40 replies to this topic

[SonnyViceR]

LMP1 discussion here

http://forums.autosp...r-le-mans-2014/

 

While I 'might' bitch and moan about the current state and waivers and performance balancing of LMGTE all the freaking time (just loo at my signature), the fact is that the class is still THE ACO GT class of the current day and I just have to live with it. Plus of course Corvette is still there, so... you know. The brand new C7.R does look mouth watering in any case.
 

 

Unlike with LMP1 that has (foolishly) been restricted to run only in one series, GTE can still play on a bit wider platform

- Le Mans 24h & WEC: LMGTE-PRO and LMGTE-AM categories
- USCC: GTLM category
- ELMS: LMGTE category (running GTE-AM rules)
- AsLMS: Unnamed? GT category performance balanced with FIA GT3 and GT300 cars as of 2014
- International GT Open: Super GT category performance balanced with FIA GT3 cars as of 2014
- Nurburgring 24 Hours: possible entrans will be performance balanced with (mainly) FIA GT3 cars

 

GTE will be, according to the FIA, sort of merged with it's nemesis GT3 in a couple of years time to form a format initially called GT and GT+ (IMO doesn't look that great either), but until then GTE and GT3 will co-exist. The classes are rather similar in style today, thanks to ever growing use of BoP and the misuse of "rulebook" in GTE, and both are becoming increasingly expensive.

 

Now, if we talk about entrants, the only (supposedly) 100% confirmed entry list comes from USCC - I refuse to call the series by it's sponsor name - as Daytona is only a few weeks away:

 

For WEC, you are looking at factory entrants from Aston Martin and Manthey Porsche again, and the usual semi assisted Ferraris from AF Corse. RAM Racing from ELMS will also be switching to PRO. In the unneccessary separation that is the AM class, the usual mix of privateer teams and Aston Martin. I don't get why they allow to have factory cars in the amateur category either, it makes no sense. Anyway, there will be no other manufacturers in WEC than those three, plus probably privateer Corvettes from Labre, thanks to factory American cars preférring to stay out. Corvette and Viper will be there for Le Mans of course but that's it. Waiverwagon BMW Z4 probably still stays in US only (those of you saying that the only reason they're not at Le Mans is because it's only IMSA homologated, not ACO - well then why ACO bothered to add the car to ther BoP tables??).

 

Le Mans will get wider array of entrants in terms of entries, with hopefully the likes of Dempsey returning with Proton-assisted Porsches & few AsLMS & ELMS teams receiving entries and such (+ would love the return of Risi and maybe debut of Falken from US), but no brand new manufacturers are expected. In fact the only totally brand new model should be the Corvette C7.R.

 

As noted above, AsLMS and IGTO are integrating their GTE classes with GT3 thanks to low number of entries, with ELMS staying with it's AM-format. Which is no surprise considering that it is an AM series from top to bottom.

 

As for BoP, expect the usual nonsense adjustments from one race to another. Waivers, who the hell knows.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 14 December 2013 - 13:20.

[DanardiF1]

Have to say the Corvette looks completely badass. Don't really have too much to comment on GT really as I think for the most part it's relatively well run and the racing is absolutely fantastic both in the World Championship and over in the States.

[SonnyViceR]

Too bad that the new Corvette will still have to run with an engine that has much lower displacement capacity than it could (/& road car), while Viper can run freely with it's 8 liter waiver powerplant and bigger air restrictors.

[DanardiF1]

Yeah BoP is a bit of a bitch... I still think ultimately it's the best option for keeping GTE affordable and attractive for manufacturers. I don't like how BMW goes about racing the Z4 with a completely different engine and aero package to what is 'road-based', but they're not ACO approved are they so it's just helping keep a varied grid in the States.

 

I wonder when GT racing will go hybrid? There's got to be a time coming soon that big hulking V8's are too out of step with the rest of motorsport...

Edited by DanardiF1, 14 December 2013 - 18:15.

