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Elfin Formula Junior


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#1 wilga1

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:18

Is this Elfin Mk 1 an Australian Elfin as I don't recall seeing it before?

 

I thought the first Elfin single seaters were rear engined.

 

http://www.formulaju...lfin/Elfin.html



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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:36

I'm sure they were...

This is a New Zealand car, probably from birth.

#3 Lola5000

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:16

Not a South Australian Elfin.



#4 wenoopy

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:33

I'm sure they were...

This is a New Zealand car, probably from birth.

 



#5 wenoopy

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:37

A careful study of the front suspension etc might lead you in a much different direction.

 

Stu Buchanan



#6 john medley

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 10:40

Built by Paul Emery (of Emeryson, UK). imported to NZ by Nigel Russell (a member of this forum)



#7 wilga1

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 01:26

I'm sure they were...

This is a New Zealand car, probably from birth.

 

Ray, you lose 5 points for racing in and pressing the buzzer, but then having the wrong answer



#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 08:07

Not so fast...

I only said 'probably' with relation to its genesis.

#9 wenoopy

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:06

Built by Paul Emery (of Emeryson, UK). imported to NZ by Nigel Russell (a member of this forum)

 

On no less an authority than the late David McKinney(in 2010), I believe it was actually designed and built by Peter Emery, younger brother of Paul. I gather it was called an Elfin, not an Emeryson, but both brothers and also their father, in earlier times, had separately built cars named Emeryson.  

 

Peter built a 250cc formula Emeryson a few years earlier which was also attributed to big brother Paul by some, and was the subject of an apology by 'Motor Sport' magazine in June 1959.

 

Paul Emery was a fairly sharp dealer, he also sold some quite ropey F1 Emeryson cars to Ecurie Nationale Belge in 1961/62, which did nothing to further cross-channel goodwill. 

 

Emeryson_Elfin_Mk_1_Nigel_Russell.jpg

 

2010 photo of the Nigel Russell car.

 

Stu Buchanan



#10 bradbury west

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:17

Stu, I believe Nigel still hosts the Emeryson website on his NZFJ site, which he was kind enough to do for me when Peter Emery lost access to the webhost service which he originally had for his own site. I had had  some long conversations with Peter E at that time and felt that the record needed to be set right as there was a lot of myth and spin around concerning Paul Emery. All is explained there.  When I organise myself I have more salient details for Nigel to post concerning the Emerys, and a couple of others, again on the basis of setting the record straight and giving credit where due, rather than necessarily where claimed. . Clarification about who was which Emery is found on the Emeryson thread. There may be more than one thread  so check it out to get the info as we covered it in some detail.

Roger Lund



#11 wilga1

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 23:42

Built by Paul Emery (of Emeryson, UK). imported to NZ by Nigel Russell (a member of this forum)

Thanks John. So this "Elfin" is a model name for a Emeryson race car, and not a marque by itself.

 

It seems the Formula Junior Historic Racing Association have it wrong on their "FJ Marques" page.

 

It is under Elfin when it should be under Emeryson, as for other multi model marques.

 

Under Elfin should be the Garrie Cooper cars.

 

You would expect better from the FJHRA as the experts on the formula



#12 rbm

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:00

On no less an authority than the late David McKinney(in 2010), ... I gather it was called an Elfin, not an Emeryson...

 

Stu Buchanan

 

so this suggests it was built as an Elfin (not an Emeryson) and this may well be why it is listed as such on the FJHRA website?

 

Richard



#13 wilga1

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 01:47

so this suggests it was built as an Elfin (not an Emeryson) and this may well be why it is listed as such on the FJHRA website?

 

Richard

Richard, can I suggerst you please read Part 5 of the attached, and offer comment

 

http://www.hrscc.co.nz/emerysons.html



#14 hatrat

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 03:43

The same site has some interesting articles on The Chequered Flag, Les Redmond and Gemini race cars :  http://www.hrscc.co.nz/gemini.html

 

Nigel Russell sold the "ELFIN FJ, Emeryson Experimental" (that is what is says on the chassis plate) a few years back and it is still in Auckland, New Zealand owned and raced by Tony Olissoff.



#15 275 GTB-4

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 08:46

The same site has some interesting articles on The Chequered Flag, Les Redmond and Gemini race cars :  http://www.hrscc.co.nz/gemini.html
 
Nigel Russell sold the "ELFIN FJ, Emeryson Experimental" [/size]

(that is what is says on the chassis plate) a few years back and it is still in Auckland, New Zealand owned and raced by Tony Olissoff.

NATG here...but, did Paul Emery (of Emeryson,UK) or someone from Emeryson,UK affix the tally plate writ with ELFIN FJ, Emeryson Experimental? or a later owner?

#16 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:09

Can't answer the above - but from A - Z Formula Cars 1945-1990.

Confusingly, 'Emeryson was used to name three distinct lines of cars................. son Peter, also made the 'Elfin' FJ car.



#17 wenoopy

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 10:30

I emailed the late David McKinney (September 2010) the picture which appears in my earlier post.

 

In part, his reply was : 

 

"Is Nigel calling his car an Emeryson now? It was built by Peter Emery, but was called an Elfin. His big brother Paul was the Emeryson man, but Peter did the Emeryson 250 discussed on TNF recently.

 

I didn't check that HRSCC article, but have read it before. Certain parties were trying to redress the balance between what Paul took the credit for and what Peter did....." 

 

The HRSCC article refers to Emeryson Experimentals Ltd as having some responsibilities with the various cars, but it would seem that Paul Emery rode roughshod over everyone involved and did pretty much as he pleased.

