3993 replies to this topic

[kosmos]

David Coulthard McLaren and Ron Dennis need a little more humility

 

http://www.telegraph...e-humility.html

Edited by kosmos, 12 May 2015 - 09:24.

[muramasa]

Barcelona F1 test: McLaren-Honda to experiment heavily

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118929

 

"At the previous four races the car was nice to drive," said Boullier.

BOULLIER WAS AT THE WHEEL FOR THE LAST 4 RACES

[Rinehart]

We want results, not excuses... 

More testing, more 'big' upgrades promised, then more disappointment. This circle just keeps on going. 

How long before things will implode? 

Come to think of it: what's the biggest risk at the moment? Is a totale collapse possible? I mean, there's no big sponsor that can pull out. Honda's just in, so unlikely to pull the plug this or next year. I guess Alonso could call it a day? Other sponsors like Exxon could pull out... But would that be a catastrophy?

Drama queen. There is no circle. They keep adding upgrades and developing and the car is improving. Slowly, but surely.

No sense in expecting them to bolt on a golden bullet which will suddenly give them 3 seconds a lap. Its not going to happen. 

[Quickshifter]

Barcelona F1 test: McLaren-Honda to experiment heavily

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118929

[SwedeForceOne]

Been trying to find fastest laps per driver from sundays race but only found Hamiltons. The reason for why I'm wondering is that I watched the race live and was a little bit surprised that Button was able to follow Raikkonen for a couple of laps just after just being overtaken (lapped I think). Is it possible that they changed settings for a couple of laps just to se how it compared to a decent car when going all out with the engine?  The engine sounds sooo bad midcorner/on exits btw, McLaren is definately doing the other teams aren't. 

[NoSanityClause]

We want results, not excuses... 

More testing, more 'big' upgrades promised, then more disappointment. This circle just keeps on going. 

How long before things will implode? 

Come to think of it: what's the biggest risk at the moment? Is a totale collapse possible? I mean, there's no big sponsor that can pull out. Honda's just in, so unlikely to pull the plug this or next year. I guess Alonso could call it a day? Other sponsors like Exxon could pull out... But would that be a catastrophy?

Edited by NoSanityClause, 12 May 2015 - 10:13.

[sopa]

We want results, not excuses... 

More testing, more 'big' upgrades promised, then more disappointment. This circle just keeps on going. 

How long before things will implode? 

Come to think of it: what's the biggest risk at the moment? Is a totale collapse possible? I mean, there's no big sponsor that can pull out. Honda's just in, so unlikely to pull the plug this or next year. I guess Alonso could call it a day? Other sponsors like Exxon could pull out... But would that be a catastrophy?

 

Well, McLaren is definitely up there or should I say down there with the biggest "big team" underperformances. Ferrari 1980, BAR 1999, Honda 2007 come to mind as examples.

 

As for what will the future bring, who knows. Every season is different. 

 

But 2015 should not be attempted to be painted as "beautiful and promising season". It is not. It should be taken as it is. I am sure even the biggest pessimists and even the most conservative McLaren-Honda season goals were not that low.

 

Future talks should be left aside - future will be what it is, and we do not know it yet. We can only rate what we have in front of us. If current stuff looks good, in this case all fails in history are good success stories.

 

Even if 2017 is success, 2015 is rubbish. Brawn GP may have won 2009, but Honda's 2007 was rubbish. Nothing changes that.

Edited by sopa, 12 May 2015 - 10:37.

[sopa]

The good news is that future can only be better though. It can hardly be worse! The only question is how much better.

[ButtonForEver]

 

I'm not a fan, just lurking here, but really don't understand all the drama in this topic. McLaren is exactly in a place where they should be at this point. Anything else would have been a miracle.

 

Last year they had by far the best engine and they were still 1.5 - 2 sec behind Merc, finishing 5th and barely beating Force India.

It could be expected that the Honda engine won't be as powerful as the Mercedes, so to have McLaren on the front, they should have improved like 3 seconds from only aero. Not in absolute values. But relative to the others who are also developing... So we are talking about like 4+ seconds to gain only from chassis. This is extremely unrealistic.

Considering this, they are pretty much where they could be expected. Last year they were like 1.5 sec behind, now it increased to 2.5 with the weaker engine.

 

I'm not saying they won't recover, but it will take time. Not some races, but rather some years. Doesn't matter what Ron is fantasizing.

It took 4-5 years for Ferrari before they started dominating. Same for Red Bull. Same for Mercedes. It takes time.

Also this is still the best case scenario, because there is no guarantee that they will even succeed.... Honda, Toyota and Bmw all spent years and lots of money and still stuck in midfield.

