30 replies to this topic

[arttidesco]

Last year John Paul Mason drove KOY 500 at the Castle Combe Autumn Classic meeting. In the programme the car is described as a Cooper MG T21, I understand that the car originally belonged to Lionel Leonard and at racingsportscars.com the car is described as a Cooper T14 at the Goodwood 9 Hour meeting in which Lionel shared the car with Derek Annable.

Wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to either the possibility of a clerical error through the mists of time, or what the difference between the two model designations is ?

[D-Type]

Doug Nye's Cooper Cars describes the T14 as " Cooper-MG production sports" from 1950 and the T21 as "Latest Cooper-MG sports" from 1952.  He doesn't include any chassis records, presumably because they have not survived.

He gives very little history of the Cooper-MGs but he does say that when Lionel Leonard sold KOY 500 to Horace Gould, the latter fitted Mark 1 Cooper-Bristol (T20) suspension and twin leading shoe brakes. This suggests KOY 500 started life as a T14 and was uprated to T21 specification. 

He also says that many of the Cooper-MGs were kit-built with considerable variation.

 

Martin Krejki lists Leonard as racing JOY 500 in 1951 and KOY 500 in 1952 in 'British National' and 'British International' racing.  This suggests that JOY 500 was a T14 and that KOY 500 being a 1952 car was a T21. 

 

At the time, the 'OY' on the number plate denoted the registration authority, in this case Croydon.  KOY regisrations would have followed on from the JOY ones.  I don't know how long it would take to use the numbers as it depends on the number of cars registered at the Croydon office.

 

Remember that the early Cooper type numbers are somewhat unofficial, having been introduced after the event by journalists (DSJ?) to identify the different models.   I suspect that one model evolved by stages into the other and this particular car could be either.   

 

Ralph, I expect you know all this anyway.  It will take a Cooper expert (which I am not) to answer your question.

Edited by D-Type, 11 November 2017 - 18:20.

[Tim Murray]

Here's a fairly comprehensive racing history of the car, from TNFer Peter Morley's site. I believe Peter used to own the car:

 

http://users.telenet...rs/CooperMG.htm

[arttidesco]

Thanks D-Type and Tim

 

It's all news to me D-Type, Coopers were either Mini's or powered by Maserati V12's when my interest started to gather momentum   

[Tim Murray]

At the time, the 'OY' on the number plate denoted the registration authority, in this case Croydon.  KOY regisrations would have followed on from the JOY ones.  I don't know how long it would take to use the numbers as it depends on the number of cars registerewd at the Croydon office.

As Peter Morley said in the Famous registration numbers thead, Lionel Leonard must have had inside help:
 

KOY 500 our Cooper MG (Lionel Leonard had - JOY 500, KOY 500, LOY 500, MOY 500 and others - clearly he had a fan in the local licensing office)

[Roger Clark]

 

He gives very little history of the Cooper-MGs but he does say that when Lionel Leonard sold KOY 500 to Horace Gould, the latter fitted Mark 1 Cooper-Bristol (T20) suspension and twin leading shoe brakes. This suggests KOY 500 started life as a T14 and was uprated to T21 specification. 

 

How does the the fitting of C-B suspension and 2ls brakes suggest a conversion to T21 specification?  Was that a characteristic of the T21?

[Doug Nye]

Trying to strait-jacket early-'50s Coopers into formal model classificatlions is like trying to juggle fog. Charlie liked to portray available products as 'the latest thing boy', with John adding about some minor feature or another 'this is all the rage'. Simply pinning down a punter and closing a sale was what it was all about. The kits were pretty basic, and serious private owners would all build favoured personal tweaks into their finished cars, whether they had built them from kits - well, really 'parts supplied' - or had purchased another builder's. This was certainly true of proper racers, such as Horace Gould. Remember also that the T-number series is part retrospective...

Don't take this to mean that I made it up, but 'Owen The Beard' in the drawing office applied T numbers once he felt some sort of proper system became necessary. The later Types have a certain uniformity. The early Types - more or less with the exception of the 500s/1000s/1100s and then the Bobtails - exhibited greater, ahem, individuality...

DCN

[Peter Morley]

KOY500 was indeed ours, we owned it for 15 years or so and eventually got round to restoring it!
As for the Type number I have no idea - the chassis number it was registered under was 4/4/52 which probably related more to its date of registration than its type!
As Doug says, the idea that there was a particular specification for a Type number (if a Type number even existed) is rather unlikely.
My feeling was that as far as Cooper were concerned it was a Cooper MG rather than a Type XYZ.
Incidentally the chassis it was built on had a lot in common with the very earliest 500s, so it was most likely based on a used chassis.
Peter

[D-Type]

How does the the fitting of C-B suspension and 2ls brakes suggest a conversion to T21 specification?  Was that a characteristic of the T21?