[Victor_RO]

Yeah BoP is a bit of a bitch... I still think ultimately it's the best option for keeping GTE affordable and attractive for manufacturers.

 

I wonder when GT racing will go hybrid? There's got to be a time coming soon that big hulking V8's are too out of step with the rest of motorsport...

 

New GT regulations are expected in 2 or 3 years' time, and they're probably going to be a GTE+GT3 unification (ish). Whether there will be a legalisation of hybrid solutions with the new regulations... we don't know, but for the last few years there has always been the long-standing rumour of Honda/Acura with a hybrid GTE or GT3 car.

[SonnyViceR]

New GT regulations are expected in 2 or 3 years' time, and they're probably going to be a GTE+GT3 unification (ish). Whether there will be a legalisation of hybrid solutions with the new regulations... we don't know, but for the last few years there has always been the long-standing rumour of Honda/Acura with a hybrid GTE or GT3 car.

 

If (and when) it becomes clear that GT/GT+ is going to be just another full BoP formula and regulations are labelled as 'regulations', they might just as well introduce hybrids for the class. It's not like it really matters if it proves to be superior, ACO will just do the same as they did for Ferrari's direct injection and hand them penalties.

 

There was that Porsche GT3 Hybrid couple of years back btw. Was actually mighty against both GT2 and GT3

Edited by SonnyViceR, 14 December 2013 - 18:16.

[DanardiF1]

New GT regulations are expected in 2 or 3 years' time, and they're probably going to be a GTE+GT3 unification (ish). Whether there will be a legalisation of hybrid solutions with the new regulations... we don't know, but for the last few years there has always been the long-standing rumour of Honda/Acura with a hybrid GTE or GT3 car.

 

That's what I'm hoping for... I love the big loud GT cars as they are, but there's not enough variety or provision for variety for my liking going forwards... Hybrid GT cars, similar in shape to the road cars would be great for the manufacturers who don't necessarily want to go full out on an LMP program.

[SonnyViceR]

Could someone more into International GT Open, if there are any, explain if GT1 (old restricted Corvettes) are still eglible for the top class next year? They are merging GTE and GT3 for that category - which will surely be a mess - but I didn't catch a word about the old war horses. Or maybe I'm senile

[Victor_RO]

Could someone more into International GT Open, if there are any, explain if GT1 (old restricted Corvettes) are still eglible for the top class next year? They are merging GTE and GT3 for that category - which will surely be a mess - but I didn't catch a word about the old war horses. Or maybe I'm senile

 

I thought GT Open was going to GT3-only next year?

[SonnyViceR]

I thought GT Open was going to GT3-only next year?

 

No, I think it's

 

SGT - GT2 & GT3

GTS - GT3

 

http://translate.goo...super-gt3s.html

Edited by SonnyViceR, 14 December 2013 - 19:48.

[SonnyViceR]

Speaking of the Corvette, the new C7.R will be officially launched at the Detroit Auto Show on January 13th, ie 1,5 weeks before Daytona. Which is exactly one year later than the production C7

 

It will make appearance at the Roar (NASCAR BoP testing) before that of course

[SonnyViceR]

Larbre Competition has asked the ACO if they can be allowed to run a rented C7.R chassis in WEC GTE-AM next year... now I'm all in for getting C7 to wider platform, but this would be even bigger violation of the "rules" than any of the other waiver crap happening behind the curtains

 

Then again you already have factory (...) Aston Martins in that category running cars that are not entirely year old, but that have been granted waivers and extra BoP from the magic hat *just because*

[DanardiF1]

Whilst all this rule-bending and waiver rubbish is a bit petty... I would love to see a Larbre C7R at Silverstone next April.

[SonnyViceR]

Whilst all this rule-bending and waiver rubbish is a bit petty... I would love to see a Larbre C7R at Silverstone next April.

