80 replies to this topic

[MikeV1987]

When your car is capable of going through corners with the DRS open it's hard to claim the best driver title.

Looks like Alonso can't claim best driver either, his F2012 has the DRS open at the same high speed corners as Vettel's RB8 does. Not bad for a car that was apparently below par.

Edited by MikeV1987, 24 July 2013 - 22:45.

[ebc]

Both of those claims are complete and utter horse ****, in my most honest opinion.

Vettel is the best by some margin this season, overall it is close with Fernando but Vettel is ever improving so I would go with him. Horner has no real competition as the best team principle as well, you can't argue with his success.

[SpaMaster]

Lotus was pretty decent at developing the car tbh. They were pretty in the same delta and the end of the season as in the beginning or slighlty better. Just look when they won their race in 2012.

Dunno where that "Lotus cant develop" thing came from. Especially that it has no background.

Yes, even I don't understand where this myth that Lotus can't develop the car came from. Last year, they maintained the delta or even closed it up more. Didn't get the impression that they fell off in 2010 either. Sure they fell back a bit just before they introduced the exhaust system. But within a few races they were back to their usual pace.

I am quite surprised by the number of people who have written off other teams just halfway into the season. You have to wait at least another 4-5 races before giving up like that. Look how the comparative pace of Red Bull was in the last race. It is one thing if they dominate. But if they are just barely managing it and are leading by consistency, things could change, particularly if Ferrari and Lotus roll the dice on the future development path. Both those teams have drivers who will exploit thoroughly even if they have a fighting chance from their car. Most of the remaining races would be hot and that alone would keep Lotus within touching distance. Any hiccup from Red Bull, one of these teams may be all over them. Red Bull has the advantage, but we are a long way away from writing off this season.

Edited by SpaMaster, 24 July 2013 - 14:32.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

... if Ferrari and Lotus roll the dice on the future development path. Both those teams have drivers who will exploit thoroughly even if they have a fighting chance from their car. Most of the remaining races would be hot and that alone would keep Lotus within touching distance.

Lotus won't roll the dice for the rest of 2013. They're too conservative and too scared to drop in the WCC where the FOM prize money is too important for them. They would rather have a 'sure'/"fighting" 2-3, for instance, than risk going for a win but ending up 2-4 (the Nurburgring scenario).

Alonso, on the other hand, won't mind Ferrari rolling the dice...but they do it on the strategy front, not on the development side. I mean, when was the last time Ferrari took a real risk in development? The risk they take is on tyre strategy (like Q3 in Germany).

What these two need is for the Mercedes pair to prevent Vettel from taking big points and for Vettel to suffer Silverstone-like mechanical DNFs.

[V3TT3L]

This YDT shows well the anima of F1 nowadays.

Vettel, the winner of thee last WDC was there testing while his contenders Alonso and Kimi were not

How can you possibly win the best team working less than the competition

[Kelateboy]

I think Redbull/Vettel will win but I think it will still be reasonably close.

I don't think it is going to be close as 2010 or 2012, but it won't be a runaway victory like 2011 either. He will win comfortably with maybe 1 or 2 GPs to go.

[SpaMaster]

This YDT shows well the anima of F1 nowadays.

Vettel, the winner of thee last WDC was there testing while his contenders Alonso and Kimi were not

How can you possibly win the best team working less than the competition

Yeah, Vettel being more committed than others is the reason he has won the last three WDC, nothing to do with the car.

Just think about what could be the other reasons why Vettel was testing his Red Bull when other race drivers could not test theirs. There may be some other reasons! Like how Lotus withdrew Raikkonen after certain clarifications on what race drivers and young drivers can do to the car. May be, just may be, Red Bull has a car that is already a bit ahead on development and their next step is to get the driver used to the tyres. Other teams may not have such luxury. So this Vettel testing may be the end result of some cushion rather than the first stepping stone for Red Bull's championship wins..

[Sakae]

I don't think it is going to be close as 2010 or 2012, but it won't be a runaway victory like 2011 either. He will win comfortably with maybe 1 or 2 GPs to go.

I think so too. Under normal conditions, and barring some bizarre downtime, has this season wrapped already. Brundle is being quoted that Hamilton is still in running, but to be honest, I think something is clouding his judgment. I can't see it. Alonso said, that once the spread between him and Vettel gets to 55 - 60 points, he will admit it's over. Well, Hamilton is 58 now, we are coming to some races which traditionally are not Vettel's weakest ones, if he ever had one, thus I am not sure what Brundle has on his mind.

[SpaMaster]

Loving the confidence of the many people who say that Vettel has this wrapped up already. Would love to see their reaction if this championship gets close as asked by the OP.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Brundle is being quoted that Hamilton is still in running

Alonso said, that once the spread between him and Vettel gets to 55 - 60 points, he will admit it's over. Well, Hamilton is 58 now, we are coming to some races which traditionally are not Vettel's weakest ones, if he ever had one, thus I am not sure what Brundle has on his mind.

