat anyone and things can reverse easily. In cycling these changes in pecking order happen over years, in motorsport over weekends.




#32 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:26

as ever , never ever discard alonso when his car works


Knew he had a chance but didnt foresee that, one of his best wins. Forget about the tyres, his opening lap was one of the best of recent years considering how difficult Barca is to overtake.

#33 Frank Grimes

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:26

Punters should only be looking for very long odds when contemplating betting on number two drivers. I would never consider Webber were his odd less than 4x Vettel's. I'd need to see 8x for picking Massa over Alonso.



#34 Beamer

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:20

I'd be more worried about race-fixing (like match-fixing in football ). It sooooo easy to do that in F1.... All you need is an engineer messing up a wheelchange, a lollipop guy releasing too early, an engineer making a small 'mistake' in setup...





#35 TimRTC

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:55

TBH I cannot see race fixing in motor sport as being to great a concern. It is too random. A team might fix a delay to let another car lead, but there are a thousand things that might stop them winning. Too many different people involved.

Most modern fixing involves in game betting on a specific event as it happens, where only one person needs to be bribed and that is not something you really get in motorsport (or can you bet on the length of a FIndia pitstop?!)

Edited by TimRTC, 15 May 2013 - 11:56.


#36 Imperial

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:31

I recall back in the day that Eddie Irvine made a boast about having raked in a huge sum of money, having bet several thousand on Michael Schumacher to win a race. Eddie just happened to be his team mate at the time.

He never elaborated on whether he himself placed the bet or if he got a mate to do it for him (this was pre-internet betting of course), but whether it was him or someone else placing the bet on his behalf it raised several questions and certainly calls into questions sporting ethics.

#37 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:17

Punters should only be looking for very long odds when contemplating betting on number two drivers. I would never consider Webber were his odd less than 4x Vettel's. I'd need to see 8x for picking Massa over Alonso.


Vettel is 4.9 and Webber 15.5. Both pretty awesome bets considering 3rd and 4th behind the tyre eaters. Webber is a Monaco specialist too. Understand the team situation but I'm tempted with a split bet.

#38 wattoroos

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:46

I've got Alonso at 15.00 and Vettel at 4.5, probably a better option than Webber and he might even get Webber off the line, but knowing my luck, a Mercedes will win

#39 olliek88

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:04

Stuck a bit of money on kimi at 18.00, hoping they can pull off a one stopper, stand to win £300 if it comes in. Lotus's get lucky hastag seems appropriate!

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#40 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23

Ok so spread a tenner amongst the following: got points finish for Gro at 4.6 (can't believe I've bet on him!) Webber podium at 4.5ish amd Vettel win at same.

Edit: ****ed up already. Gro was on top 6 finish not points. Doh. Must be stuck in the 90s.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 26 May 2013 - 09:32.


#41 joshb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:45

I've had a shocking weekend... why do I keep doubting Seb, he comes up trumps every time!

£3.75 on Webber to beat Vettel in FP2 at 11/10 (won- returns £7.87)
£5 e/w on Massa pole at 28/1 (LOL)
£5 on Grosjean to outqualify Kimi at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 on Webber to outqualify Vettel at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 e/w on Webber to win at 14/1
£5 on Alonso podium at 4/6
£5 on Ferrari Double points finish at 8/13

Not looking good!

#42 wattoroos

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:47

Ok so spread a tenner amongst the following: got points finish for Gro at 4.6 (can't believe I've bet on him!) Webber podium at 4.5ish amd Vettel win at same.

Edit: ****ed up already. Gro was on top 6 finish not points. Doh. Must be stuck in the 90s.

haha I was going to say, Grosjean at 4.6, who the hell are you getting those odds with, he still might pinch a sixth if there is some problems at the start and he gets through

#43 Snic

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:04

I've had a shocking weekend... why do I keep doubting Seb, he comes up trumps every time!

£3.75 on Webber to beat Vettel in FP2 at 11/10 (won- returns £7.87)
£5 e/w on Massa pole at 28/1 (LOL)
£5 on Grosjean to outqualify Kimi at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 on Webber to outqualify Vettel at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 e/w on Webber to win at 14/1
£5 on Alonso podium at 4/6
£5 on Ferrari Double points finish at 8/13

Not looking good!


Suck up the losses and don't rage bet! Betting on Webber seemed a good option till that final run in Q3, I made the same mistake in Catalunya.. Never again.
I usually only bet on one or two outcomes at most per GP.. Doubled my money this season already :)

#44 froggy22

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:18

My Rosberg for pole bet came off, now for Webber to complete a good weekend for me

#45 wattoroos

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:58

I've had a shocking weekend... why do I keep doubting Seb, he comes up trumps every time!

£3.75 on Webber to beat Vettel in FP2 at 11/10 (won- returns £7.87)
£5 e/w on Massa pole at 28/1 (LOL)
£5 on Grosjean to outqualify Kimi at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 on Webber to outqualify Vettel at 7/4 (LOL)
£5 e/w on Webber to win at 14/1
£5 on Alonso podium at 4/6
£5 on Ferrari Double points finish at 8/13

Not looking good!

How come you don't bet on Vettel?, pretty unlucky with Grosjean and Massa though, he could still get points though

#46 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 12:52

Thanks for the SC, Massa :wave: Greened my book :up: Just need Vettel to outsmart Merc (not hard) and 2 of my bets come in :)

#47 noikeee

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:22

I followed the lead of someone at the live chat who was saying mid-race Rosberg for the win was looking like a very safe bet. Put 3€ at 1.40 there, great tip.

Gutierrez to DNF at 2.72 seemed like good value prior to the race so I put 0.50€, but he somehow made it to the end without noobing it up into the wall.

Edited by noikeee, 26 May 2013 - 15:22.


#48 joshb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:05

How come you don't bet on Vettel?, pretty unlucky with Grosjean and Massa though, he could still get points though


Tend to bet against my wishes for Seb so that I get some consolation if he has a bad race... and to be fair, Monaco is not one of his tracks!


#49 wattoroos

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:07

Tend to bet against my wishes for Seb so that I get some consolation if he has a bad race... and to be fair, Monaco is not one of his tracks!

haha I do the same with Webber but that has worked out pretty well this year so far, and looking at the other bets you had this weekend... ouch!

#50 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 21:58

Bottas top 6 and Hamilton podium. All over it as going to rain for race tomo.