3993 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

No it would be weird to  sign a 10 years contract as a works team, specialy if the said team has produced bad cars years after years. The 10 years contract only concerns engines supply, not works status.

You're making that up, you've no idea what the contract says.

[keshav]

This car is turning out into a disappointment. Alonso has made another wrong choice i think.

[Exb]

This car is turning out into a disappointment. Alonso has made another wrong choice i think.

There has been 1 test where they were hampered by issues around getting the systems working together. It may turn out to be a disappointment but its way too early to tell yet. They were always going to be up against it in the 1st year anyway with a new engine, at least give them a chance. The next 2 to 3 years will see if Fernando made a mistake, not 1 winter test and a filming day.

[AyrtonSauna]

Red Bull Honda     With Danny Ric at the helm   

 

No offense McLaren fans 

 

No Offence taken.We have Prodromou

 

In other pre-season news,As an Alonso fan I see This thread is awesome compared to the Ferrari threads us Alonso fans had to endure for so many years.I respect Ferrari and hope they are competitive for the sake of competition,but I just love this multiple perspective in McLaren from every angle;The Japanese Honda view,The Spanish/Alonso fan view,The Button fan view and of course the die-hard McLaren Fans  

 

Makes me want to write some sort of Samurai Warrior wisdom: don't laugh please "He who doesn't sharpen his sword cannot cut heads off"

 

That's what McLaren are doing right now! Sharpening their MP4-30 SWORD!

[shonguiz]

Why commit to an engine supplier for so long then? Risking the possibility of Honda switching to others as a works team from 2016 and being left for 9 seasons in the position that made them leave Mercedes in the first place is absurd.   

 I think that you don't understand something here, it's not that McLaren didn't want a 10 year work status, it's that Honda wouldn't give that to them. Do you seriously think that they would be stupid enough to give them that status for an outright 10 years and risk locking themselves for 10 years with an underporming team ? Heck they don't even know if they would stay that long in F1 this time.

 

When the contract was signed they had only made bad cars in 2009 ( Still won races) and 2013. 2007 and 08 were both title winning cars, 2010 was close WDC and 2nd in WCC, 2011 2nd WCC, 2012 McLaren had the fastest car. 

All their cars from 2009 onwards were average at best, the 2013 being an exception and by theiur own admission they didn't have any clue why that car was so fast at times.

 

You're making that up, you've no idea what the contract says.

I am not making anything up, read Arai's interview and you will see that he only mentions that for 2015 they will work solely with McLaren but from 2016 onwards, they have all their options open.

[Nicktendo86]

Fair enough, I just couldn't see the red mirrors in these shots.
Check out @formula1allnews's Tweet: https://twitter.com/...9296812033?s=09

You're right, the spy shots make it reaaaaally hard to make out the red. Still on there though and thanks goodness it is

[Exb]

You're right, the spy shots make it reaaaaally hard to make out the red. Still on there though and thanks goodness it is

Its like when I try and take a picture with my phone of a moving F1 car, I have no idea what car it was, Toro Rosso, Merc, Lotus, could be any of them (or none)?

[NoSanityClause]

There has been 1 test where they were hampered by issues around getting the systems working together. It may turn out to be a disappointment but its way too early to tell yet. They were always going to be up against it in the 1st year anyway with a new engine, at least give them a chance. The next 2 to 3 years will see if Fernando made a mistake, not 1 winter test and a filming day.

Precisely. So easy ti understand!

[Lazy]

 

I am not making anything up, read Arai's interview and you will see that he only mentions that for 2015 they will work solely with McLaren but from 2016 onwards, they have all their options open.

That's not what he said. Both Honda and McLaren have stated that is a 10 year works deal.

[showtime]

 I think that you don't understand something here, it's not that McLaren didn't want a 10 year work status, it's that Honda wouldn't give that to them. Do you seriously think that they would be stupid enough to give them that status for an outright 10 years and risk locking themselves for 10 years with an underporming team ? Heck they don't even know if they would stay that long in F1 this time.