 

Stu



#18 hatrat

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Posted 11 August 2014 - 12:18

Here is quote from Nigel :

 

"While Peters FJ are referred to as ELFIN in publications, they are in fact Emeryson's. George, Paul and Peter all built cars under the same names, sometimes in co-operation, other times individually. Despite Paul having sold the Emeryson name, Peters FJ Elfin cars were badged with the letters EE (for Emeryson Experimental,) the dash plate also reads "ELFIN FJ, Emeryson Experimental, 60 Pitts Lane, Earley Berkshire, England."

 

In Part 5 of the HRSCC article there is a period photo of the Mk1 FJ car before being shipped to the US. The "EE" badge can be seen on the nose so it appears that Emeryson Experimental description was on the car from the beginning. The chassis plate currently on the car certainly looks period.



#19 wenoopy

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 00:38

Here is quote from Nigel :

 

"While Peters FJ are referred to as ELFIN in publications, they are in fact Emeryson's. George, Paul and Peter all built cars under the same names, sometimes in co-operation, other times individually. Despite Paul having sold the Emeryson name, Peters FJ Elfin cars were badged with the letters EE (for Emeryson Experimental,) the dash plate also reads "ELFIN FJ, Emeryson Experimental, 60 Pitts Lane, Earley Berkshire, England."

 

In Part 5 of the HRSCC article there is a period photo of the Mk1 FJ car before being shipped to the US. The "EE" badge can be seen on the nose so it appears that Emeryson Experimental description was on the car from the beginning. The chassis plate currently on the car certainly looks period.

 

That seems pretty damned conclusive! Perhaps we should now stop trying to rewrite history and accept that "Elfin FJ" was the model name only.

 

Stu



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#20 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 05:46

The following is from the Formula Junior listing on formula2.net:

 

Elfin Catalina AUS 1962 Ford 105E /Cosworth Garrie Cooper Elfin Sports Car Co Rear    

Elfin Mk 1 GB 1960 BMC A Peter Emery   Front   2 made   

Elfin Mk 2 GB 1960 Ford 105E Peter Emery   Front  1 made

 

So the first listed, an Australian car, was apparently rear-engined.

 

The Elfin Mk 1 and Mk 2, British cars, were apparently front-engined (2 Mk 1s and 1 Mk 2)

 

Vince H.


Edited by raceannouncer2003, 12 August 2014 - 05:48.


#21 wilga1

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 05:35

The following is from the Formula Junior listing on formula2.net:

 

Elfin Catalina AUS 1962 Ford 105E /Cosworth Garrie Cooper Elfin Sports Car Co Rear    

Elfin Mk 1 GB 1960 BMC A Peter Emery   Front   2 made   

Elfin Mk 2 GB 1960 Ford 105E Peter Emery   Front  1 made

 

So the first listed, an Australian car, was apparently rear-engined.

 

The Elfin Mk 1 and Mk 2, British cars, were apparently front-engined (2 Mk 1s and 1 Mk 2)

 

Vince H.

That reference is incorrect in respect of the Australian Elfin.

The Elfin Catalina was a 1500cc car, NOT a formula junior.

The FJ car was just called Elfin Formula Junior.

 

As for the Emeryson there is already enough on this thread to put you in the right direction for that. 

Quoting incorect sources does not add to the thread.



#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 07:34

Actually it's the other way around...

The prototype Elfin FJr won the FJr Championship at Catalina Park in Frank Matich's hands. Elfin thereafter called the Junior the Catalina.

The 1500 was called the WR (Works Replica) 375 IIRC.

#23 lyntonh

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 08:42

Ah, the proverbial nest of vipers......OK, here we go....From the Blanden/Catford Elfin book page 23.

 

"A final word on the Formula Junior/Catalina from Garrie. 'One point that personally aggravates me is the reference to

Elfin Formula Juniors as Catalinas. The fact is that while both these cars are virtually identical and only differ in minor specifications,

the majority of these cars built were Formula Juniors.'

 

From my reading of Blanden/Catford, only two are mentioned.

 

The first: "a development of the 250 Production Formula Junior, known as the Catalina, named after Frank Matich's successful day at the new circuit, was purchased by Dunlop United Kingdom, for tyre testing for the Donald Campbell assault on the world land speed record at Lake Eyre. The car used miniature replicas of the special tyres used on the Bluebird and 15 inch diameter wheels to accept them. This Elfin was also fitted with disc brakes on the front wheels.

The Catalina, like the 250P, was fitted with pressed steel wheels and cast iron brake drums but was developed to accept engines up to 1600cc."

 

The other car mentioned is the "most unusual being the V-twin Vincent HRD powered Catalina of Graeme Lewis."

 

That means Frame 628 - Graeme Lewis Oct 1962, & Frame 6313 - Dunlop March 1963 are Catalinas.

 

How many others there were, is for others to say, & me to listen!!

 

 



#24 john medley

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:07

I know someone will be able to reproduce an original Elfin catalogue which will reveal all, including 275WR, 250P, 375WR etc -- and that P cars had steel wheels.

 

 I owned chassis 628 long after they put the Hurdy Gurdy (as Dean Hosking called it) in it when it had steel wheels,replaced by John Walker with Cosworth Ford Cortina plus probably Elfin mag wheels, before its big accident but when I got it  it had a Ford Cortina-based engine and NO wheels  so I put Gemini steel wheels on. It still has steel wheels but could easily have Elfin mags. This demonstrates the silliness of defining models largely by the wheels. Then again, let's admit that the builder should always be considered right...



#25 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:27

That reference is incorrect in respect of the Australian Elfin.

The Elfin Catalina was a 1500cc car, NOT a formula junior.

The FJ car was just called Elfin Formula Junior.

 

As for the Emeryson there is already enough on this thread to put you in the right direction for that. 

Quoting incorect sources does not add to the thread.

 

Sorry…just trying to help  :well:

 

Vince H.