354 replies to this topic

[sterlingfan2000]

Eccelstone is pushing a Return for V8 Power United with atleast 1000BHP.
Thoughts?

Seriously why not go back to V10 with 1200BHPBHP?

[Stephane]

Or V12 with 1500BHP ?

[Stephane]

Seriously, just give them 100kg of fuel, and total freedom on the rest.

[Andrew Hope]

I want the days when I was too busy playing Pokemon cards and high-tailing it away from girls with cooties back, but it ain't gonna happen, is it?

[7MGTEsup]

I'm sure Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda would love to throw away the £100's of millions they invested in the new engines just to please Eccelstone. More boost more revs and 150kg fuel limit would give them more power and a bit more noise. Or just limit the boost so they have to rev to 15000rpm to make the power.

[SCUDmissile]

Can't wait till the year 2150 when we are all fed up with Planet Edmunds and want Earth back.

[Tourgott]

I'm sure Mercedes would love to throw away the £100's of millions they invested in the new engines and lose their huge advantage.

 

/fixed that for you

[Otaku]

Seriously, just give them 100kg of fuel, and total freedom on the rest.

[jestaudio]

Why not go back to cosworth engines if folk really one to get nostalgic about engines, or accept things are moving on

[Fatgadget]

Assuming he has got that much power over everything F1..Why didnt he veto the decision to introduce these hybrid V6 turbos what...5 years ago when they were first mooted?

[Disgrace]

Why not go further back? Have the cars horse-drawn. It's high time we put the horse back into horsepower. Not sure how the circuits will cope with sheltering up to 20,000 horses though.

[Fatgadget]

Why not go back to cosworth engines if folk really one to get nostalgic about engines, or accept things are moving on

You left out carburettors  and drum brakes and  H patten gearshifting ! 

Edited by Fatgadget, 16 April 2015 - 17:37.

[garagetinkerer]

I'm sure Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda would love to throw away the £100's of millions they invested in the new engines just to please Eccelstone. More boost more revs and 150kg fuel limit would give them more power and a bit more noise. Or just limit the boost so they have to rev to 15000rpm to make the power.

Renault and Honda are already pooping off... away into sunset. Do you think running at higher revs will make the engines more reliable? That will increase the gap at the front. For what it is worth, i've always been against hobbling teams like this, unless it may be deemed against the spirit of the rules or regulation itself. I think, that Ecclestone thinks, that this will allow to kill two birds (concerns about noise et all, and gap at front) with one stone.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 16 April 2015 - 17:21.

[garagetinkerer]

Why not go further back? Have the cars horse-drawn. It's high time we put the horse back into horsepower. Not sure how the circuits will cope with sheltering up to 20,000 horses though.

 

 

gasp, speechless

Edited by garagetinkerer, 16 April 2015 - 17:21.

[Alburaq]

I love turbo engines, I like downsizing and the efficiency elvels we already reached with these PUs is amaizing... but...*
What if we get the 2013 V8 back and update them with direct injection, variable admission (and camless distribution) and a more powerfull ERS? Basically, jsut reworked cylinder heads...

We would get the sound back, the engines would be very efficient and we would keep costs (and even weight) under control.
F1 becomes a showcase and a technology laboratory again. F1 would get as extreme and exclusive as before and be closer to the road cars in the same time... It would be a reference and an example to follow. It would stand out and be unique because it followed a different route.
Endurance already have hybrid turbos...

Engine makers wouldnt start from a blank sheet; they already have 2013 V8s and they already worked on more advanced V8 prototypes. F1 manufacturers would be admired for transforming those old outdated and gluttonous V8s in very efficient and clean engines, witout loosing the F1 identity and touch.

*F1 lost so many qualities in exchange. It lost the sound, the cars become much heavier and slower for much higher costs that wont sink very much...
A 2.0 V8 would be less powerfull and less efficient but it is an excellent 'compromise'.
And what if we let the teams chose beween updated V8 and the current PU?

Edited by Alburaq, 16 April 2015 - 17:34.

[quaint]

Why not go back to cosworth engines if folk really one to get nostalgic about engines, or accept things are moving on

I don't think nostalgia is the point here. People wanting V8s or V10s back simply want back the high-revving sound F1 was known for since the mid '90s. I wouldn't say it was unthinkable if for the vast majority of current F1 fans, the timeframe from '95 up to 2013 forms the bulk of their following this sport.

[Tourgott]

Assuming he has got that much power over everything F1..Why didnt he veto the decision to introduce these hybrid V6 turbos what...5 years ago when they were first mooted?

 

That's what he tried.

Btw. to be fair, Bernie is not the only one who says that returning to V8 is the only way F1 could survive.

