143 replies to this topic

[redreni]

There's actually footage of everything that was said to lewis, I would post the video but it's not allowed. It sounded like they were trying to stitch him up.

Or trying to make him go slower so that he would make it to the end, maybe? If you tell your driver to stick to a delta and he says "but won't I get overtaken?" you say "no", not because it's true necessarily but because if you say yes he will take it as giving him carte blanche to exceed his delta.

I don't have time now, but maybe someone can do it - the way to get to the bottom of this is to establish on what lap Button passed Hamilton and then look at the data to see what laptimes they both did that time around. Button apparently said his delta was "1-31s" which is rather vague. Did he go under it to pass Hamilton?

[SpaMaster]

Saying that Hamilton was doing the donkey job for team and Button is quite a spin. It is quite natural when you fight with someone that you lose time, similarly when you chase someone you would lose some for it. Yes the Red Bull duo crashed. But they did not have to. In that case, Hamilton would have eventually come under attack from Button. That means McLaren was taking a risk and making a false attack on Red Bull without really having the pace to go the distance. If you want to mess up another team that badly, be prepared to face the same as well. In reality, it was not that complicated. Hamilton wanted to attack Red Bull. He did. But that put him under attack from Button. There is nothing unfair about it. Button was fully entitled to attack in that case. Hamilton was not chasing Red Bull earlier under Button's instructions.

[redreni]

It doesn't work both ways, you can't say one driver is lying and the other isn't.....how does any of us know that Button wasn't BS'ing then to cover himself??? Also remember team orders were illegal, MW isn't gonna come out and say he knowingly broke the rules by telling his drivers hold station is he?? Think about it....

It's like being stuck in groundhog day listening to you lot tear peices out of each other when nothing can be proved.....

But notice how I didn't accuse anyone of lying. I accused Hamilton of lacking the courage to lie. The main reason I tend towards believing Button's account is that Hamilton has deliberately stopped short of actually accusing him of trying to steal the win off him, whilst heavily implying it, which is typical of his kind of spin. If Button is lying, then Hamilton is under-stating his own case by carefully wording his BBC column to avoid actually coming out and saying that Button disobeyed instructions.

[halifaxf1fan]

Always an excuse Hockenheim 2008 was a team order to move over, period. If that wasnt clear enough then Heikkis reluctance to say it wasnt should testify to that.

And while we are at the fuel loads, Heikki was made to bend over so much for mr 'i have earned my every point' Hamilton, that he had to qualify with a much heavier car in 16 out of 2008 18 races.

No, this new Lewis Hamilton'column' is just as Disney like as the previous one, shining brightly on whatever Hamilton supposedly does and did.

Heikki was also moved over for Hamilton in France 2008. But Hamilton had gained an advantage by cutting a chicane and was later penalized so no points came of that team order, had it worked though Heikki would have given Hamilton fourth place or even a podium finish. It didn't work out but at least they tried!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 April 2013 - 16:18.

[trogggy]

the way to get to the bottom of this is to establish on what lap Button passed Hamilton and then look at the data to see what laptimes they both did that time around. Button apparently said his delta was "1-31s" which is rather vague. Did he go under it to pass Hamilton?

Laptimes
Laps 44-48:

Hamilton: 1:30.7, 1:30.6, 1:30.4, 1:30.7, 1:33.0

Button: 1:30.8, 1:30.2, 1:30.5, 1:30.9, 1:31.9

Spot the odd one out (I've made it easy).

[P123]

But notice how I didn't accuse anyone of lying. I accused Hamilton of lacking the courage to lie. The main reason I tend towards believing Button's account is that Hamilton has deliberately stopped short of actually accusing him of trying to steal the win off him, whilst heavily implying it, which is typical of his kind of spin. If Button is lying, then Hamilton is under-stating his own case by carefully wording his BBC column to avoid actually coming out and saying that Button disobeyed instructions.

No doubt he has his suspicions. His face on the podium said it all, despite him winning. McLaren put it down to a miscommunication. JB thought they were still racing, LH perhaps lulled into a false sense of security given the 'opinion' from the pitwall thought they weren't.

[mlsnoopy]

Laptimes
Laps 44-48:

Hamilton: 1:30.7, 1:30.6, 1:30.4, 1:30.7, 1:33.0

Button: 1:30.8, 1:30.2, 1:30.5, 1:30.9, 1:31.9

Spot the odd one out (I've made it easy).