 

In PRO... yes

 

Then again, if ACO's not ready to have a class with proper regulations again, at least they could get rid of the stupid "car must be at least one year old" rule in AM that's not really being executed very well anyway

[SonnyViceR]

Good ol' Risi has received an auto entry (submitted by ALMS's at-large system) for LM so assuming that they take the spot, which they are planning to do, we have these for Le Mans's GTE-PRO class next year:

 

Confirmed/very likely

Corvette Racing - Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

Corvette Racing - Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

SRT Motorsports - SRT Viper GTS-R

SRT Motorsports - SRT Viper GTS-R

Porsche AG Manthey - Porsche 911 RSR

Porsche AG Manthey - Porsche 911 RSR

Aston Martin Racing - Aston Martin V8 Vantage

Aston Martin Racing - Aston Martin V8 Vantage

AF Corse - Ferrari 458 GTE

AF Corse - Ferrari 458 GTE

RAM Racing - Ferrari 458 GTE

Risi Competizione - Ferrari 458 GTE

 

Maybe

JMW Motorsports - Ferrari 458 GTE

Third Aston

Others

 

Entries will be announced on Feb 13 by the ACO

Edited by SonnyViceR, 21 December 2013 - 08:33.

[DanardiF1]

In PRO... yes

 

Then again, if ACO's not ready to have a class with proper regulations again, at least they could get rid of the stupid "car must be at least one year old" rule in AM that's not really being executed very well anyway

 

They'd need new drivers to run properly in Pro... Bornhause is being downgraded to Bronze for next year, and Canal/Rees are both Silver. When you've got Platinum rated drivers like Senna, Mucke and co in GTE Pro it's hard to jump up...

 

I don't agree with the one-year old car rule either. If a team can afford to buy or run a new car and want to do so in AM let them, the BoP kind of levels it all out anyway, and seeing as Larbre have been the sole Corvette in the WEC it would be better to have them representing Chevrolet with a new car...

[DanardiF1]

Good ol' Risi has received an auto entry (submitted by ALMS's at-large system) for LM so assuming that they take the spot, which they are planning to do, we have these for Le Mans's GTE-PRO class next year:

 

Confirmed/very likely

Corvette Racing - Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

Corvette Racing - Chevrolet Corvette C7.R

SRT Motorsports - SRT Viper GTS-R

SRT Motorsports - SRT Viper GTS-R

Porsche AG Manthey - Porsche 911 RSR

Porsche AG Manthey - Porsche 911 RSR

Aston Martin Racing - Aston Martin V8 Vantage

Aston Martin Racing - Aston Martin V8 Vantage

AF Corse - Ferrari 458 GTE

AF Corse - Ferrari 458 GTE

RAM Racing - Ferrari 458 GTE

Risi Competizione - Ferrari 458 GTE

 

Maybe

JMW Motorsports - Ferrari 458 GTE

Third Aston

Others

 

Entries will be announced on Feb 13 by the ACO

 

Le Mans only I take it? Would love to see them both have a crack at the full championship, but having them turn up for Le Mans is a big deal anyway.

[SonnyViceR]

Le Mans only I take it? Would love to see them both have a crack at the full championship, but having them turn up for Le Mans is a big deal anyway.

 

All of those are Le Mans only. Corvette and Viper especially have no interest in the championship

 

Only AF Corse, AMR, Manthey and RAM (atm) will be submitting entries for PRO of WEC

[SonnyViceR]

They'd need new drivers to run properly in Pro... Bornhause is being downgraded to Bronze for next year, and Canal/Rees are both Silver. When you've got Platinum rated drivers like Senna, Mucke and co in GTE Pro it's hard to jump up...

 

I don't agree with the one-year old car rule either. If a team can afford to buy or run a new car and want to do so in AM let them, the BoP kind of levels it all out anyway, and seeing as Larbre have been the sole Corvette in the WEC it would be better to have them representing Chevrolet with a new car...

