76 replies to this topic

[Fastcake]

I think that's a wrong question, because faster lap is not an issue. In absence of track testing, risk exists that cars might not be ready to go out in Q1, and if they do, they are handicapped by whatever malfunction. In one hour format people had time to work on the car, and still remain competitive on Sunday. Who cares about some silly, arbitrary rules prior the race? I think we came to see all drivers in their best positions to take it on the track, instead starting in pits, or on wrong rubber, or somewhere down on the grid where junior takes a swipe at you just because he can get his name in headlines. Then there is the weather, and how many times already people who found the dry track moved on, as opposed to others who got stuck in wet trail, and for all practical purposes are thus also handicapped for the race. To me it doesn't make any sense. I want to see the race, and all guys in points in their best on Sunday line up, ready to kick dust at 14:00.

One hour quali format might have been often wait-and-see time, but teams watched, waited, and then furor - will Schumacher get P1 in last dying seconds? I have not experienced such tension for many, many years, and I miss that. What we have instead is this guy Alonso telling us, that quali is not important anymore. Well, thank you very much then.

You have an hour of FP3 on Saturday to work on the car, then another hour or so until Q1 where there are no restrictions for working with the car. There is practically the same amount of time available as there was before - if the car is not ready the team have no one to blame but themselves. Testing is not an issue here as the format was in place before the ban; besides cars are more reliable than ever now. None of your gripes are really with the format, you should be talking about parc ferme or the tyre rules.

There is also no difference between the tension at the end of the one hour session and that at the end of Q3. Both give the opportunity to have close battle for the pole, as we have seen in Q3 many times before, but knockout qualifying removes the long periods of nothing happening and gives us a much better fight down the grid. The fact that some cars choose not to run currently is again down to tyre rules and not the format. Alonso is absolutely right to be telling us qualifying is not as important. It should never of been so important compared to the race as it was during the 2000s. It's meant to set the grid. Any excitement it brings is merely a bonus.

[Sakae]

You have an hour of FP3 on Saturday to work on the car, then another hour or so until Q1 where there are no restrictions for working with the car. There is practically the same amount of time available as there was before - if the car is not ready the team have no one to blame but themselves. Testing is not an issue here as the format was in place before the ban; besides cars are more reliable than ever now. None of your gripes are really with the format, you should be talking about parc ferme or the tyre rules.

There is also no difference between the tension at the end of the one hour session and that at the end of Q3. Both give the opportunity to have close battle for the pole, as we have seen in Q3 many times before, but knockout qualifying removes the long periods of nothing happening and gives us a much better fight down the grid. The fact that some cars choose not to run currently is again down to tyre rules and not the format. Alonso is absolutely right to be telling us qualifying is not as important. It should never of been so important compared to the race as it was during the 2000s. It's meant to set the grid. Any excitement it brings is merely a bonus.

Within scope of this thread I did, extensively.

[apoka]

Extra set of tires for Q3 (can not be used in the race) and start on whatever tires you want, regardless of what you qualified with.
Would solve it.

This. No drastic changes are needed. Apart from those two things I like the current qualy format. Way more action than some old formats and Q1, Q2, Q3 all have their own interesting battles (unless you don't care about the midfield).

[Clatter]

I think that's a wrong question, because faster lap is not an issue. In absence of track testing, risk exists that cars might not be ready to go out in Q1, and if they do, they are handicapped by whatever malfunction. In one hour format people had time to work on the car, and still remain competitive on Sunday. Who cares about some silly, arbitrary rules prior the race? I think we came to see all drivers in their best positions to take it on the track, instead starting in pits, or on wrong rubber, or somewhere down on the grid where junior takes a swipe at you just because he can get his name in headlines. Then there is the weather, and how many times already people who found the dry track moved on, as opposed to others who got stuck in wet trail, and for all practical purposes are thus also handicapped for the race. To me it doesn't make any sense. I want to see the race, and all guys in points in their best on Sunday line up, ready to kick dust at 14:00.

One hour quali format might have been often wait-and-see time, but teams watched, waited, and then furor - will Schumacher get P1 in last dying seconds? I have not experienced such tension for many, many years, and I miss that. What we have instead is this guy Alonso telling us, that quali is not important anymore. Well, thank you very much then.

That's because of Parc Ferme rules and has absolutely nothing to do with the qualifying format.

Alonso didn't say Q wasn't important, he said "not as important". That's a good thing as simply lining up the cars in fastest order with no chance of overtaking is the easiest way to kill racing.

[Fastcake]

Within scope of this thread I did, extensively.

So you don't actually have an issue with knockout qualifying then?

[GAZF1nut]

The actual format is fine, I just don't like that the top 10 have to start on the tyres they qualified on. IMO, they should all have qualifying tyres and push all out and then think of the best strategy overnight for the race.

