939 replies to this topic

[Seanspeed]

No doubt about that but Marquez had his debut in a dream machine whereas Vertappen will drive in a p.o.s. car... Maybe for two years and it could very well be that until then when he is lifted up to RB the RB car could be crap as well and voila, your career is destroyed...

I don't think being a Red Bull Jr. driver means you have a life-long commitment to only drive for Red Bull or Red Bull-owned teams.

[Sash1]

No doubt about that but Marquez had his debut in a dream machine whereas Vertappen will drive in a p.o.s. car... Maybe for two years and it could very well be that until then when he is lifted up to RB the RB car could be crap as well and voila, your career is destroyed...

 

You could sign for Mercedes, but the management at Mercedes could just as well scrap the whole team. Could be, would be, what if... Alonso expected Ferrari to do better, but it was a crap car, Button had high expectations at McLaren but..., Grosjean never expected Lotus to be as crap as they are now, Senna never expected Williams to be crap when he signed for them. Maybe only Schumacher knew Ferrari was shite when he went there.

[TheRacingElf]

I don't think being a Red Bull Jr. driver means you have a life-long commitment to only drive for Red Bull or Red Bull-owned teams.

No but the only STR driver to move to a non Red Bull team was Liuzzi, so I can understand people are affraid he is "stuck" with Red Bull

[Seanspeed]

No but the only STR driver to move to a non Red Bull team was Liuzzi, so I can understand people are affraid he is "stuck" with Red Bull

I don't think this is because Red Bull puts a stranglehold on their drivers, but because the Red Bull 'rejects' never proved to be attractive enough for other teams to pick them after Red Bull dropped them.

Its possible that since drivers get by with Red Bull without any other sponsorship, they may be left a bit naked in terms of financial backing to appeal to other teams once let go from Red Bull, but anybody sufficiently talented and impressive will almost surely find a place on the grid to continue their career.

[JeePee]

Van Eldik (Dutch F1-photographer who has close contact with the Verstappens) about the Torro Rosso rumors: "For now he doesn't drive there, but it is likely to happen."

 

And Jos himself: "Nothing is certain. The rumor wasn't spread by us. We're still negotiating about next year. The wait is on."

[taran]

Yes I'm sugesting he is much more a racingdriver then Button, Keke and Damon combined!

 

Jos was stubern, Jos had a tempre, Jos had a manager that is a jerk, Jos was to eager. But when you look at his driver errors, that were only a few. Most of the time it was mechanical faillure.

 

Oh boy. I can see why you might consider Button and Hill in a different class than Jos, who was known as a very instinctive driver and a bit of a charger. But Keke Rosberg? Did you even follow F1 in the 1980s? Or did you discover F1 in 1994?

[HistoryFan]

does anybody know for which team verstappen tested wsbr? For DAMS I guess

[Viryfan]

does anybody know for which team verstappen tested wsbr? For DAMS I guess

 

it was not a car owned by a team.

 

it was owned by the track.

[zanquis]

ElJefe, how many of those racea of JV really ended in the gravel because of real driver errors?? I am sure the answer is a lot less then you think. Ieven dare to one up you.. If you eliminate all retirements because his car was so crappy that it would break down or fall apart the remaining retirements due to driver errors are no different then other drivers from his era.

and with regard to weakest champion in F1 hero Damon is sure to lead the pack. He was a weak racer with close to zero overtaking skills. He could only win the title in a car that was as dominant as the Mercedes is now and struggled to beat his rookie teammate who while being better then Hill was also a relatively weak champion, and in the current situation Max dad is by far the better driver of the 2 JV's.

[A3]

Can we keep this thread ontopic before it becomes completely stupid?

[lars75]

Oh boy. I can see why you might consider Button and Hill in a different class than Jos, who was known as a very instinctive driver and a bit of a charger. But Keke Rosberg? Did you even follow F1 in the 1980s? Or did you discover F1 in 1994?

 

Well I discovered F1 in 1989 with the clash between Senna and Prost and start following it very close from 1992.