I responded to this earlier - but my response has vanished into cyberspace.

I didn't make it clear it was was pure speculation.  The logic is that the Mk 1 Cooper-Bristol was the Type 20 so the Type 21 Cooper-MG would have had similar running gear as it was "state of the art" in Cooper terms

[arttidesco]

Thanks for your further comments Roger, Doug, Peter and D-Type

[Roger Clark]

David McKinney's notes say that approx 20 Cooper-MG kits were sold.  He says that Horace Gould advertised KOY 500 for sale on 16/10/53.  The advertisement is in Autosport:

 

This well known, Sports-Racing 1,467cc car with its highly developed mods giving absolute maximum BHP from the TC or TD engine; chassis has been completely rebuilt with new Mk 1 formula 2 suspensions and shafts (hence the exceptional cornering).  2LS to front and rear.  More information to any genuine purchaser.  Plus many spares and can be sold with spare engine identical to above.

THIS IS THE FASTEST COOPER MG IN THE COUNTRY

 

Gould was also advertising an 1172cc sprint/trials special, a Ford V* engined special, a 28hp  Bedford Coach converted to a transporter ... and Remus.

[Sharman]

I'm guessing here Roger but what would the likelihood be that Remus's next owner was Ken Flint? He advertised the car a little later in the 50s at £550

[Tim Murray]

According to the ownership list on the ERA Club site, Gould never actually owned Remus:

 

R5B

 

H R H Prince Chula 1936 to 1937
A P R Rolt 1937 to 1939
A P R Rolt & St.J R Horsfall 1939 to 1946
I F Connell 1946
P H Bell 1946 to 1951
J D Hamilton & P Fotheringham-Parker 1951
H Sullivan 1951 to 1952
V Thomas 1952 to 1954
K Flint 1954 to 1955
J W Broad 1955 to 1956
W F Moss 1956 to 1959
Hon. Patrick Lindsay 1959 to 1986
A L Lindsay 1986 to 2010
C K McCabe 2010 to date

Presumably therefore he was advertising it on behalf of Victor Thomas. I understand however that Thomas was from in or near Liverpool (?), so why would Horace Gould from Bristol have been advertising the car?

Edited by Tim Murray, 11 April 2014 - 09:30.

[bradbury west]

OT a bit,  but talking of Ken Flint, a name which rang a bell in my mind under Verdun Edwards for reasons below,  a search on TNF for Verdun Edwards and Ken Flint brings up  a super thread started by Barry in which Melanie Edwards tells the story of Ken Flint and her grandfather Verdun Edwards, along with a link  to her now active photo set on flickr which is open to all; lovely period shots, which disappeared some time back after the  original posting. A lovely period thread IMHO.

In one picture there is a shot of Paul Kelly.  Bearing in mind the Flint/Edwards Liverpool connections, is that likely to be the Longbacon/Moores Paul Kelly, in which case a rare shot, I feel.

In any case, just a nice thread with personal memories by a family member and some wonderful shots, all captioned properly.

Roger Lund

 

Cannot make a link to the photos or the thread work.......

[Tim Murray]

Here's the Verdun Edwards thread:

 

So who was Verdun Edwards?

 

Roger, have you tried toggling the ‘lightswitch’ icon in the top left corner of the reply box to turn WYSIWYG on and off? I know this has worked for some people who couldn’t post links or quotes. Full details in post 1 of this thread:

 

Using IE and having problems with quoting and posting links/pics? Suggested workarounds

 

 

[Roger Clark]

I don't think it's mentioned in the Verdun Edwards thread, but the 1998 ERA Club Newsletter contains a letter from Wal Brett, who worked for thirty years for Ken Flint, first in Liverpool and subsequently in Fowey (Cornwall).  He starts:

 

"About ERAs - I first "laid my hands on Remus when working in Liverpool for the Thomas Brothers.  they heard about a racing car for sale in Kensington, Liverpool, went to see it and bought it.  The chap who sold it said he worked at Prince Bira's estate in Cornwall and the car was named "Remus".  We could hardly wait to start it up and run it!  I checked the car over, and we managed to "borrow" a spare runway at Speke airport to try it out very early in the morning!  Quite a thrill to hear that wonderful noise.  Very soon after, Ken, who I met on a visit to Bristol, came to live in Liverpool..  He was very keen on motor racing and bought Remus off the Thomas brothers.  Along with a partner, Vern Edwards, they bought a garage in Aigburth, Liverpool naming it Autospeed Garage."