I understood that from the beginning, it's you that don't understand my point.  First of all Honda is open to other clients from 2016 but Arai didn't say in what conditions, I don't think McLaren has the power to deny Honda if they want to sell their engines to other teams but the McLaren-Honda deal is more than that. The 10 year deal goes both ways, Honda is  locked with McLaren as much as McLaren is with Honda. McLaren may underperform and the Honda PU may be a turd, so what is to gain from a long deal as this? McLaren goes from just buying Mercedes the PU to be Honda's works team and Honda has a platform in F1 long enough to convince other teams and recover from the initial investment. If any of them underperform, well, maybe there are performance clauses too that can unlock the deal...

[muramasa]

Another Arai interview article, not 100% sure it's the same joint media Q&A session on 10 Feb but I guess so. Quite a few unseen comments so here it is.

http://sportiva.shue...15/02/12/f1_84/

http://sportiva.shue.../02/13/post_18/

 

• I cannot reveal much now yet, but our PU is quite innovative, to the extent that rival manufactures will be jealous of it if they see it. You would think, "what? is it this much aggressive?", i reckon. Not only designing each component, but also package itself is quite innovative, using ideas that would make you wonder "how could you come up with this?".
• MP4-30 has been designed under the concept of size zero, so we made enormous effort to make it happen.
• Of course aiming to be the best in both power and driveability is one objective. But not only that, collaboration b/w aerodynamics is strongly required for current PUs. It's easy to achieve high level of output and total power. But there's no point if the PU interferes airflow. So, we developed PU with total packaging in mind. We are confident in the package, and as a power unit alone, we think we managed to build it without sacrificing output level.

 

• The way of trying to find the point of compromise isn't good. We sought higher target each other, and not compromised each other. We demanded more and more from each other. Exchange b/w Mclaren and Honda was something like, "if you want that much, fine, I'll do it too" to each other. It's not that we argue and fight because we're mature/adult, but about technical matter we discussed a lot. Sometimes we requested sth strongly to Mclaren from us. In the end I think we could produce something wonderful, and the most compact car on the grid.

 

• As for Abu Dhabi test, that car was truly for system checking purpose only. Once we sent it on track, we encountered various issues like system not starting, noise etc. But it's something you wouldnt be able to know unless you make one complete car, so we think that was worth it. We are still having problems at Jerez, but all are minor. We could avoid having fatal problems at Jerez because we could go through rehearsals at Abu Dhabi.
• We encountered a lot of minor issues, so had to stop running the car each time a problem occurred. From 3rd day, we managed to make some sets of 5laps, 10 laps runs, and the feeling isnt bad, car characteristic looks good. We haven't done any setup work yet, and other teams arent making attack laps yet as well, so it's meaningless to think about lap time yet.

 

• Right now we're at a stage where we're checking reliability for the race, so trouble is inevitable. Encountering trouble itself is within the expectation, but where the trouble occurs is not necessarily so, so we're helter‐skelter. We found some parts that are weaker than our estimation, some even surprising to us. But what we're doing is development, so that's how it is, I guess.

 

• If it can last the distance of calculated life on dyno, it means it still has too much design leeway. That it doesnt break means there's still scope for more developmental possibility somewhere, more room for improvement. You can't win in such a way. It's a race engine, so there's no point in making heavy engine with a lot of room for safety/reliability. We have to be on the edge. Even taking current reg of frozen in-season development into consideration, you have to set the target high, otherwise you'll have tough time (performance wise).

 

• We've been developing it by setting such target, with mindset that we will make competitive car that can aim for the top. Each piece of puzzle that we gathered is fantastic, and now we're in the middle of assembling it. Sometimes some pieces dont fit well, so we're having hard time in some things. So it depends on how well we'll be able to assemble it in the remaining 1.5 months. We're pressured by the constraints of time, but we don't think what we've done is wrong, and we think we have to carry it through. So, I'd like our fans to be patient and wait and see what we'll do, a little more til Melbourne. It's a bit too early to be disappointed after Jerez testing just yet.

(fans have mixed feeling, anxious that it may be the repeat of 00s disappointment, and hopeful that it will be the rehash of glories of 80s/90s glory again.)