 

I saw some old fotage of Keke and I wasn't that impressed. He didn't give me the same thrill as Piquet sr, Senna, Schumacher, Villeneuve sr and jr and quit a few others. He even gave me the same chill as Montoya, Verstappen, Fisichella, Irvine and so on. And for me liking F1 drivers doesn't come with teams, victories or titles but with if they are able te make me eager to sit at the point of my chair when they approach a competitor and send a shiver down my spine! Keke didn't do that to me.

 

So in my opinion Verstappen was better then Keke. I dislike Alonso for that reason (at the moment it is less) that he start mathematics when he is in the championship lead. I never saw Senna do that ever, and the Schumacher at his Benetton years neither. But when Max wants a chance of becoming champion, he has to learn doing that. And thats bothers me a bit, because I want to see him take that gap and fight.

[noikeee]

Can we keep this thread ontopic before it becomes completely stupid?

 

Too late:

 

So in my opinion Verstappen was better then Keke.

[EightGear]

And for me liking F1 drivers doesn't come with teams, victories or titles but with if they are able te make me eager to sit at the point of my chair when they approach a competitor and send a shiver down my spine! Keke didn't do that to me.

 

So in my opinion I liked Verstappen was better then Keke.

 

Fixed it.

[Seanspeed]

Well I discovered F1 in 1989 with the clash between Senna and Prost and start following it very close from 1992.
 
I saw some old fotage of Keke and I wasn't that impressed. He didn't give me the same thrill as Piquet sr, Senna, Schumacher, Villeneuve sr and jr and quit a few others. He even gave me the same chill as Montoya, Verstappen, Fisichella, Irvine and so on. And for me liking F1 drivers doesn't come with teams, victories or titles but with if they are able te make me eager to sit at the point of my chair when they approach a competitor and send a shiver down my spine! Keke didn't do that to me.
 
So in my opinion Verstappen was better then Keke. I dislike Alonso for that reason (at the moment it is less) that he start mathematics when he is in the championship lead. I never saw Senna do that ever, and the Schumacher at his Benetton years neither. But when Max wants a chance of becoming champion, he has to learn doing that. And thats bothers me a bit, because I want to see him take that gap and fight.

You 'saw some old footage'? Meaning you haven't actually watched full races or anything?

Cuz just watching some snippets of footage is a very poor way to judge a driver.

Keke was definitely a full-blooded *racer*. Aggressive, very fast, good overtaker. When he went head to head with Prost, it was actually Prost's more conservative nature, rather than outright speed, that gave Prost his advantage over Keke. Prost was better at fuel saving and saving his tires.

[lars75]

Fixed it.

 

I think that was a better way to express myself, thanks!

[lars75]

You 'saw some old footage'? Meaning you haven't actually watched full races or anything?

Cuz just watching some snippets of footage is a very poor way to judge a driver.

Keke was definitely a full-blooded *racer*. Aggressive, very fast, good overtaker. When he went head to head with Prost, it was actually Prost's more conservative nature, rather than outright speed, that gave Prost his advantage over Keke. Prost was better at fuel saving and saving his tires.

 

Yes, I saw old footage!

 

When Rosberg was racing F1 I was playing warfair with my friends the old fashion way! Not on my PS but in the neighborhood. So no I did not see him race constantly.

[Brandz07]

does anybody know for which team verstappen tested wsbr? For DAMS I guess

You can drive it yourself... it's a track experience car for the Red Bull Ring, pre-2012 spec.

[MetallurgicalHedonist]

I don't think being a Red Bull Jr. driver means you have a life-long commitment to only drive for Red Bull or Red Bull-owned teams.

Yes, I know. But how many RB-TR-drivers who happened to be in TR cars and subsequently in bad RB cars or only TR cars went to any other teams (and I mean as normal racing drivers and not as third drivers like ALG at Lotus or was it Buemi?).