[Seanspeed]

Extra set of tires for Q3 (can not be used in the race) and start on whatever tires you want, regardless of what you qualified with.
Would solve it.

Yea, I'm with this.

Quali is great otherwise.

[Rinehart]

The old qualy rules were the best, especially with a modern twist.

Qualy tyres, thimble of fuel. 1 hr to set a time. Perhaps knock out 5 cars every 15 mins, but not actually split the sessions up, just keep the clock ticking.

If they did this now it would work perfectly especially with parc ferme rules (banning the use of qualy set ups).

You'd end up with the starting order of the fastest to slowest cars based on low fuel with a tyre with characteristics that wouldn't be run in the race. This would almost certainly be different to the competitive order of cars over a race distance on race race tyres.

And I really think they should offer 3-2-1 points for the top 3 qualifiers, to try to encourage 100% effort for pole.

[ANF]

Don't force the top 10 to start on the tyres they qualified on. That's the reason to why Q3 is often so boring.

Yes.

[Sakae]

So you don't actually have an issue with knockout qualifying then?

Perhaps more accurate is to say, that I do not understand nor appreciate benefit of "knockout" system. How does that improves the race at 14:00 on Sunday?

Take Vettel, my favorite driver, and I am thinking that his car might have malfunction that makes him miss Q3 session in one scenario, thus on Sunday he is at the back, and some hot head who is learning F1 ropes will take him out. How that improves championship?

In contrast, in one hour system, despite initial issues extra time let his team to field him out even for one last run, and let him qualify as he make it so, and perhaps he might be on the front row. Good for the race related fight.

Point is - I do not like artificial sweeteners, I do not like anything which diminishes the actual race event, be it through tire mandates, knock-out system, gearbox penalties, parc ferme or any other nonsense of similar kind.

Edited by Sakae, 17 May 2013 - 14:13.

[Fastcake]

Perhaps more accurate is to say, that I do not understand nor appreciate benefit of "knockout" system. How does that improves the race at 14:00 on Sunday?

It doesn't improve Sunday, it improves Saturday. It gives the spectators on the track, and those watching at home, a far more interesting hour of qualifying and much more on-track action than we used to get.

Take Vettel, my favorite driver, and I am thinking that his car might have malfunction that makes him miss Q3 session in one scenario, thus on Sunday he is at the back, and some hot head who is learning F1 ropes will take him out. How that improves championship?

In contrast, in one hour system, despite initial issues extra time let his team to field him out even for one last run, and let him qualify as he make it so, and perhaps he might be on the front row. Good for the race related fight.

Point is - I do not like artificial sweeteners, I do not like anything which diminishes the actual race event, be it through tire mandates, knock-out system, gearbox penalties, parc ferme or any other nonsense of similar kind.

A mechanical issue could stop him setting a time in a one-hour session, and if it hit towards the end he may fail to set a time and be at the back, since no one went out at the beginning of the session. Compare to missing Q3, he'll still be tenth at the least and possibly further forward if other cars don't go out and he keeps the number one. Knockout qualifying has no more negative effects on the race than the one-hour session did.

Edited by Fastcake, 17 May 2013 - 17:30.

[Sakae]

It doesn't improve Sunday, it improves Saturday. It gives the spectators on the track, and those watching at home, a far more interesting hour of qualifying and much more on-track action than we used to get.



A mechanical issue could stop him setting a time in a one-hour session, and if it hit towards the end he may fail to set a time and be at the back, since no one went out at the beginning of the session. Compare to missing Q3, he'll still be tenth at the least and possibly further forward if other cars don't go out and he keeps the number one. Knockout qualifying has no more negative effects on the race than the one-hour session did.

But I came to watch Sunday race, not preparation for the race. Qualification for past a few years lost attractiveness of yesteryears, and now when a driver will tell you that Quali is not important anymore, so what's the point to go through the charade? They might just as well pull numbers out of the hat for their parking spot on the grid.

[Fastcake]

But I came to watch Sunday race, not preparation for the race. Qualification for past a few years lost attractiveness of yesteryears, and now when a driver will tell you that Quali is not important anymore, so what's the point to go through the charade? They might just as well pull numbers out of the hat for their parking spot on the grid.

If you're not interested, don't watch it anymore. I'm not sure why you think qualifying needs to be as important, grid position should never of mattered as much as it did before. It's still got nothing to do with the format.

[baddog]

and now when a driver will tell you that Quali is not important anymore, so what's the point to go through the charade?

The reason it is not important is the tyres not the format.

[Clatter]

But I came to watch Sunday race, not preparation for the race. Qualification for past a few years lost attractiveness of yesteryears, and now when a driver will tell you that Quali is not important anymore, so what's the point to go through the charade? They might just as well pull numbers out of the hat for their parking spot on the grid.