• The engine that was to be introduced for 2009 had enough performance that could meet fans expectations. So, staff who were in charge at that time must have been so mortified and depressed. Still, in terms of accomplishing the technical target, we could complete our mission. Now, we have desire, that we will go get what we have left, what we should have got in 2009.

 

• We do want to respect heritages like those, but meanwhile us doing it right now are looking at future, thinking of making new era. Result we achieved in the past will be meaningless unless we of now achieve success.

-------------

 

some parts may be making you , but yes you are reading it right.

what seem to be certain now is that they are taking quite a risk. Ron Dennis repeatedly talks about "new thing", referred again to it by "technologies where we are the first to deploy them" in the article posted sev pages ago

http://www.espn.co.u...ory/191311.html

I wonder what it is. Whatever it is it will be interesting.

It can turn out to be either of 1.competitive but takes time to get the hang on it, 2.interesting concept but performance is just average, 3,lacking the absolute performance, original concept flawed and needs complete redesign.

Part of me pessimistic (at least for short term), part of me say go for it, Honda playing it safe is not Honda! Arai is confident about some things but quite not sure about some things. At least they seem to enjoying it, which is good. Well good luck to them.

At least it might indeed be 2015 will be test session for 16 for them. I'm ready for that now.

[shonguiz]

That's not what he said. Both Honda and McLaren have stated that is a 10 year works deal.

Show me that

 

I understood that from the beginning, it's you that don't understand my point.  First of all Honda is open to other clients from 2016 but Arai didn't say in what conditions, I don't think McLaren has the power to deny Honda if they want to sell their engines to other teams but the McLaren-Honda deal is more than that. The 10 year deal goes both ways, Honda is  locked with McLaren as much as McLaren is with Honda. McLaren may underperform and the Honda PU may be a turd, so what is to gain from a long deal as this? McLaren goes from just buying Mercedes the PU to be Honda's works team and Honda has a platform in F1 long enough to convince other teams and recover from the initial investment. If any of them underperform, well, maybe there are performance clauses too that can unlock the deal...

Going both ways is another reason why a 10 years works deal is even more unlikely, i think there's a 10 year supplying contract with the work deal renewd every 2 or three years depending on the result and relationship.

[Owen]

That's BS Owen, at least 10 laps reported from people at the track

Ok better I guess

[showtime]

...

 

I hope they fix the reliability problems as soon as possible to see how fast the 30 is. I don't expect too much from this season but if I had to choose I'd prefer a fast troublesome/unreliable car than a tank.

[Timothy]

There seems to be a lot of over confident talk from Aria and Ron regarding the MP4-30, I just hope we don't get smashed on track since I've been sensing an uncomfortable degree of quiet confidence from the likes of Ferrari and Red Bull. Mercedes Is a given, they'll be up front, so Lewis' earlier utterances can be forgiven.

[chumma]

I read on twitter Honda will bring 'major' upgrade for this test.

[Clatter]

Show me that

 

Going both ways is another reason why a 10 years works deal is even more unlikely, i think there's a 10 year supplying contract with the work deal renewd every 2 or three years depending on the result and relationship.

So you only think now, that sounds very much like making things up.

[f1rules]

I read on twitter Honda will bring 'major' upgrade for this test.

 

well they will need it no, things are not proceeding very fast. I really hope they will solve! and we can start to see some real running. They must have some confidence in solving the problems, since i cannot imagine they would set themselves up for such epic failure with all their hype talk, if they didnt think they could sort the car

[shonguiz]

So you only think now, that sounds very much like making things up.

What is so hard to understand, the guy said, we have a 10 year deal, the first year we will only work with McLaren, the rest is open. Now how is that making things up if i am giving my personnal opinion about what was not being said.

[mclarensmps]

The amount of speculation being branded about as fact round here, is kind of worrying

[mclarensmps]

What is so hard to understand, the guy said, we have a 10 year deal, the first year we will only work with McLaren, the rest is open. Now how is that making things up if i am giving my personnal opinion about what was not being said.

 

The deal with McLaren is exclusive engine supply for the first year, but a works deal the rest of the way. Other teams can be supplied, and that can include multiple works deals. 