Is that the lap that Button attacked him and he had to take the slower defensive line, loosing time.

[Grundle]

Laptimes
Laps 44-48:

Hamilton: 1:30.7, 1:30.6, 1:30.4, 1:30.7, 1:33.0

Button: 1:30.8, 1:30.2, 1:30.5, 1:30.9, 1:31.9

Spot the odd one out (I've made it easy).

He could he easily have lost a second or more fighting Button.

[redreni]

Laptimes
Laps 44-48:

Hamilton: 1:30.7, 1:30.6, 1:30.4, 1:30.7, 1:33.0

Button: 1:30.8, 1:30.2, 1:30.5, 1:30.9, 1:31.9

Spot the odd one out (I've made it easy).

Right, that confirms my initial gut reaction that it was BS. I don't claim any genius for working that out, by the way. What Hamilton says is mainly BS.

Next interesting question is were they still driving to a delta when Hamilton passed Button? And did Hamilton go under it to pass Button. From memory, the move was in turn 1. If so, if he exceeded the delta to get a run on Button it would be the laptime for the lap before the pass was made that would be relevant.

[SmokeScreen]

1st tale that LH has told out of school now that he has left Macca... am sure it wont be the last

He knows were the bodies are buried and is preparing to dig them up.

While my fellow fanboi's chew that Turkey fat don't forget the other branches shooting out from this here tree.

The pattern I see emerging – if talking heads make 'false' claims about him or offer unsolicited advise via national and international media outlets as they tend to do then he reserves the right to respond in his BBC column – I wonder what levels of discomfort this will cause BBC's chums...
.
.
.
Mercedes Team Orders? Whitmarsh & co and the media briefing apparatus
1. Whitmarsh don't take that holier than thou attitude about drivers and team orders– you are a fine one to talk, in 2007 I was hired as a number 2 and was treated so at the beginning of the season..
2. Jenson sush your mouth – Turkey 2010? you shouldn't even be talking.

Mercedes contract? sky sports – Mclaren & media leaking apparatus
1. I have told you on numerous occasions it is not in my contract, Brawn has told you, Rosberg has confirmed from his perspective. Where the hell does Brundle come up with this certainty on No1 in contract which he then has the audacity to share with all and sundry? BRUNDLE (ex drivers who have no idea)...READ MY LIPS
2. I was offered more money to stay at Mclaren. Anyone saying I left for more money is lying. (but wait a mo – that doesn't actually reflect too well on you now does it? Presumed better car and more money rejected!! you don't say. My point exactly the less said the better)


Malaysia 13? To Podium or not to Podium - Eh Nico
1. yeah Nico deserved 3rd but did he? He needed to pass me first and even then on further reflection I have come to the realisation that I had earned my right to be in front of him for ¾ of the race. (and after all Nico did also want Team orders too just not the one he got- Ok he didn't imply this but I couldn't resist )
2. I emailed Brawn … (do tell Lewis what was Brawn's response?).. .. then I worked overtime


Guy has sworn allegiance to Mercedes and is letting “them” know that any shots fired in his or his team's direction will generate a public response. Lewis is in feisty mode and the BBC column is now his propaganda war machine – see how he has linked it to his twitter page. Lewis & Twitter a match made in PR heaven .


Personally I think his column will eventually generate a thread of its own – this will not be the only controversial article he publishes.

More to the racing point i'm loving how he is pushing and everyone around him, including Nico, is pushing too.

[trogggy]

Is that the lap that Button attacked him and he had to take the slower defensive line, loosing time.

I think that's probably the lap Button used the banana skin and the triple red shells.

[Grundle]

Wasn't Buttons race engineer mysteriously taken Ill after this race, never to return. Hmmmm like Dave Ryan, but without the media furore perhaps.

[redreni]

He could he easily have lost a second or more fighting Button.

But Button didn't exceed the delta, that's the point. If the delta was given as a laptime and Button stuck to it, Button obeyed his instructions - end of. Even if Hamilton was only slow because Button made sure he was slow, that's not cheating, it's Button using his brain. If McLaren wanted Button to hold station they should have had a code for that and they should have used it. If they didn't have a code and they just gave him a delta and he stuck to it, you cannot criticise him for that and neither could McLaren.