 

A footnote (Tim May?) says "The reference to the Thomas Brothers buying the car from an employee is intriguing - Duncan Hamilton and Fotheringham Parker are usually listed as the owners before Vic Thomas,with the Chula/Bira equip relinquishing their interests in the car before the war when it was sold to Tony Rolt.  Perhaps someone connected with them acted as an intermediary or maybe its royal origins cast a continuing spell over the car which stimulated a bit of romantic fantasy".

 

Anyway, there is a tenuous link with Bristol!

[Tim Murray]

Google throws a couple of interesting items. At the bottom of this Sports Car Digest report on the 2008 Goodwood Trophy, won by Remus, there's this comment:

 

Cathy Thomas says

 

I have taken a great interest in this car as my father and uncle owned it in the arly 50′s. My father purchased it from a garage in Prescot. It was covered with a tarpaulin because the owners son was killed whilst racing it. My father Herbert and uncle Victor Thomas bought it and rebuilt it in there garage Otterspool Motors and my uncle raced in Brighton against Sterling Moss. This is not recorded in the cars history. Lovely to see that the car ‘Remus’ is still going strong.

and under this series of photos of Remus there's this, presumably from the same person:

 

My father and Uncle owned this car in the early 1950's they bought it from a garage owner in Liverpool whose son had been killed whilst racing it. My father Herbert Thomas and his brother Victor rebuilt it. They raced it along Brighton front against Stirling Moss. My father owned Otterspool Motors ( a garage in Liverpool) at the time.

Could this garage owner from Prescot, Liverpool have been the H Sullivan in the ERA Club ownership list?

[Roger Clark]

Who was killed racing R5B?

[Tim Murray]

I thought it might be a somewhat garbled version of history based on the Bolster crash at Silverstone.

[arttidesco]

Is it time for this thread to be merged with the 'proper' ERA thread yet ? 

 

[Tim Murray]

This would seem to be the appropriate thread:

 

ERA R5B 'Remus'

 

perhaps Vitesse2 or Twinny might move the relevant posts across?

Edited by Tim Murray, 11 April 2014 - 17:02.

[arttidesco]

I thought it might be a somewhat garbled version of history based on the Bolster crash at Silverstone.

 

Could this possibly a case of confusion with the death of Joe Fry in the "FKWagen" at Prescott ?

[fuzzi]

Who was killed racing R5B?

 

St John Horsfall was killed driving R11B in the Daily Express Trophy at Silverstone on 20 August 1949 and John Bolster crashed R5B (Remus) in the British GP at Silverstone on 14 May 1950. Remus was fitted with two-stage supercharrging which upset the handling. JVB was severely injured, ending his racing career.

 

Coincidentally both cars were owned by Peter Bell at the time of the accidents.

[Tim Murray]

Could this possibly a case of confusion with the death of Joe Fry in the "FKWagen" at Prescott ?

Joe Fry was killed at Blandford.

[arttidesco]

Joe Fry was killed at Blandford.

[dolomite]

At the risk of diverting this thread back towards its original topic.... here is a photo that I have recently found which was taken by my father at Castle Combe circa 1952, showing both JOY 500 and KOY 500 together.

[Rupertlt1]

Here in 1957:

 

https://revslib.stan...tem/mn356dj5354

 

RGDS RLT

[Graham Gauld]

Having just noticed this I looked up my negatives and this is Lionel Leonard with the car at Bo'ness hill climb in 1953. But I later saw it with Brian Naylor in 1955 at Dundrod when it retired.

 

http://postimg.cc/image/wu69q2zdd/

[dolomite]

At the risk of diverting this thread back towards its original topic.... here is a photo that I have recently found which was taken by my father at Castle Combe circa 1952, showing both JOY 500 and KOY 500 together.

After further investigation this appears to be 25 April 1953 - Horace Gould driving KOY 500 and Cliff Davis driving JOY 500.
http://www.racingspo...04-25-8641.html

Edited by dolomite, 15 April 2016 - 07:43.

[RobMk2a]

Hi,

As part of my TVR research I'm trying to find out a bit more about Jim Hacking's Cooper MG T21. Jim raced and hill climbed the Cooper in 1954. A list of some of the events is shown on racing sports cars under JP Hacking. This thread mention's David McKinney's notes on the 20 Cooper MG. Does anyone have access to the list and also know which Cooper MG Jim Hacking raced. Jim lived in the Wirral so I guess there is chance it was Brian Naylor's car? Thank you for your help Rob Pennington

[Martin Krejci]

I believe that this car from 1952 was T21 while the original RSC website source (Goodwood book) was wrong with the T14 designation. it would be the original Leonard's car from 1951 that should be called T14. www.RacingSportsCars.com was adjusted to my 'current belief'.