 

Even with pro drivers they simply wouldn't be very competitive in PRO, maybe perhaps beating JMW but the factories are out of reach. However, putting all that aside, that's how it should be - as in factories and privateers running togethjer. There shouldn't be a separate category for AM cars in the biggest race in the world. It's not a "everybody's a winner" contest. In the past you had factory and privateer teams racing both in same categories (P1, GT1 and GT2), now everyone's been separated for meaningless sub trophies. I actually salute JMW Motorsports (and next year RAM Racing) for being brave and running in the PRO category with the big boys, and not doing the boring pro-am routine in the amateur category.

 

Btw regardless whether there are waivers and rule bendings involved with Larbre possibly bringing out C7.R, I'd actually rather see the C6.R GT2 at LM at least one more time before it gets retired. It's not like anyone else is running it. It wasn't as dominant and unique model as the original C6.R GT1 but it had good running

[SonnyViceR]

Craig Lowndes is intending to race at Le Mans next year, in GTE with with Ferrari... now this doesn't come as a huge surprise seeing how he has told about his LM ambitions numerous times (and he took part @ VLN at Nordschleife, and Bathurst 12h) but the really interesting bit is that he plans to be in LMP1 in 2015!

 

Elsewhere, it's sort of funny that while the GTLM is the only category not running with spec tires in USCC, it's still all spec Michelins for Daytona unless Falken makes the trip after all (which seems unlikely, even with the old chassis). Although Krohn Ferrari doesn't have tires listed for the Roar yet

[SonnyViceR]

The gap between the GTLM/GTE and GTD/RolexGT doesn't seem particularly big at Day 1 at the Roar, difference being under three seconds between the fastest cars in each class. Then again, if the GT3 cars of GTD (they are in massive majority right now) were in full house FIA GT3 spec and the class wasn't bopped down, the difference wouldn't be even that high.

 

Ferrari will probably get a big BoP adjustment for Daytona seeing as

a) Risi is skipping the test...

b) So far the Krohn car  is way down the order (could be sandbagging, as well as because of drivers)

c) Tracy said this: "“It’s exciting to take part in a new championship, although I’ve never raced in a series that had no rules at a test that was so close to the start of the season. I am sure IMSA will get it resolved and the Rolex 24 will be another great event, both for us and for the series.”

 

I also find it interesting that the USCC put the GTLM as the top headline on their Roar update... it is their factory run class after all. Too bad it's dumbed down behind spec prototypes and that mishmash lead class

 

 

Edited by SonnyViceR, 04 January 2014 - 10:13.

[ArnageWRC]

I really hate BoP and waivers. Race what you sell. And can we have one car for all GT racing? However, for 'GT3' and other non WEC racing, they have a smaller restrictor and smaller rear wing, etc Similar to WRC=RRC/S2000 cars...

 

And no changing of BoP/ Regs during the season - I hate the goalposts being moved during a season.

[SonnyViceR]

However, for 'GT3' and other non WEC racing, they have a smaller restrictor and smaller rear wing, etc Similar to WRC=RRC/S2000 cars...

 

Maybe in USCC and ELMS as they have been artificially slowened down to create a gap, but the FIA GT3 cars in other series generally have about as big restrictors and stuff as the GTE cars, both being BoP clsasses after all. They are about equal in lap times too, as GT3 cars produce more power. GTEs have more electronic stuff and aerodynamics that help but in the end they are quite equal in speed today...
 

 

And can we have one car for all GT racing?

 

No please, that's one of the reasons GT racing is sucking right now and probably will continue to do so with GT/GT+. More classes = less waivers and BoP crap

 

That's my take on it: when you have classes for higher performance models and classes for lower performance, you get more thruthful outcome. When you throw everything into one category it becomes just a huge politics mess, like GTE/GT2 has become in recent years as well... too many different ideas in one basket means complaints from competitors and the organizer starts making stupid allowances to make everyone happy.

 

When you have a real rulebook (not "rulebook" that can be violated) for certain group of models that can be accepted, not every single model imaginable, you have a steady platform. Unfortunately such concept doesn't exist now.