 

All I wanted to say, that no need for the drama at this point and expect miracles during the following races. You can pretty much chill and relax in this season, check back in 2016 and then hope for a better 2017. McLaren might be at the top by that time. Can't see it happening sooner.

 

Sorry for the reality check.

 

 

And why they wanted Button and Alonso as Line-Up if the car needs 4 or 5 years to become competitive?

 

THEY (not some fans) were making those claims, saying that would win immediately, because they had the best drivers and they also had (probably) one of the best car.

 

For now, they are doing a bad impression, and it's their fault if some fans are hoping to win races this year or the Championship next year..

[sopa]

I notice that most of the discussion is about hazy future.

Maybe this car will be good in the second half of the season? In 2016? In 2017?

Surely in 4-5 years it will be winning?

 

Not much to discuss about present... speaks volume. Everything is geared around "mythical future" and that "one day we will win anyway". Almost any team can say that, to be honest. Just that Sauber and Force India would say that "one day we will get a big investor, proper funding and we will win."

[smr]

 

And why they wanted Button and Alonso as Line-Up if the car needs 4 or 5 years to become competitive?

 

THEY (not some fans) were making those claims, saying that would win immediately, because they had the best drivers and they also had (probably) one of the best car.

 

For now, they are doing a bad impression, and it's their fault if some fans are hoping to win races this year or the Championship next year..

 

 

Because they're the best driver line up, a wealth of wins and grand prix between them, meaning the most experience of any driver line up... which in turn is needed to help the car develop and provide the best feedback possible.

[sopa]

 

I'm not a fan, just lurking here, but really don't understand all the drama in this topic. McLaren is exactly in a place where they should be at this point. Anything else would have been a miracle.

 

Last year they had by far the best engine and they were still 1.5 - 2 sec behind Merc, finishing 5th and barely beating Force India.

It could be expected that the Honda engine won't be as powerful as the Mercedes, so to have McLaren on the front, they should have improved like 3 seconds from only aero. Not in absolute values. But relative to the others who are also developing... So we are talking about like 4+ seconds to gain only from chassis. This is extremely unrealistic.

Considering this, they are pretty much where they could be expected. Last year they were like 1.5 sec behind, now it increased to 2.5 with the weaker engine.

 

I'm not saying they won't recover, but it will take time. Not some races, but rather some years. Doesn't matter what Ron is fantasizing.

It took 4-5 years for Ferrari before they started dominating. Same for Red Bull. Same for Mercedes. It takes time.

Also this is still the best case scenario, because there is no guarantee that they will even succeed.... Honda, Toyota and Bmw all spent years and lots of money and still stuck in midfield.

 

All I wanted to say, that no need for the drama at this point and expect miracles during the following races. You can pretty much chill and relax in this season, check back in 2016 and then hope for a better 2017. McLaren might be at the top by that time. Can't see it happening sooner.

 

Sorry for the reality check.

 

 

I think the difference with Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull is that their starting platform was better.

 

With Ferrari I think you mean 1995-2000 as a 4-5 year period? Well, in 1995 Ferrari was a firm third.

Mercedes was a firm fourth in 2010.

Red Bull was pretty decent in 2005, Coulthard got a few 4th place finishes.

 

I think if McLaren wants to look for a positive example, which is very similar to them, they may look at the 2001 Benetton-Renault. Renault had just re-joined F1, were experimenting with a new radical 110-degree engine. In terms of performance Benetton wasn't far off Minardi early in the season! Though they improved a lot to the extent of finishing 3rd in Belgium. And went on to challenge for the title and win it in 2005. So that took 4 years.

 

By the way, by 2003 Renault realized their experiement had failed. In 2003 Renault had an excellent chassis, but possibly the most underpowered engine on the grid. So for 2004 they switched to the conventional lay-out, which helped them to lay a platform as a title-winning force.

 

I think in the current McLaren-Honda package there is a fundamental flaw, weakness. Which needs to be eradicated before they can think about winning anything. And that's why we are talking about "several years", because eliminating a fundamental flaw takes time. But which kind of flaw it is, only insiders know.

Edited by sopa, 12 May 2015 - 11:08.

[pacificquay]

Gary Anderson's Autosport article about DRS is used by him to have further pops at McLaren.

 

Just what is his problem?

[Clatter]

I think the difference with Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull is that their starting platform was better.

 

With Ferrari I think you mean 1995-2000 as a 4-5 year period? Well, in 1995 Ferrari was a firm third.

Mercedes was a firm fourth in 2010.

Red Bull was pretty decent in 2005, Coulthard got a few 4th place finishes.