[Clatter]

What is so hard to understand, the guy said, we have a 10 year deal, the first year we will only work with McLaren, the rest is open. Now how is that making things up if i am giving my personnal opinion about what was not being said.

If you are giving your personal opinion, or interpretation then that's making things up. There is nothing to suggest that the 10 year deal is anything but a works deal, supplying or selling engines to another team does not change the Mac deal.

[shonguiz]

If you are giving your personal opinion, or interpretation then that's making things up. There is nothing to suggest that the 10 year deal is anything but a works deal, supplying or selling engines to another team does not change the Mac deal.

Haha this is hilarious, so i am making things up for giving my opinion and stating it  as an opinion but you good sir are stating truth based on non existing facts, such as this staggering "There is nothing to suggest that the 10 year deal is anything but a works deal".  

[Hollow]

I read the Mercedes thread (just a little) and there's a party going on there...Hey, let's party too. Midfield days are over, McLaren back at the top in 1,2,3...Three months? Hehe.

[onewingedangel]

Once the engine is pretty much locked down there will be little difference between works and customer teams bar the pricetag. The benefit on works status is having early access to the new designs for integration and having a say on certain parameters, which is a boon now, but if the engines are frozen in a few years there will be little distinction.

[BillBald]

Looks like they are still having problems with the PU.

 

http://www.antena3.c...5021600358.html

 

Se desconoce el número de vueltas exactas que ha podido realizar, pero algunas fuentes hablan de que no han sido muchas por nuevos problemas en el monoplaza de Button y Alonso.

 

We don't know the exact number of laps, but some sources say they didn't do many because of new problems.

[KnucklesAgain]

That's solely Honda's business, McLaren has absolutely no say in there.

 

Link to contract please?

[KnucklesAgain]

Another Arai interview article, not 100% sure it's the same joint media Q&A session on 10 Feb but I guess so. Quite a few unseen comments so here it is.

 

Many thanks, muramasa! Quite bullish statements, can't remember any team entering the competition making statements like this. Maybe in the 80ies or something 

[micktosin]

Looks like they are still having problems with the PU.

 

http://www.antena3.c...5021600358.html

 

Se desconoce el número de vueltas exactas que ha podido realizar, pero algunas fuentes hablan de que no han sido muchas por nuevos problemas en el monoplaza de Button y Alonso.

 

We don't know the exact number of laps, but some sources say they didn't do many because of new problems.

I am not surprise to be honest, considering the sheer amount of reliability issues they have encountered so far. Personally, any thing over 60 laps per day in barcelona would be a success.  

[Nicktendo86]

Is that the correct translation? I read it as 'not known how many lapsthey did but some sources say there have not been many new problems'?

[KnucklesAgain]

What is so hard to understand, the guy said, we have a 10 year deal, the first year we will only work with McLaren, the rest is open. Now how is that making things up if i am giving my personnal opinion about what was not being said.

 

It's not quite so outlandish as you make it out to be for a 10-year deal to have some mutual benefits and obligations beyond a simple "you get the engine".

Don't you think it's time you conceded that you don't know the contract and are speculating based on the information you do have? Nothing wrong with that, but not more than it is either.

[KnucklesAgain]

Is that the correct translation? I read it as 'not known how many lapsthey did but some sources say there have not been many new problems'?

 

"Se desconoce el número de vueltas exactas que ha podido realizar, pero algunas fuentes hablan de que no han sido muchas por nuevos problemas en el monoplaza de Button y Alonso."

 

The exact number of laps it was possible to realize is unknown, but some sources say that there were not many new problems in the singleseater of Button and Alonso.

 

Nope, I can see now what BillBald meant, I guess he's right. Native speaker anyone ? 

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 16 February 2015 - 20:20.

[micktosin]

Many thanks, muramasa! Quite bullish statements, can't remember any team entering the competition making statements like this. Maybe in the 80ies or something 

A bullish statements Indeed, which is even more so for a Japanese people who together with Germans are professionally known to be true to their words (more often than not). I am beginning to think maybe some of the context are lost in translation, because for such a large team it would be a PR disaster if things doesn't turn out the way they are projecting. So either the PU is the next big thing or there is a lost in translation somewhere. 