 

Of course for GT3 there never was any plan for anything and you could pretty much run a Lada up there. I was fine with that lottery category as long is was a club racing thingie with gentlemen on board (2005-2008 ish?), but now that it's the class that is dominating all sportscar racing and has big budget factories behind it, it frankly makes my eyes bleed. There are like five or so series left without those damn cars involved...

Edited by SonnyViceR, 04 January 2014 - 13:27.

[SonnyViceR]

Doug Fehan after Roar:

“We're here primarily to work on durability and reliability. -- Without that, you've got nothing and it doesn't matter how fast you go. So we're paying a lot of attention to that. We've got a whole book to write on chassis and aero. All in all, it's been helpful being here, but for comparisons with our C7.Rs to the other cars at this point, it's hard to tell. We'll go out, run a fast lap, then everyone else in our class is careful not to go any faster. You know how that game goes. You always expect that. It's too early to judge who brought what, but it's safe to say everyone has made improvements.”

 

Hmm yes.

[PayasYouRace]

Now I'm finding myself taking more interest in sportscars and GTs again. I'm going to need some sort of cheat sheet to remember all the classes and stuff.

 

Nice to see Aston Martin still about. I'd ask how competitive they might be but with BoP it might not mean much.

[SonnyViceR]

Aston will be competitve because of pro drivers and you guessed, big BoP and waiver gifts

 

As for classes, here's overview of some of the bigger series

 

WEC

LMP1-H

LMP1-L

LMP2

LMGTE-PRO

LMGTE-AM

 

USCC

P (LMP2/DP/DW)

PC (LMPC

GTLM (GTE)

GTD (Rolex GT/GT3/GT3Cup)

 

ELMS

LMP2

LMPC

LMGTE (GTE-AM)

GTC (GT3)

 

AsLMS

LMP2

Unnamed Challenge class (CN...)

Unnamed GT class (GTE/GT3/GT300)

GT-Am (GT3)

 

Super GT

GT500

GT300 (GT300/GT3)

 

International GT Open

SGT (GTE/GT3)

GTS (GT3)

 

SCCA Pirelli World Challenge

GT (GT3/mishmash)

GTS

TC (Touring cars)

 

Continental Tire Sports Car Challenge

GS

ST

 

Blancpain Endurance Series

GT3

 

Blancpain Sprint Series

GT3

 

ADAC GT Masters

GT3

 

Nearly all national GT series

GT3

[PayasYouRace]

I'm going to have to do some homework lol

 

I think I'll stick with Le Mans and it's associated series and the main US series. Not that I have to worry about missing a major event with you on the forum SonnyViceR

[SonnyViceR]

I don't really follow any sportscars outside ACO and IMSA series either anymore (apart from Nurburgring 24 of course, but even there you have that annoying top class).

 

There's Dubai 24h and Bathurst 12h coming pretty soon in addition to Daytona. Those Creventic... races are certainly not for me but I suppose someone could take joy out of them?

[SonnyViceR]

Foster's saying that there's 50% chance of Dempsey(-Proton) returning to LM next year, because of lack of budget. I would have thought that Porsche had noticed the amount of free PR they got last year and started funding their AM entry themselves

 

 

Doug Fehan after Roar:

“We're here primarily to work on durability and reliability. -- Without that, you've got nothing and it doesn't matter how fast you go. So we're paying a lot of attention to that. We've got a whole book to write on chassis and aero. All in all, it's been helpful being here, but for comparisons with our C7.Rs to the other cars at this point, it's hard to tell. We'll go out, run a fast lap, then everyone else in our class is careful not to go any faster. You know how that game goes. You always expect that. It's too early to judge who brought what, but it's safe to say everyone has made improvements.”

 

Hmm yes.