[study]

But Button didn't exceed the delta, that's the point. If the delta was given as a laptime and Button stuck to it, Button obeyed his instructions - end of. Even if Hamilton was only slow because Button made sure he was slow, that's not cheating, it's Button using his brain. If McLaren wanted Button to hold station they should have had a code for that and they should have used it. If they didn't have a code and they just gave him a delta and he stuck to it, you cannot criticise him for that and neither could McLaren.

What is then "No Lewis if you go slower, Button won't overtake."

[Boxerevo]

I think that's probably the lap Button used the banana skin and the triple red shells.

[MightyMoose]

Wasn't Buttons race engineer mysteriously taken Ill after this race, never to return. Hmmmm like Dave Ryan, but without the media furore perhaps.

That "link" has less grip than a 50 lap run on Pirelli Super Softs. Nothing like the Dave Ryan situation at all and it's poor form imo to even try to say it is.

If you want to intimate that JB's engineer disregarded an instruction from above to pass on the appropriate message to JB during the race and was then "removed", go for it. You may even find some credence & support for it is out there.

[P123]

Laptimes
Laps 44-48:

Hamilton: 1:30.7, 1:30.6, 1:30.4, 1:30.7, 1:33.0

Button: 1:30.8, 1:30.2, 1:30.5, 1:30.9, 1:31.9

Spot the odd one out (I've made it easy).

Ok, so 1s lost in the little battle with JB at the chicane (going by JB's lap) and the rest plausibly 'lost' by him being told JB would not pass if he slowed.

[P123]

But Button didn't exceed the delta, that's the point. If the delta was given as a laptime and Button stuck to it, Button obeyed his instructions - end of. Even if Hamilton was only slow because Button made sure he was slow, that's not cheating, it's Button using his brain. If McLaren wanted Button to hold station they should have had a code for that and they should have used it. If they didn't have a code and they just gave him a delta and he stuck to it, you cannot criticise him for that and neither could McLaren.

Nor can you criticise Hamilton if he slowed due to the pitwall communication that JB would not pass if he did so. Is it too complex to consider all sides, or simply inconveniant? The team called it a miscommunication. It was that, and then some depending on the angle of your tinfoil hat.

Edited by P123, 12 April 2013 - 16:40.

[redreni]

What is then "No Lewis if you go slower, Button won't overtake."

Nobody told Button that. Ask Phil Prue.

[Ellios]

lovin the regurgitation of the 2010 incident and use of additional ancillary racing activities to suit, for my tuppence worth - I don't believe a word Whitmarsh said!

[halifaxf1fan]

But Button didn't exceed the delta, that's the point. If the delta was given as a laptime and Button stuck to it, Button obeyed his instructions - end of. Even if Hamilton was only slow because Button made sure he was slow, that's not cheating, it's Button using his brain. If McLaren wanted Button to hold station they should have had a code for that and they should have used it. If they didn't have a code and they just gave him a delta and he stuck to it, you cannot criticise him for that and neither could McLaren.

The 'cheating' if any in this episode would have been Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car. A clear benefit for Hamilton from a team order designed to give him an uncontested win.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 April 2013 - 17:01.

[P123]

Nobody told Button that. Ask Phil Prue.

Duh- it was said to Hamilton.... you see, one of the two drivers involved? I suspect I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to somebody with such a strong gut feeling..... JB may have been 100% innocent (probably was), but to bring back to the actual specifics of the topic, Hamilton was led to believe that JB would not pass. It was explicitly stated to him on the radio. Naturally he would then be surprised that he was passed, which he quickly rectified. Naturally he can empathise with somebody who has lost position in a similar manner. It doesn't mean that Button did the same as Webber, that Hamilton is accusing him of such or that Hamilton is making stuff up (that rests with the folks on ths thread).

[P123]

The 'cheating' in this episode was Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car. A clear benefit for Hamilton from a team order designed to give him an uncontested win.

Except he didn't ask for that. In the true spirit of this topic, you're misinformed, or lieing to make your point.

[trogggy]

The 'cheating' in this episode was Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car.

Nice story, never happened.

[bourbon]

1st tale that LH has told out of school now that he has left Macca... am sure it wont be the last

That is bad form on the part of Lewis. Leave the past in the past as there is nothing to gain from showing up Macca at this point. Turkey 2010 wasn't "like Mark's Malaysia situation" no matter how you spin it because Lewis won. The same happened with Lewis in Malayasia, so both would be poor examples of that.