Not that they were truly exceptional drivers (Buemi or Alguersuari) but other mediocre drivers could at least go from one team to another one. The TR cars will forever be sh.t (only Marussia and Caterham and probably Haas will be worse) and I cannot see RB being only more than half as good as they were from 2009-2013, having in mind that Newey's effect on the cars will probably be completely vanished come 2017 or 2018... Even if Verstappen can go to another team afterwards, it will be a kind of a contractual trap for the first three or four years as neither TR will ever evolve and the danger of sitting in a bad RB like the 2005-2008 ones is not that small... And in all those coming three or four years other highly revered drivers could enter the stage and nobody thinks about Verstappen anymore...

Edited by MetallurgicalHedonist, 14 August 2014 - 20:25.

[HistoryFan]

You can drive it yourself... it's a track experience car for the Red Bull Ring, pre-2012 spec.

 

Thank you!
 

[Juan Kerr]

Yes, I know. But how many RB-TR-drivers who happened to be in TR cars and subsequently in bad RB cars or only TR cars went to any other teams (and I mean as normal racing drivers and not as third drivers like ALG at Lotus or was it Buemi?).

Not that they were truly exceptional drivers (Buemi or Alguersuari) but other mediocre drivers could at least go from one team to another one. The TR cars will forever be sh.t (only Marussia and Caterham and probably Haas will be worse) and I cannot see RB being only more than half as good as they were from 2009-2013, having in mind that Newey's effect on the cars will probably be completely vanished come 2017 or 2018... Even if Verstappen can go to another team afterwards, it will be a kind of a contractual trap for the first three or four years as neither TR will ever evolve and the danger of sitting in a bad RB like the 2005-2008 ones is not that small... And in all those coming three or four years other highly revered drivers could enter the stage and nobody thinks about Verstappen anymore...

We've never seen a truly great driver in a Toro Rosso though so let's wait and see because one day someone will come along and be so far ahead of the perception of the car's pace we will all have to take note. Let's see how Max gets on, he's got great potential so let's leave it at that and see how he does, if he doesn't fulfill his potential so what? What is everyone's problem? If he don't he don't what's the loss??

[lars75]

We've never seen a truly great driver in a Toro Rosso though so let's wait and see because one day someone will come along and be so far ahead of the perception of the car's pace we will all have to take note. Let's see how Max gets on, he's got great potential so let's leave it at that and see how he does, if he doesn't fulfill his potential so what? What is everyone's problem? If he don't he don't what's the loss??

 

Vettel 2008 Monza!

 

Ok it was almost a copy of the RB, but never the less he won a GP in tricky conditions with a TR didn't he?

 

And I don't have a problem with Max not forfilling my expectations. It's all up to him and if he grabs hold of his chances, if yes it's great, if not is a great loss. But atleast he tried doing and that is always way much better than doing nothing. Life is a gamble, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose! Max always did better than I expacted he would, in that bombshell I'll say lets give it a shot!

[PayasYouRace]

We've never seen a truly great driver in a Toro Rosso

 

That's quite a slight against a four-time world champion...

 

...and the guy who's beating him this year.

[JeePee]

First sign? 

 

"Torro Rosso F1 boss Tost says Vergne needs a big result"

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115370

[zanquis]

Yes as you said it was almost a copy, a copy which was actually performing excellent on the Monza track.

2008 was the year where TR and RB cars where very evenly matched with the Ferrari powered car seemingly better at faster tracks, and Like his boss said, Vettel just learned to adjust his driving in a way to be faster. Cause until a few races before Monza he and Bourdais seemed pretty evenly matched.

After 2008 the TR has been weak compared to the RB car.

[Zava]

Yes as you said it was almost a copy, a copy which was actually performing excellent on the Monza track.2008 was the year where TR and RB cars where very evenly matched with the Ferrari powered car seemingly better at faster tracks, and Like his boss said, Vettel just learned to adjust his driving in a way to be faster. Cause until a few races before Monza he and Bourdais seemed pretty evenly matched.After 2008 the TR has been weak compared to the RB car.

so what if str and rbr were evenly matched that year, if rbr was a weak midfielder itself? Independently of rbr's form, str was and is a midfielder team, though it is no pain for me to acknowledge that the second half of 2008 was their best form ever, from the usual 7-8th team they improved to about 4-5th. still, Vettel did exactly what Juan Kerr described in that post...