 

What makes this particularly interesting (now that mr Dagys reminded me about it) is that IMSA is -allegedly- monitoring any sandbagging and is ready to penalize anyone that was slowing down on purpose @ this weekend's B... Roar. Then again it might just be nonsense and they're trying to just scare everybody.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 06 January 2014 - 17:57.

[SonnyViceR]

Mr Richards talking quite openly about GT(E) BoP at the end here which is interesting considering how carefully he usually chooses his words in such matters. I might not like AMR's current direction very much but at least the man is honest on public about how the category now works, kudos

 

Edited by SonnyViceR, 09 January 2014 - 19:10.

[SonnyViceR]

Live stream for the official C7.R unveiling at Detroit

 

Edited by SonnyViceR, 13 January 2014 - 15:15.

[SonnyViceR]

Fisichella moving from AF Corse to Risi in USCC which is... interesting

 

And c'mon, you cannot deny the sexiness of the C7.R. God I wished GTE was in better shape as it looks so fabulous!

 

They're not going after waiver engine btw

 

[Victor_RO]

   

 

Looking forward to having that C7.R blow my effing mind and make my ears explode down at night at Arnage in June. 

[SonnyViceR]

USCC GTE BoP tables after Roar

http://www.imsa.com/...etin #14-26.pdf

 

Viper just got yet another bag of gifs. So not only are they running 2,5 liters bigger engine than the regulations allow, 1,5mm air restrictor break and 4mm fuel restrictor break + 30kg less weight than their previous weight break allowed, but also 10 liters more fuel than all of the cars in the class. Yeah superior technology my ass...

 

Still, among with the C7.R they are the only one running "minimum GTE weight"...

Edited by SonnyViceR, 18 January 2014 - 19:58.

[SonnyViceR]

Somehow  Porsche managed to bring even more boring livery for the USCC works Core cars than they did for the WEC Mantheys last year...
 

Edited by SonnyViceR, 20 January 2014 - 19:24.

[SonnyViceR]

Now look at that, ACO does a GTE decision based on common sense for a change

https://www.dailyspo...ar.com/?p=21400

[SonnyViceR]

In a move that shocks absolutely no-one, every single USCC GTE/GTLM model has been performance balanced again after Daytona.

http://www.imsa.com/...etin #14-49.pdf

[F1TestCatalunya]

Is there a place online dedicated to individual driver statistics when it comes to Le Mans, ADAC GT Masters, Blancpain Endurance Series, Audi R8 LMS races, and 12 & 24 hour races in general?

Whenever I try to find out how many laps / hours etcetera a driver has raced, they only show the combined statistics for the drivers, like for example:

http://en.wikipedia....ans#Race_result

 

Perhaps it is not the norm to keep track of this? If so I do wonder why.

 

 

[Victor_RO]

Sadly not. Closest we have (for Le Mans and the WEC) are the statistics at http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/, which are extremely comprehensive, but need quite a lot of sifting through in order to get the driver data.

[F1TestCatalunya]

That's really too bad. I mean, when I see something like this:

 

2010 24 Hours of Le Mans

 

Team - Corvette Racing

Drivers:

Johnny O'Connell

Jan Magnussen

Antonio Garcia

Laps: 225

 

I want to know how many laps they did individually. And I'm not talking about just that result,

but in general.

Is there really no endurance racing series that keeps track of this? Other than the link you provided.

It just seems like basic stuff to me.

 

Also let's say a team only does ~30 laps before they retire, and they have three drivers, most likely one or two of them

didn't get any laps in. So why are those drivers included in the total?

[F1TestCatalunya]

So I just went to the ADAC GT Masters website to see the results of the two races this weekend.

And it's really annoying to see the two-driver team results and not know how many laps each driver made individually,

as broken down per team.

 

Am I really the only one pining for these kinds of very simple stats from ADAC, Le Mans etc?

I'm baffled that in this day and age this simple task of keeping track of the drivers laps is not performed.

Has there ever been like an official statement why not? Or ever been put up as a suggestion in any series?