 

I think if McLaren wants to look for a positive example, which is very similar to them, they may look at the 2001 Benetton-Renault. Renault had just re-joined F1, were experimenting with a new radical 110-degree engine. In terms of performance Benetton wasn't far off Minardi early in the season! Though they improved a lot to the extent of finishing 3rd in Belgium. And went on to challenge for the title and win it in 2005. So that took 4 years.

 

By the way, by 2003 Renault realized their experiement had failed. In 2003 Renault had an excellent chassis, but possibly the most underpowered engine on the grid. So for 2004 they switched to the conventional lay-out, which helped them to lay a platform as a title-winning force.

 

I think in the current McLaren-Honda package there is a fundamental flaw, weakness. Which needs to be eradicated before they can think about winning anything. And that's why we are talking about "several years", because eliminating a fundamental flaw takes time. But which kind of flaw it is, only insiders know.

If there is a fundamental flaw then it's possible they are condemned until there is a change in rules. My hopes still lie with an integration/software problem that is not so much a fundamental flaw, but just tricky to solve, and I'm sure the engine use rules means they can't move forward with updates as quickly as they would like to.

[Clatter]

Gary Anderson's Autosport article about DRS is used by him to have further pops at McLaren.

 

Just what is his problem?

Just ignore him, it's not that difficult.

[CPR]

Half the day done. Looks more or less what I was expecting given that there's a newbie driver behind the wheel - short stints while aero testing etc (sort of thing you'd do in FP1). They're probably asking him to do consistent laps while they test out various developments and settings.
 
Probably more of the same this afternoon. May not see any proper hot laps until Jenson tests tomorrow.
 



Edit: Some more pics/analysis over here:
http://www.f1technic...1370&start=2025

Some RW flowvis tests. No front flowvis tests yet, darn it!

Edited by CPR, 12 May 2015 - 11:31.

[Vesuvius]

Carmen Jordan: McLaren  and Honda parthership cracking already: http://www.suomif1.c...sa-jo-ongelmia/

 

"couple of  races ago, I talked with one of their engineers and he/she told me, that they are fed up with japaneses," Jordan told to spanish AS-magazine

 

"he/she said, that japaneses want to try a same thing two or three times, even if McLaren engineers have already said, and knows it won´t work and that another solution is better. That´s why they are losing so much time."

 

 

 

 

Former F1-driver Mika Salo commented at barcelona, when looking at the car driving around the track, that it´s not only engine that´s bad but also the car doesn´t look good to drive either.

[Requiem84]

I hope Mclaren renewed their PR department and forbid Ron, Eric, JB and FA to use the phrase 'unlock potential' ^^.

[muramasa]

looks like that thing in the lower airbox is pitot tube or some sort of pressure sensor. at first I thought it was a fin.

I hope Mclaren renewed their PR department and forbid Ron, Eric, JB and FA to use the phrase 'unlock potential' ^^.

yes.

• extract the unrealized capability
• unleash the quiescent power
• knock and awaken dormant possibility
• open the unopened

etc
many ways to say 😁
thesaurus is you friend 😄

Edited by muramasa, 12 May 2015 - 12:27.

[Imateria]

Half the day done. Looks more or less what I was expecting given that there's a newbie driver behind the wheel - short stints while aero testing etc (sort of thing you'd do in FP1). They're probably asking him to do consistent laps while they test out various developments and settings.
 
Probably more of the same this afternoon. May not see any proper hot laps until Jenson tests tomorrow.
 



Edit: Some more pics/analysis over here:
http://www.f1technic...1370&start=2025

Some RW flowvis tests. No front flowvis tests yet, darn it!

Turvey's not exactly a newbie, he's been their test driver for several years now. And since testing loads of new bits is exactly what they're doing they have no reason to go hunting lap time just yet.

[McLobby]

Because they're the best driver line up, a wealth of wins and grand prix between them, meaning the most experience of any driver line up... which in turn is needed to help the car develop and provide the best feedback possible.

 

 

I am sure Alonso didn't sign up just to provide some feedback and help his ''buddy'' Ron Dennis get out of trouble.

Who knows what they promised him? Probably ''domination''

 

Yes it's their 1st year and we can act normal, as everything is on track. but I am sure they expected their new Era to start a lot better, than a total embarrassment  for both companies.

I didn't expected wins this year either, but at least they should be ready and reliable so they can move forward, not the circus we see now for 5 races in a raw.

 

I don't really blame McLaren for this free fall, how can they work on aero and setup the car when the engine is extremely slow and the drivability's a nightmare...

 

 

Honda, clearly weren't ready, and they clearly failed to make a good start with a competitive design to homologate .

With these rules and less tokens than the others, a bad design cannot be changed easily or entirely...