Brundle is correct in that Hamilton still is mathematically in the running. In addition, Hamilton has a W04 which is likely to qualify ahead of Vettel. He also has another W04 in Rosberg's that can also qualify ahead of Vettel. Whether that translates into more points for him - and Rosberg also being able to take points off Vettel - is another story.

Alonso, on the other hand, can't qualify the car ahead of Vettel under normal circumstances and he'll have to contend with those W04s, the E21s from Lotus and Webber's RB9 too. So, this year, Alonso - if he falls more than 2 wins behind - he will be resigned to some realism because it's not as if the RB9 is like the Brawn in 2009. Plus Vettel now knows how to deal with the pressures of Championships (unlike like, say, Montoya in 2003, Hamilton in 2007, Button in 2009).

Having said that, Brundle also said that missing the YTD test will hurt Mercedes...so, he's hedging his bets.

Lastly, look at Brundle's main audience. It's not as if he's talking to Germans, Spaniards or Finns, is he? So what else is he going to say to the English about their country's WDC chances? Which, mathematically, is still to play for.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 24 July 2013 - 20:09.

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Having said that, Brundle also said that missing the YTD test will hurt Mercedes...so, he's hedging his bets.

The actual quote was:

"Missing the Silverstone test will hurt them quite a lot because the tyres are fundamentally changing now for the second half of the season."

"They will get the data but they won't know how it applies to their car. Even a tiny change in the side-wall of the tyre, or the squash as it's going down the straights when the downforce starts getting applied, affects the aerodynamics of your car. So I think it's going to hurt them quite a lot."

[Sakae]

Loving the confidence of the many people who say that Vettel has this wrapped up already. Would love to see their reaction if this championship gets close as asked by the OP.

Kelateboy is right; it is going to be close, but I doubt we will see 2012 year-end again.

[Eff One 2002]

i'll bet many people have already asked this in 2004 about Ferrari, 1991 about mclaren and 1997 about williams F1.

With McLaren it would have been more relevant to mention a year such as 1984, 1988, 1989, 1990 or 1998. McLaren were a dominant force in those years and not so much in 1991. Williams caught them by the end of the year. In addition Williams were not a dominant team in 1997 but were in years like 1992, 1993 and 1996.

As to the original question: No, I don't think so. Merc and Ferrari seem to be the only teams with a slim chance.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 24 July 2013 - 21:32.

[Zava]

With McLaren it would have been more relevant to mention a year such as 1984, 1988, 1989, 1990 or 1998. McLaren were a dominant force in those years and not so much in 1991. Williams caught them by the end of the year. In addition Williams were not a dominant team in 1997 but were in years like 1992, 1993 and 1996.

As to the original question: No, I don't think so. Merc and Ferrari seem to be the only teams with a slim chance.

I think he chose these years because these were the ends of those teams' eras.

[jjcale]

Its still looking a bit bleak on the tyre front but I am still backing Merc for both titles.... there is still time and they have the outright fastest car but for the tyres.

[mattferg]

When your car is capable of going through corners with the DRS open it's hard to claim the best driver title.

Is this urban myth nonsense still going round the forum? Go watch last year's qualifying in Suzuka. Everyone has their DRS open in 130R.

[alframsey]

Now see, thats a much better way of stating your opinion about a driver without having to refer to anyone else's perfectly justifiable opinion as 'horse ****'.

Very true! This heat is turning me into a right mardy arse.

[drag]

Brundle is correct in that Hamilton still is mathematically in the running. In addition, Hamilton has a W04 which is likely to qualify ahead of Vettel. He also has another W04 in Rosberg's that can also qualify ahead of Vettel. Whether that translates into more points for him - and Rosberg also being able to take points off Vettel - is another story.

Alonso, on the other hand, can't qualify the car ahead of Vettel under normal circumstances and he'll have to contend with those W04s, the E21s from Lotus and Webber's RB9 too. So, this year, Alonso - if he falls more than 2 wins behind - he will be resigned to some realism because it's not as if the RB9 is like the Brawn in 2009. Plus Vettel now knows how to deal with the pressures of Championships (unlike like, say, Montoya in 2003, Hamilton in 2007, Button in 2009).

Having said that, Brundle also said that missing the YTD test will hurt Mercedes...so, he's hedging his bets.

Lastly, look at Brundle's main audience. It's not as if he's talking to Germans, Spaniards or Finns, is he? So what else is he going to say to the English about their country's WDC chances? Which, mathematically, is still to play for.

Forget about Brundle,last year after mid season (dont remember exactly) said clearly he see`s only Hamilton as a man who can mount challenge on Alonso for the WDC and we all know how it ended.