 

http://www.motorspor...a-15041413.html

[Frank Tuesday]

Seriously, just give them 100kg of fuel, and total freedom on the rest.

Just tell them they have to supply any and every team that is willing to pay $5M per year, and give them total freedom after that. 

[TheRacingElf]

Where can I pre-order a GP ticket for 2017?

[P123]

V8s... lol! I'm sure his REd Bull mates are pushing for it, but really, what was so spectacular about the V8s we had? It certainly wasn't the noise. Or the challenge for the drivers.

Edited by P123, 16 April 2015 - 17:33.

[Quickshifter]

I am a Mclaren fan and despite Honda struggling at the moment i do not want to go back to V8s. What is more important is for costs to be brought down for smaller teams . At the moment the likes of Sauber, Force India and Lotus are struggling to cope. After investing so much time, money and resources in to the hybrid engine formula it would be downright absurd financially to go back to V8s. Thankfully Eccelstone does not have a say in deciding the engine rules or else F1 would be running around circles forever. Whether we like it or not Hybrids are the future with fossil fuels getting scarcer by the day. The thing which is most absurd for me is not the hybrid engine rather  this stupid decision to reduce the engine allocation to 4 especially with Renault playing catchup and Honda being the new entrant. Ferrari have done an outstanding job engine wise but Renault seems to have gone backwards on reliability in search of horsepower.

 

The problem being drivers conserving engine not just in practice sessions but in races as well which is simply unacceptable imho. Giving some form of incentive to drivers using less engines is a better way to go than imposing penalties. I could understand if the penalties started after half a dozen power units but right now i would be embarrassing and farcical to see a talented driver like Ricciardo starting at the back of the grid  for no mistake of his. Just look at how egos work in formula 1. Engine allocation was supposedly agreed to be increased to five but that seems to have been put in to cold storage. Rather than changing the engine specifications what formula one needs is somebody taking charge of the situation where these farcical situations of lesser teams not being able to develop their cars on account of the exorbitant money spent on the engine and ludicrous engine penalties starting from as early as Europe for some teams is addressed.

Edited by Quickshifter, 16 April 2015 - 17:35.

[garagetinkerer]

Where can I pre-order a GP ticket for 2017?

Yes, i wouldn't mind watching a race at the track, if they get some of the noise back . As when the car goes around the track, you can hear it going/ coming, even if not see it. Sorry, if this sounds rather juvenile, but i have at a road show been barely 20-30 odd feet or so away from a car that did 339 KMPH. It was, beautiful.

 

That's what he tried.

Btw. to be fair, Bernie is not the only one who says that returning to V8 is the only way F1 could survive.

 

http://www.motorspor...a-15041413.html

I don't know what to think of Kolles, but this may be entirely believable. I don't blame Mercedes for looking out for its own interests.

 

V8s... lol! I'm sure his REd Bull mates are pushing for it, but really, what was so spectacular about the V8s we had? It certainly wasn't the noise. Or the challenge for the drivers.

Ahem, you do see what is happening with the turbo engines aren't you? How can you be sure that Renault wouldn't come with an entire new steaming pile of poop? Afterall, before they got the V8's working to specification, they were quite short on horsepower.

[garagetinkerer]

I am a Mclaren fan and despite Honda struggling at the moment i do not want to go back to V8s. What is more important is for costs to be brought down for smaller teams . At the moment the likes of Sauber, Force India and Lotus are struggling to cope. After investing so much time, money and resources in to the hybrid engine formula it would be downright absurd financially to go back to V8s. Thankfully Eccelstone does not have a say in deciding the engine rules or else F1 would be running around circles forever. Whether we like it or not Hybrids are the future with fossil fuels getting scarcer by the day. The thing which is most absurd for me is not the hybrid engine rather  this stupid decision to reduce the engine allocation to 4 especially with Renault playing catchup and Honda being the new entrant. Ferrari have done an outstanding job engine wise but Renault seems to have gone backwards on reliability in search of horsepower.

 

The problem being drivers conserving engine not just in practice sessions but in races as well which is simply unacceptable imho. Giving some form of incentive to drivers using less engines is a better way to go than imposing penalties. I could understand if the penalties started after half a dozen power units but right now i would be embarrassing and farcical to see a talented driver like Ricciardo starting at the back of the grid  for no mistake of his. Just look at how egos work in formula 1. Engine allocation was supposedly agreed to be increased to five but that seems to have been put in to cold storage. Rather than changing the engine specifications what formula one needs is somebody taking charge of the situation where these farcical situations of lesser teams not being able to develop their cars on account of the exorbitant money spent on the engine and ludicrous engine penalties starting from as early as Europe for some teams is addressed.