As to the other point he raised in the article, Lewis was handed the win in both cases by his team and his teammate forced to back off based on yet another nefarious positional team order. This is not to be held against Lewis, but rather against Macca and Mercedes, because team orders were anti-racing. That is what gets overlooked in all of this - sadly.

Edited by bourbon, 12 April 2013 - 17:04.

[halifaxf1fan]

Nice story, never happened.

Sure it did,

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

I don't agree with calling it cheating but it was an order prompted by LH to provide him an uncontested win against his teammate who obviously had more left in the tank.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 April 2013 - 17:16.

[trogggy]

Sure it did,

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

I don't agree with calling it cheating but it was an order prompted by LH to provide an uncontested win against his teammate who obviously had more left in the tank.

The gist of it was:
'Slow down Lewis'
'If I slow down is Jenson going to pass me?' - the sub-text being 'because if he is you can F right off mate...'
'No Lewis'

There was no request.
You made that up.

[redreni]

Duh- it was said to Hamilton.... you see, one of the two drivers involved? I suspect I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to somebody with such a strong gut feeling..... JB may have been 100% innocent (probably was), but to bring back to the actual specifics of the topic, Hamilton was led to believe that JB would not pass. It was explicitly stated to him on the radio. Naturally he would then be surprised that he was passed, which he quickly rectified. Naturally he can empathise with somebody who has lost position in a similar manner. It doesn't mean that Button did the same as Webber, that Hamilton is accusing him of such or that Hamilton is making stuff up (that rests with the folks on ths thread).

You know, I think that`s a bit of rubbish, frankly. For a start, it is well understood at Red Bull that Multi 12 or Multi 21 is an instruction that wouldnt ever be given to one car and not the other. So Webber knew that Vettel had been instructed not to pass. Nobody told Hamilton that in Turkey 2010. Team orders were banned, so if the team were going to tell Hamilton that his position was protected by a team order they would have done it in code. Hamilton asked if running to his delta would result in him losing position and his engineer said no. The engineer is almost bound to say no in that situation for reasons I have explained. The situations are almost entirely incomparable. I don`t believe the purpose of Hamilton`s column is to empathise. It is to insidiously imply, without saying it, that Button stabbed him in the back. Then when it is pointed out that Button did no such thing, Hamilton (and people like you) hide behind his weasel words. "Button passed me just as Vettel passed Webber." The implication is clear enough.

[study]

You do know the order "hold position" was accepted by FIA and disregarded as team orders even when team orders was band.

[P123]

The situations are almost entirely incomparable. I don`t believe the purpose of Hamilton`s column is to empathise. It is to insidiously imply, without saying it, that Button stabbed him in the back. Then when it is pointed out that Button did no such thing, Hamilton (and people like you) hide behind his weasel words. "Button passed me just as Vettel passed Webber." The implication is clear enough.

I think that's your emotional interpretation of it coupled with a lot of supposition as to what 'should have been said'. The situations are comparable as already explained. The behaviour of Button and Vettel is not, which people really need to put to one side as it seems to colour their interpretation of the article.

[halifaxf1fan]

The gist of it was:
'Slow down Lewis'
'If I slow down is Jenson going to pass me?' - the sub-text being 'because if he is you can F right off mate...'
'No Lewis'

There was no request.
You made that up.

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

I see it as Lewis confirming that Button would be told not to overtake. Lewis wouldn't have had the option tell them to 'F right off' and maintain his pace to the end as he had used up his fuel.

[trogggy]

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis, no

I see it as Lewis confirming that Button would be told not to overtake. Lewis wouldn't have had the option tell them to 'F right off' and maintain his pace to the end as he had used up his fuel.

You said...
'...Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car.'

This didn't happen, as you own quotes show.

[Rurouni]

He could he easily have lost a second or more fighting Button.

No, that from the same lap. Hamilton was basically slowing down so much that Button was right behind him. If it was because of the battle then Button time would be similar.
And remember that this was Button 1st year at McLaren so if there was such a misunderstanding about a coded message, then might as well be in his 1st year at the team.
Basically the bigger picture is a bit different (if not totally different, depending on your view or the situation) between Webber and Hamilton. With Webber it was obvious that there was a team order that should keep Vettel behind him. With Hamilton, that order wasn't clear. Everyone can spin the Turkey story anyway they like it to support their driver. Whereas the Malaysian story (at least for me) as clear as it can be... even then some people still spin in to suit their needs.