So Ill stick to my honest opinion and say I hope that at least will be close at the end and that they will come with pretty equal machinery from now on, but now looks like its Vettel WDC to loose ,Alonso is the only one who can beat him.

[Mercedestorque1]

No. Vettel is too far ahead and his team have the best race strategies. only dnfs can stop him now.

[joshb]

Unless Ferrari and otus can regularly quaify on the front 2 rows or uness Mercedes can match the Red Bull with its tyre degredation, then I can't see Vette/Red Bull being beaten unless misfortune/DNFs come into play.

as of now, Mercedes can fight them in qualy, Lotus and Ferrari can fight them over a stint, but Red Bull is consistently near the top in all departments and I think this and Vettel's own consistency will mean he ends up with the drivers title.

Yes Vettel and Red bull can still be stopped but it will take a fair effort to do that

[Dunc]

This season reminds me of 1991. McLaren had been the best team in 88, 89 and 90. In 1991 though Williams pushed them pretty hard, and by 1992 they overtook Macca.

I reckon Merc will push RB for a little while to come but will really hit their stride next season.

[DriveFastLiveSlow]

I wouldn't count Kimi out. A couple of good races might be coming up for him. Another thing going for Kimi is reliability, both him and the car. Alonso has a change as well, but I would count Hamilton out of the race. If mercedes picks up the space Nico will be taking points from him, unless there are team orders. Even with team orders Hamilton would need to beat Nico in qualifying.

[Alfisti]

Big issue is qualifying, Alonso sometimes has two mercs, Webber and a random interloper (force india or a lotus) between himself and vettel. By the time he finds a way past them all Vettel has scampered off.

Put it this way, if Vettel starts P1 and Alonso p2 i think Alonso will win the race as race pace has been very, very strong in that car. Now it's likely strong cos they don't cook the tyres but this hurts the one lap pace.

[MP422]

This season reminds me of 1991. McLaren had been the best team in 88, 89 and 90. In 1991 though Williams pushed them pretty hard, and by 1992 they overtook Macca.

I reckon Merc will push RB for a little while to come but will really hit their stride next season.

I'm hoping for that as well, but both teams with pace like Macca and Ferrari in 07. What a battle we could see.... LH and NR vs SV and KR 4 way for the WDC would be epic.

[Alfisti]

People that have Lotus challenging this year or next year for the WDC or dead set kidding. Not a hope in hell.

[Shiroo]

People that have Lotus challenging this year or next year for the WDC or dead set kidding. Not a hope in hell.

I can understand this year... but how can you know next season performance?
And well... E21 is more consistent than Ferrari in my opinion at least. If not some **** ups from the team it would be ahead of Ferrari. Also it is worth mentioning that Alonso is always "KEEP THE FAITH" while Ferrari is rather not developing as good to keep him in the title fight.
By the way, calling Lotus a random interloper?

[SpaMaster]

Big issue is qualifying, Alonso sometimes has two mercs, Webber and a random interloper (force india or a lotus) between himself and vettel. By the time he finds a way past them all Vettel has scampered off.

Put it this way, if Vettel starts P1 and Alonso p2 i think Alonso will win the race as race pace has been very, very strong in that car. Now it's likely strong cos they don't cook the tyres but this hurts the one lap pace.

Lotus - A random interloper? Non-sense. Lotus/Kimi is no worse placed than the big focus, Alonso..

[Der Pate]

This season reminds me of 1991. McLaren had been the best team in 88, 89 and 90. In 1991 though Williams pushed them pretty hard, and by 1992 they overtook Macca.

I reckon Merc will push RB for a little while to come but will really hit their stride next season.

I would agree, if there wouldn´t be a complete change of F1 next year. It´s not only the turbo, but the cars will look completely different...

[Vesuvius]

I think Lotus and Kimi and Ferrari and Alonso are the only ones who can challenge Vettel and from those two I think Lotus/Kimi combo looks now stronger bet than Alonso/Ferrari but next 2-3 races will tell if anyone can challenge Vettel/RBR

[cooper]

Presently there isn't a team that is performing on par with RBR, they are a well oiled machine. Merc if they had better race pace could have potentially taken it to them this season but really the two main competitors are Kimi and Alonso. That said they have really under performed recently and no one seems to have an answer to Vettel and the RB machine getting very solid results.

If it continues on the same trend it's going to be an easy season for RBR

[Lucass]

I don't think it is going to be close as 2010 or 2012, but it won't be a runaway victory like 2011 either. He will win comfortably with maybe 1 or 2 GPs to go.

That's what I expect too
Unless Seb has multiple DNFs I don't think anyone will come close to him anymore
Constructor's seems closer Mark needs to step up his game or Merc and Ferrari could be a theath