Edited by micktosin, 16 February 2015 - 20:18.

[shonguiz]

It's not quite so outlandish as you make it out to be for a 10-year deal to have some mutual benefits and obligations beyond a simple "you get the engine".

Don't you think it's time you conceded that you don't know the contract and are speculating based on the information you do have? Nothing wrong with that, but not more than it is either.

 

I never said i knew FFS, i only said that based on public information you cannot say that it's 10 year as Work team. It's not up to me to prove it's not the case, it's up to you to prove it's the case.

[showtime]

"Se desconoce el número de vueltas exactas que ha podido realizar, pero algunas fuentes hablan de que no han sido muchas por nuevos problemas en el monoplaza de Button y Alonso."

 

The exact number of laps it was possible to realize is unknown, but some sources say that there were not many new problems in the singleseater of Button and Alonso.

 

But AS tells a different story:

 

http://motor.as.com/...242_860203.html

 

 

 

Según fuentes consultadas por este diarioel equipo completó el programa previsto y con los kilómetros que querían rodar, no fueron muchas vueltas es cierto, pero les sirvió para lo que querían. En primer lugar filmar imágenes para los anuncios, claro eso es precisamente o supuestamente para lo que sirven este tipo de días.
Aunque es cierto que las escuderías suelen aprovechar para tomar datos, para rodar más, para descubrir fallos, nuevas cosas... y en el caso de McLaren para continuar ajustando la unión entre las distintas partes de la unidad de potencia y también con el chasis del coche y los componentes aerodinámicos.
En este tipo de días hay un máximo de cien kilómetros, concretando en Montmeló serían alrededor de 22 vueltas. Pues bien ayer Jenson Button y Fernando Alonso, que también estaba allí y seguirá hoy, no hicieron ese número de vueltas permitido, pero sí más de diez, aunque eso sí a un ritmo tranquilo. Hoy, previsiblemente está previsto que puedan tomar más datos y hacer más kilómetros. Veremos...

 

According to team sources they completed the program and did the km they expect to do. 

They did more than 10 laps at slow pace.

More laps expected for tomorrow

 

Personal opinion, I think neither of them has a clue and are just making reports from rumours and tweets. 

[WitnessX]

Looks like they are still having problems with the PU.

 

http://www.antena3.c...5021600358.html

 

Se desconoce el número de vueltas exactas que ha podido realizar, pero algunas fuentes hablan de que no han sido muchas por nuevos problemas en el monoplaza de Button y Alonso.

 

We don't know the exact number of laps, but some sources say they didn't do many because of new problems.

 

I don't think anybody knows what happened today apart from McLaren.

 

There priority is obviously the PU hardware which they are stuck with for at least two years after 28th Feb. The rest of the car can be developed after that time and in the season.

 

They already said that there will be new version of the engine for the coming test and then a final version at the last Barcelona test which will be the race version. Button said also that Honda was bringing updates continuously. 

 

So I would expect problems as they update the PU and car. However it's a straight forward engineering exercise to find and rectify the problem/design, the parts obviously work ok in a controlled environment so it's the packaging that is the challenge, the data can be analysed back at Woking and Japan and fixed fairly quickly. Aero on the other hand appears to be a bit of a mystery so I'd be worried if that was a problem.

[balmybaldwin]

Fair enough, I just couldn't see the red mirrors in these shots.
Check out @formula1allnews's Tweet: https://twitter.com/...9296812033?s=09

Thats because it is a spy shot of a circuit fence, not the mp30 behind it.

[KnucklesAgain]

But AS tells a different story:

 

http://motor.as.com/...242_860203.html

 

Yeah, I had already edited my misguided post 

[KnucklesAgain]

I never said i knew FFS, i only said that based on public information you cannot say that it's 10 year as Work team. It's not up to me to prove it's not the case, it's up to you to prove it's the case.

 

I didn't take your opening opening statement as one of opinion, and I am guessing from the replies you got that I am not alone:

 

That's solely Honda's business, McLaren has absolutely no say in there.