Then ignore Saturday and just watch the race.

Sounds to me like your just crying because Vettel isn't on pole everytime.

Why do you keep repeating the same rubbish? No driver has said that.

[Clatter]

The reason it is not important is the tyres not the format.

DRS.

[baddog]

DRS.

Yep that bullshit too. But if there was no outright advantage to not running competitively in Q3 it would be better than now.

I don't have a problem with KERS but DRS is horrible, destructive to racing (now a real overtaking move is a rare gem sadly) and, frankly, sad.

[Sakae]

Then ignore Saturday and just watch the race.

Sounds to me like your just crying because Vettel isn't on pole everytime.

Why do you keep repeating the same rubbish? No driver has said that.

OK semantics - less important, no important, it doesn't matter. In essence, it is not the same, and if it is less important, why have it in the first place?


No driver..?

Alonso said...

"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year,"

What has Vettel to do how I think of parc ferme, tire restrictions and qualifying format? I should add that little search would show that I am consistent on these issues for several years, so please do not come up on me with that kind of response.

Edited by Sakae, 18 May 2013 - 04:58.

[Kingshark]

I thoroughly enjoy the knock-out system for Q1 and Q2, but for Q3 I would like to see a 10 driver one-lap shoot out for pole, similar to the system we had back in 2004-05.

Why? Because:

1. It will allow us to view the laps of all the drivers.
2. Then no one will sit-out for Q3 or take the easy way out.

Also, get rid of the ridiculous tyre rule that the top 10 must start on the tyres they qualified on.

[ViMaMo]

The current format is almost there. Having seen so many formats, i feel this is the best of the lot. Ofcourse, the saving the tyres part in Q3 sucks. Hopefully FIA addresses it.

The perfect qualifying would be with qualifying engines, qualifying tyres, unlimited laps in 1 hour. Thats never going to happen in future.

[oldracer1957]

Hi all,

How would this work?
How about just one set of durable tyres for Qualifying that need to last Q1,2 & 3? Then each car has 10 sets of dry tyres for race day? Might mix it up a bit?
Maybe a set of Bridgestones for Saturday. Pirelli for Sunday?

Just a thought.

Me.

Ridiculous idea, but if at all, then it would have to be Pirelli on Saturday and Bridgestone on Sunday, in`it?

[Fastcake]

OK semantics - less important, no important, it doesn't matter. In essence, it is not the same, and if it is less important, why have it in the first place?

Because you have to set the grid, and the way it's done in Motorsport (or at least for the first race) is to have a qualifying session that arranges the cars from fastest to slowest.

Did you have any objection to knockout qualifying before the Pirelli tyres came in? In 2010 there was exactly what you were looking for. A battle for pole through to the last seconds, drivers considering qualifying to be more important thanks to the artificial difficulties of passing on track, no drivers electing to skip qualifying to preserve tyres.

I thoroughly enjoy the knock-out system for Q1 and Q2, but for Q3 I would like to see a 10 driver one-lap shoot out for pole, similar to the system we had back in 2004-05.

Why? Because:

1. It will allow us to view the laps of all the drivers.
2. Then no one will sit-out for Q3 or take the easy way out.

Also, get rid of the ridiculous tyre rule that the top 10 must start on the tyres they qualified on.

One-lap qualifying is inherently unfair due to the fact the conditions are not the same for each driver.

[Clatter]

OK semantics - less important, no important, it doesn't matter. In essence, it is not the same, and if it is less important, why have it in the first place?


No driver..?

Alonso said...


What has Vettel to do how I think of parc ferme, tire restrictions and qualifying format? I should add that little search would show that I am consistent on these issues for several years, so please do not come up on me with that kind of response.

Because it's still the method upon which the cars are lined up for the actual race. And despite what Alonso said I've yet to see him sit out qualifying. If it was "not important" as you keep trying to make it sound then he wouldn't bother and simply start from the back. It's a real shame you can't understand his meaning.

[Clatter]

One-lap qualifying is inherently unfair due to the fact the conditions are not the same for each driver.

And damned boring to watch, especially if your trackside.

[Fastcake]

And damned boring to watch, especially if your trackside.

Very true, not that the spectators are the biggest concern to the powers that be anymore.

[pingu666]

they copied the start on tyre rule from endurance races, but in that area theres no mandated 2 tyre rule, and they could swap 1 tyre. plus changing tyres takes extra time. so it works there, or is ok atleast.

[Sakae]

Did you have any objection to knockout qualifying before the Pirelli tyres came in?

Obviously you do not read my posts, otherwise you would know that the answer is yes, I have. Never like it, as this is prerogative of a fan, and be careful about claiming fairness about anything in F1 for that is pretty slippery slope.