I don't doubt that from Hamilton view, what happened to Webber was similar to him, in a sense that you think that the other driver wouldn't try to overtake but did overtake/try to overtake. What Hamilton said in that article didn't invalidate the official story given out by the team or didn't automatically validate the story that Button try to overtake under strict team order. What it somewhat validates is that at that time (Turkey 2010) Hamilton probably as annoyed as Webber at Malaysia 2013 (Webber probably more, since Vettel actually passed him and win).

Maybe this thread should be closed, because the topic isn't worthy of discussion.

[speng]

The 'cheating' if any in this episode would have been Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car. A clear benefit for Hamilton from a team order designed to give him an uncontested win.

so much nonsense can be said and is said

[halifaxf1fan]

You said...
'...Hamilton asking for Button to stay behind if he slowed his car.'

This didn't happen, as you own quotes show.

In your words, that is the gist of it!

Button was closing in and Hamilton realizing that he was running out of fuel and had to slow wanted the team to ensure Button was not to pass him.

Anyway I guess we just see things differently.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 12 April 2013 - 18:26.

[trogggy]

In your words, that is the gist of it!

Button was closing in and Hamilton realizing that he was running out of fuel and had to slow wanted the team to ensure Button was not to pass him.

Anyway I guess we just see things differently.

We do. Me from the perspective of a Button fan and you from...

[jjcale]

That "link" has less grip than a 50 lap run on Pirelli Super Softs. Nothing like the Dave Ryan situation at all and it's poor form imo to even try to say it is.

If you want to intimate that JB's engineer disregarded an instruction from above to pass on the appropriate message to JB during the race and was then "removed", go for it. You may even find some credence & support for it is out there.

But its a fact that the guy didnt come back.... no?

[ZooL]

I don't believe anyone believes everything was fine at Macca. The unknown is who was more toxic, Macca or Hamilton?

Button was toxic actually. Team harmony was fine before he came along.

Edited by ZooL, 12 April 2013 - 18:31.

[halifaxf1fan]

We do. Me from the perspective of a Button fan and you from...

..... seeing them race to the finish line!

These early season positional team orders are mickey mouse. Save them for the end of the season if one of your drivers is still in it.

[jjcale]

But Button didn't exceed the delta, that's the point. If the delta was given as a laptime and Button stuck to it, Button obeyed his instructions - end of. Even if Hamilton was only slow because Button made sure he was slow, that's not cheating, it's Button using his brain. If McLaren wanted Button to hold station they should have had a code for that and they should have used it. If they didn't have a code and they just gave him a delta and he stuck to it, you cannot criticise him for that and neither could McLaren.

Please ... come off with the "driving to a delta nonsense".

In real life, in F1, if a team has a 1-2 and they tell either of the drivers not to go all out that has one meaning and one meaning only - "hold station".

JB had almost a decade's experience in F1 at that point and maybe 2 decades worth of racing experience overall... he knew what the team was telling him to do... and he know what he was doing by passing LH.

Even freaking Jarno Trulli wanted to give the place back in Aus 09....

Y'all stop being so disingenuous and deliberatly obtuse ... its embarrassing.

[Sennasational]

Button was toxic actually. Team harmony was fine before he came along.

Personally I think Whitmarsh is toxic, the fact that McLaren have their weakest driver pairing in years and that Button is their team leader, and thinks he is deserved and good enough to be in that position is the fault of Whitmarsh.

Perez is starting to look like a stupid choice too.

Oh and this is off topic. But why is Perez called Checo now? It's stupid.

[redreni]

Button was toxic actually. Team harmony was fine before he came along.

Yeah and you know why? Heikki was slow and Button wasn`t. Button outscored Hamilton at McLaren. Thats no good for team harmony where Hamilton is concerned.

[trogggy]

Oh and this is off topic. But why is Perez called Checo now? It's stupid.

Because he's a Mexican called Sergio.
All Mexican Sergios are Checos.

[ForeverF1]

It would seem that discussion has veered to yet another Hamilton vs Button thread, therefore, it is closed.