 

Especially when followed up by:

 

I know this because the Honda boss said that they planned to be exlusive to mcLaren only on their first year. And if they choose to stick to that route for the next years, it's only because THEY wanted it that way. McLaren is no longer the super power it was years ago so that it can force its motorist sales politic.

 

All anyone is saying is that you don't know.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 16 February 2015 - 20:50.

[LeClerc]

oh, look. An argument on the internet !!!!

[Kenstate]

as a side note, did ron actually say that calsonic would be coming onboard as a sponsor? what i would give to see that mclaren in calsonic blue......

[micktosin]

All the speculation about the number of laps and not a single video or on-track pictures 

 

Edit; We have one picture.

Edited by micktosin, 16 February 2015 - 21:54.

[Owen]

(Blurry) Fan pics here by this Spanish Alonso fan.
@Isabelip59: A ver si alguno ve algo ,, las fotos. No son buenas ... http://t.co/soIDXgCu9D

[MP430]

Gonna be a painful couple of days.

 

Hopefully they have gotten on top of their problems at Jerez and make some progress.

 

Arai sounds confident but I fear it will might be a while till they get to where they think they should be with the PU.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing an underpowered reliable PU for the first couple of races. Possibly see how good/bad the chassis compares to the competition.

 

If they can pick up a point or two at Melbourne I would consider that a win based on the small amount  of testing done.

 

 

Pessimistic maybe..... 

[shonguiz]

 

I didn't take your opening opening statement as one of opinion, and I am guessing from the replies you got that I am not alone:

 

 

Especially when followed up by:

 

 

All anyone is saying is that you don't know.

 

The second quote has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing, Even if McLaren remains Honda's works team, they will never ever have the power to dictate to Honda how much they have to sell their engine to anyone on the grid. If they stay as a work team they might vetoes some deals but that's it.  And for the third quote, again and this is running into circles, if Arai didn't day that McLaren will remain Honda's work team for 10 years then it"s false to assume that they are. When i say that i don't know, i mean that of course i didn't get to read the contract, i am simply taking what both parties have said in public since the announcement. McLaren is Honda's work team for 2015. It might stay like that for longer but you cannot affirm that right now.

[Owen]

@f1writers: Tomorrow McLaren will continue with their filming day. #MoreLapsPlease http://t.co/1GYZip56fS

[KnucklesAgain]

The second quote has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing, Even if McLaren remains Honda's works team, they will never ever have the power to dictate to Honda how much they have to sell their engine to anyone on the grid. If they stay as a work team they might vetoes some deals but that's it.  And for the third quote, again and this is running into circles, if Arai didn't day that McLaren will remain Honda's work team for 10 years then it"s false to assume that they are. When i say that i don't know, i mean that of course i didn't get to read the contract, i am simply taking what both parties have said in public since the announcement. McLaren is Honda's work team for 2015. It might stay like that for longer but you cannot affirm that right now.

 

1st bold: This depends entirely on the clauses of the contract which we haven't seen.

2nd bold: Except that you are dismissing as invalid what Dennis has said re "Honda and McLaren together" which was the starting point of the whole disagreement, while assume that what Arai said is complete and correct despite possible problems of translation and usual secrecy.

 

Edit: edited. Whatever.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 16 February 2015 - 22:45.

[shonguiz]

You serisouly think that an entity has the power to dictate to its supplier its entire pricing policy ?

[Newbrray]

You serisouly think that an entity has the power to dictate to its supplier its entire pricing policy ?

 

Yep....Ever heard of Tesco or Walmart

[Nobody]

No it would be weird to  sign a 10 years contract as a works team, specialy if the said team has produced bad cars years after years. The 10 years contract only concerns engines supply, not works status.

 

When you say 'years after years', you mean 2013 and 2014 yeah? Cos apart from 2004 (when they also finished 5th), McLaren's has not been outside of top 4 in WCC since 1983.

That's over 30 years of bad cars, and still going strong!

 

or you might not be talking about McLaren...

Edited by Nobody, 16 February 2015 - 23:29.