 

Honda should come in 2016 and homologate a solid sophisticated PU where you can build on...

 

Does anyone know how many tokens will they need now to introduce the spec they tried earlier (with MGU's in the right position) and FIA didn't let them?

[Stephane]

.

 

Honda should come in 2016 and homologate a solid sophisticated PU where you can build on...

 

 

They can not do that. The PU can only be homologated once, and that was done this year. For next year, they will have tokens to use.

[tweiss]

imho Mac and Honda are screwed with no testing... everybody is.

[McLobby]

They can not do that. The PU can only be homologated once, and that was done this year. For next year, they will have tokens to use.

 

I meant, Honda should make their debut in 2016, because they obviously were not ready.

As for 2015 McLaren, they could very well stay with Merc's and make progress on their promising pace of the MP4- 29 that they achived by the end of 2014's season.

Edited by McLobby, 12 May 2015 - 12:30.

[Rinehart]

 

Honda should come in 2016 and homologate a solid sophisticated PU where you can build on...

 

I'm sure if Honda had deferred a year and come in, in 2016, McLaren-Honda would be further behind in Australia 2016 than they will be going this route. 

Racing is an accelerator of technical development. 

They probably also would not been able to sign Alonso.

Edited by Rinehart, 12 May 2015 - 12:35.

[tkulla]

They can not do that. The PU can only be homologated once, and that was done this year. For next year, they will have tokens to use.

 

Or maybe Acura could enter in 2016 with a different design. 

[oetzi]

looks like that thing in the lower airbox is pitot tube or some sort of pressure sensor. at first I thought it was a fin.

yes.

• extract the unrealized capability
• unleash the quiescent power
• knock and awaken dormant possibility
• open the unopened

etc
many ways to say 😁
thesaurus is you friend 😄

Surely McLaren would be more likely to 'vivify the nascent prepotency' or 'disintermediate the inherent rapidity'?

Edited by oetzi, 12 May 2015 - 12:55.

[oetzi]

I'm sure if Honda had deferred a year...
They probably also would not been able to sign Alonso.

Well that would have been 20 million saved.

[Sebastien007]

Mclaren will know the garage very well, after 1 hour after lunch breack in Spain they didn't went out, like they just don't need to run.

[McLobby]

I'm sure if Honda had deferred a year and come in, in 2016, McLaren-Honda would be further behind in Australia 2016 than they will be going this route. 

Racing is an accelerator of technical development. 

They probably also would not been able to sign Alonso.

 

Maybe you are right, But if they stayed with Merc for 2015 they would have saved the embarrassment, they might had a podium or two, maybe a sponsor, more TV and championship money, more experience with the PUs and maybe they could grab some  info on Merc's software engine mapping, and finaly a much better Honda engine in 2016 with one more year of research and development. where the tokens would be dedicated only to performance instead of managing the flaws.

 

The ultimate goal is to catch Mercedes and without any doubt this bad start  will cost us in the future.

[03011969]

It doesn't matter hugely whether McLaren finish 2nd in the WDC or 8th.  This is a development year, not a WDC-contender year. 2016 could upset a lot of people who think McLaren are down and out.

[chrisPB15]

Well that would have been 20 million saved.

 

Business isn't as simple as that. Honda and McLaren are getting a hell of a lot of attention and a lot of it has to do with their star driver line-up. 

[topical]

Don't like the sound of this radical experimentation they're doing at the test. Up till a few days ago the talk was all about improving step-by-step. Suddenly throwing anything and everything at the car reeks of desperation and panic.

[oetzi]

Business isn't as simple as that. Honda and McLaren are getting a hell of a lot of attention and a lot of it has to do with their star driver line-up.

They could probably do without the attention they're getting right now. And there's the £x million they'll lose in prize money to consider too. And the fact this won't make it any easier to get the price they demand from sponsors.

All money that won't be going into the car.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

you mean in season?

No. Because of our reliability problems during preseason tests, I consider in season tests as our preseason tests yet  

Edited by RYARLE, 12 May 2015 - 13:10.

[Clatter]

Maybe you are right, But if they stayed with Merc for 2015 they would have saved the embarrassment, they might had a podium or two, maybe a sponsor, more TV and championship money, more experience with the PUs and maybe they could grab some  info on Merc's software engine mapping, and finaly a much better Honda engine in 2016 with one more year of research and development. where the tokens would be dedicated only to performance instead of managing the flaws.

 

The ultimate goal is to catch Mercedes and without any doubt this bad start  will cost us in the future.

And it would hurt just as much next season with Honda having no real world information on their PU. They had to bite the bullet sometime and yes it's painful at the moment, but we are only 5 race's into the season and it's not time to write off future seasons yet. 