[sopa]

so what if str and rbr were evenly matched that year, if rbr was a weak midfielder itself? Independently of rbr's form, str was and is a midfielder team, though it is no pain for me to acknowledge that the second half of 2008 was their best form ever, from the usual 7-8th team they improved to about 4-5th. still, Vettel did exactly what Juan Kerr described in that post...

 

Yes. The issue here was that TR drivers never have a career beyond RB, because they are not impressive enough to be attractive to other teams. But Vettel's 2008 was so impressive that he would certainly have been on the list of other teams, had there been no Red Bull. Heck, Vettel was under consideration already for 2008 McLaren seat, which eventually went to Kovalainen. And had Vettel not got a top seat for 2009, he would have been an important player in the 2010 silly season, which was to follow, either to Mercedes or McLaren team.

[Brandz07]

[lars75]

Strange photo :-)

 

I liked the livery of Max his car, but this is a part of the deal and hopefully the biggest claim of RedBull. Livery of his car and helmet in RedBull colors. 

 

It's quit nice tho! 

[JeePee]

The old car was a bit hard to recognise in the pack. Should be easier with the yellow nose

 

But I don't like the helmet change. Sadly nothing he can do about it.

[Brandz07]

Strange photo :-)

 

I liked the livery of Max his car, but this is a part of the deal and hopefully the biggest claim of RedBull. Livery of his car and helmet in RedBull colors. 

 

It's quit nice tho! 

The sidepods have stayed the same as the team livery, looking forward to seeing a better photograph though.

Edited by Brandz07, 15 August 2014 - 10:16.

[lars75]

The sidepods have stayed the same as the team livery (which I designed incidentally), looking forward to seeing a better photograph though.

 

Well I liked the MAX thing on his sidepot. 

[JeePee]

 

Currently fastest in his new car.

Edited by JeePee, 15 August 2014 - 10:47.

[noikeee]

Yes. The issue here was that TR drivers never have a career beyond RB, because they are not impressive enough to be attractive to other teams. But Vettel's 2008 was so impressive that he would certainly have been on the list of other teams, had there been no Red Bull. Heck, Vettel was under consideration already for 2008 McLaren seat, which eventually went to Kovalainen. And had Vettel not got a top seat for 2009, he would have been an important player in the 2010 silly season, which was to follow, either to Mercedes or McLaren team.

 

Yet Ricciardo was on absolutely nobody's list and many people even thought he wasn't good enough for the Red Bull main team, but now he's proving himself even better than Vettel. That's what can happen if you get on a Toro Rosso - nobody rates you because you're going against drivers that are new too.

 

Vergne was almost as good as Ricciardo last year, has gotten more consistent this year, and his career is about to end.

[TheRacingElf]

I think everybody will agree that Kvyat is going a very good job at the moment, so IF Verstappen will drive at Toro Rosso next year and he can match or even beat Kvyat I think there are many other teams interested in Verstappen as well. Besides that I think Vettel will leave at the end of 2015, at that moment Red Bull can choose between Kvyat and Verstappen and Sainz will be the replacement at STR after a year at Caterham

[noikeee]

Assuming Vettel would really leave at that exact moment, and that Max will really be given a stupidly early debut next year, Max will be 18 by then. You really think Red Bull's going to put a 18 year old kid driving for their MAIN team?

[rjsports]

If he is that good sure they will. What has age got to do with it? If he doesn't make any mistakes, is quick and beats Kvyat, why wouldn't they? You can debate whether or not that will happen though since he is inexperienced he will undoubtedly make some mistakes.

[Priyantha Bleeker]

Nice to see that with the new livery that there is still plenty of space for his own personal sponsors 

 

Although I am a bit sentimental with helmet design's, that's why I liked drivers like the 'older' generation drivers who created at a time in their career a design en where not to alter it.

Like the distinguished livery of the (the British I mean, with Graham, Damon and Josh) Hill family with their very dark blue helmet with the striped of the rowing club, or for example Jacques Villeneuve his helmet with their very bright colours which where a stand out.