[McLobby]

Mclaren will know the garage very well, after 1 hour after lunch breack in Spain they didn't went out, like they just don't need to run.

 

 

Ron is too soft on this. If I was in charge, they would only get a cold sandwitch on the run, while working their @$$ off all day.

[Clatter]

Don't like the sound of this radical experimentation they're doing at the test. Up till a few days ago the talk was all about improving step-by-step. Suddenly throwing anything and everything at the car reeks of desperation and panic.

Rubbish. Step by step is what they need to do at the race weekends so as to not make things worse than they are, This is testing that doesn't compromise anything so I would hope they throw everything they have in the mix to get data for future races.

[smr]

Mclaren will know the garage very well, after 1 hour after lunch breack in Spain they didn't went out, like they just don't need to run.

Maybe their just sandbagging all the GP weekends and tests until Monaco.

[topical]

Rubbish. Step by step is what they need to do at the race weekends so as to not make things worse than they are, This is testing that doesn't compromise anything so I would hope they throw everything they have in the mix to get data for future races.

 

Given the huge problems they already have, I'd rather they concentrate on getting the damn car running reliably. Experimentation is pointless unless there's a base to work from.

[sopa]

If there is a fundamental flaw then it's possible they are condemned until there is a change in rules. My hopes still lie with an integration/software problem that is not so much a fundamental flaw, but just tricky to solve, and I'm sure the engine use rules means they can't move forward with updates as quickly as they would like to.

 

The issue is that McLaren-Honda is well behind even perhaps their most modest performance projections. It means there must be a fundamental flaw, which they have not taken into account.

 

There was also a fundamental flaw in Honda 2007. Their wind tunnel was faulty plus they were lacking lots of high-profile aerodynamicists in the team. They famously hired Ross Brawn late that year, but not only - IIRC they hired lots of aerodynamicists from other teams, i.e from BMW Sauber (Jorg Zander that was I think).

[Clatter]

Given the huge problems they already have, I'd rather they concentrate on getting the damn car running reliably. Experimentation is pointless unless there's a base to work from.

That's more in the control of Honda than Mclaren, but there's no reason why they can't do both. Messing about with the aero is unlikely to cause an issue with the PU.

[Clatter]

The issue is that McLaren-Honda is well behind even perhaps their most modest performance projections. It means there must be a fundamental flaw, which they have not taken into account.

 

There was also a fundamental flaw in Honda 2007. Their wind tunnel was faulty plus they were lacking lots of high-profile aerodynamicists in the team. They famously hired Ross Brawn late that year, but not only - IIRC they hired lots of aerodynamicists from other teams, i.e from BMW Sauber (Jorg Zander that was I think).

Of course there is a flaw. They have not got the PU working properly yet, but they have only had a few races and are limited on what they can do to the PU due to the homologation rules. It's not a good situation to be in, but hopefully there will be some major modifications coming and they will start to turn the corner. Panicking doesn't help anyone.

[Christophe77]

The issue is that McLaren-Honda is well behind even perhaps their most modest performance projections. It means there must be a fundamental flaw, which they have not taken into account.

 

There was also a fundamental flaw in Honda 2007. Their wind tunnel was faulty plus they were lacking lots of high-profile aerodynamicists in the team. They famously hired Ross Brawn late that year, but not only - IIRC they hired lots of aerodynamicists from other teams, i.e from BMW Sauber (Jorg Zander that was I think).

Jorg Zander indeed. Now hired by Audi, interestingly enough...

[Stephane]

Car ready to go back out again. https://twitter.com/...121183591161856

[smr]

that nose....

 

[frosty125]

Are teams allowed to run experimental PUs in this test?

[Quickshifter]

Some serious decision making will be undertaken after this test and that is the reason why radical changes are being made as reflected in today's testing. As said by EB earlier Mclaren are more interested in mailing the direction they want to go than testing parts in this test.

[acey]

Don't need to look any further than Williams to see where McLaren are heading for the next couple of years.

[CPR]

Mid-day report:

http://en.f1i.com/ne...ace-turvey.html

 

 

“We started with aero runs in the first couple of hours and had a few sensor issues which unfortunately made that programme a little shorter, but we still got some useful data from that. After that we’re working on more aero running, looking at the rear wing, running through some different rear wing options.

 

“We’re looking at the upcoming races so we ran a Canada-spec rear wing, just data gathering for the team, trying to drive consistent laps, not using the DRS on every lap. There were three data gathering runs, it would have been good to get a few more laps, but from my side I'm enjoying driving the car.

 

More info and comments in the link.