But also more recent drivers like Mark Webber who remained to use his own helmet design instead of his team-mate, Sebastian Vettel of course  , who changes his helmet nearly every session   

 

In that view, I do regret that Max' has been 'forced' to change his helmet design in a 'RedBull design' which is not that nice in my humble opinion ;) Although if you look good, you'll see still some typical 'Verstappen' design elements in it

[lars75]

If he is that good sure they will. What has age got to do with it? If he doesn't make any mistakes, is quick and beats Kvyat, why wouldn't they? You can debate whether or not that will happen though since he is inexperienced he will undoubtedly make some mistakes.

 

Did they do that with Vettel? They put him in the main team just after one season at STR and he was runner up to Button in 2009 (his second season F1, first at the main team)

[noikeee]

Did they do that with Vettel? They put him in the main team just after one season at STR and he was runner up to Button in 2009 (his second season F1, first at the main team)

 

He was 21 not 18. And Red Bull were a midfield team at the time (when his promotion was announced), so more likely to take this kind of risks with driving choices.

[zanquis]

The biggest risk with driving a TR is that the car is if the car is easy to drive to the limits and slow also. That way you cannot make a difference with your teammate. It has been the TR problem for the last few years, no driver can stand out if your teammate can easily stand next to you.

[JeePee]

Max does like the rain, doesn't he?

 

Pole position for race 1 on a wet Nurburgring   0,7 seconds in front of the #2.

Edited by JeePee, 15 August 2014 - 16:57.

[Juan Kerr]

1.1 seconds faster than Ocon. The boy is a star, imagine if he was a grown up?

[lars75]

1.1 seconds faster than Ocon. The boy is a star, imagine if he was a grown up?

 

He would be a Super Nova?

[Viryfan]

1.1 seconds faster than Ocon. The boy is a star, imagine if he was a grown up?

 

Interesting that you reach conclusions over talent of a driver after a wet qualy of 20 minutes.

 

In FP both of them were evenly matched in these conditions.

 

 

I think that the gap has more to do with choices of strategy in terms of tyres and track position. Remember that they have only 3 sets of wet tyres for all week-end.

 

It will be raining tomorrow for Race 1 and Qualy 2.

[Juan Kerr]

Interesting that you reach conclusions over talent of a driver after a wet qualy of 20 minutes.

 

In FP both of them were evenly matched in these conditions.

 

 

I think that the gap has more to do with choices of strategy in terms of tyres and track position. Remember that they have only 3 sets of wet tyres for all week-end.

 

It will be raining tomorrow for Race 1 and Qualy 2.

Reach my conclusions? Nah never, I never reach a conclusion, never ever. 

[Ragnar668]

Interesting that you reach conclusions over talent of a driver after a wet qualy of 20 minutes.

 

In FP both of them were evenly matched in these conditions.

 

 

I think that the gap has more to do with choices of strategy in terms of tyres and track position. Remember that they have only 3 sets of wet tyres for all week-end.

 

It will be raining tomorrow for Race 1 and Qualy 2.

 

Making the right choices when circumstances are difficult is part of becoming a racing driver too, and Verstappen did this better as Ocon, this time. Simple as that

[A3]

Jezus, take it easy. If he screws up at the start today, does that make him less of a driver? Many of them are still learning and it goes with ups and downs. He didn't do that well in Austria and there was only 1 post on this topic about that race.

[lars75]

Jezus, take it easy. If he screws up at the start today, does that make him less of a driver? Many of them are still learning and it goes with ups and downs. He didn't do that well in Austria and there was only 1 post on this topic about that race.

 

But he did better then Ocon though 

[A3]

Yeah so? Ocon did better in Moscow and is still leading the championship by a wide margin.

[JeePee]

Max did do well in Austria. Fastest man in race one with a broken trackrod, points with a broken car in race 2 and was hunting the podium while he came from P8 in race 3, with an unfair penalty from the FIA which kicked him out of the points. The results weren't there that weekend, but that was not down to a slow pace.

 

Race 1 on the Nurburgring in 40 minutes time. Wonder what the weather is gonna be, and if Max can put some pressure on Ocon who's starting a bit back.

Edited by JeePee, 16 August 2014 - 08:58.