Ahem, costs are a red herring really. For what it is worth, a team used to spend as much on an unlimited supply of V10 engines. Then V8, which were further restricted to 8 per season, but mind they still cost as much as unlimited supply of V10 engines. I think a lot of teams are spending as much on 4 engines per season (5 last year), if not actually more. IIRC, they're spending more on the engines now than they did before. So yes, it is best to look at trends over a year with respect to reducing costs, and engines, and that has been in my opinion, nothing but a red herring. May be it is cheaper for manufacturers, but i think it is certainly not cheaper for customer teams.

 

edit: To add to the woes, sponsorship is a proper bother.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 16 April 2015 - 17:44.

[SanDiegoGo]

REMOVE THE MGU-H. JUST DO IT.

[northanmonkee2]

When the wind changes so does Bernie
@NobleF1: Good find by @mattofautosport today on Bernie saying V8s were a mistake back in 2006... http://t.co/BrlLta81kE

[Atreiu]

When the wind changes so does Bernie
@NobleF1: Good find by @mattofautosport today on Bernie saying V8s were a mistake back in 2006... http://t.co/BrlLta81kE

 

LOL

[KingTiger]

Bernard is, like always, incorrect. Tv viewers and track goers are down not because of the V6 but because he's put F1 behind a paywall for every major audience. These V6s give much superior racing, I will argue this point day and night with anyone that dares.

While the sound of the new engines is less, I do not believe it is worse in any way. The V8 were loud but it was an ugly noise, most people at the track wore ear plugs anyway. The old V10 made a sound that was to be admired but that is not relevant.

I agree the costs are not where they should be but bringing back 10yr designs and pushing them to 1000 hp will not be 5m/yr. Which doesn't even matter because we'd left with 1 engine manufacturer (Cosworth is dead and their useless engine wouldn't be competitive at 5m per team anyway) and maybe 4-5 teams with the budgets to race in F1 without factory support.

[Fastcake]

Yeah yeah, we've heard it all before, and it still isn't happening.

[Tourgott]

When the wind changes so does Bernie
@NobleF1: Good find by @mattofautosport today on Bernie saying V8s were a mistake back in 2006... http://t.co/BrlLta81kE

 

I don't see the problem. He was right back then and he is right now. There are a lot of good reasons to go back to V8, maybe with advanced ERS like mentioned above.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Seriously? Does Ecclestone want to put a nail in the coffin on teams like Force India and Sauber for good? They should never have left the V8 era at all.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 16 April 2015 - 17:55.

[shonguiz]

Not going to happen, F1 has to be in line with current downsizing trend in the auto tech, otherwise auto manufacturers bare Ferrari will go.

[Szoelloe]

If Bernie wants the V8 back, it is guaranteed  that it will not be back. Thank god for that.

[Tourgott]

Bernard is, like always, incorrect. Tv viewers and track goers are down not because of the V6 but because he's put F1 behind a paywall for every major audience. These V6s give much superior racing, I will argue this point day and night with anyone that dares.

 

That's verifiable wrong.

 

Edit - And yes, V6 gave us such awesome races like Australia and China 2015... 

Edited by Tourgott, 16 April 2015 - 18:02.

[jestaudio]

That chart has no correlation to the quality of the racing only the popularity of the sport in general, you may as well say the sport has been in decline since a german wasn't winning

[Atreiu]

That's verifiable wrong.

 

Edit - And yes, V6 gave us such awesome races like Australia and China 2015... 

 

Do you really want a list with boring V8 races?

[givemeabettercar]

Racing in the V6 is way better, and the costs will come down with time.

There are a good number of engine related retirements and it is way better for racing than the perfect reliability we had in 2013. If it wasn't for van der Garde going crazy, Montreal of all places would have everyone classified at the end. Now, the retirements mean small teams like Marussia can get a good result.

Edited by givemeabettercar, 16 April 2015 - 18:06.

[Tourgott]

That chart has no correlation to the quality of the racing only the popularity of the sport in general, you may as well say the sport has been in decline since a german wasn't winning

 

1.) It disproves his statement that it has "just to do with putting F1 behind a paywall" which is not in Germany.

2.) Following your logic, China 2015 should have at least the viewership of 2013 since Vettel won in 2013 as well as in Malaysia 2015. That was not the case (another 100k down from last year).

[Tourgott]

Do you really want a list with boring V8 races?

 

Would that make it better for the boring V6 races we have? + awful sound? I don't think so.

[sterlingfan2000]

Maybe keep v6 but pls remove fuel limit and rev it up to 22.000

[loki]

I want the days when I was too busy playing Pokemon cards and high-tailing it away from girls with cooties back, but it ain't gonna happen, is it?

You mean like yesterday?...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

[garagetinkerer]

Racing in the V6 is way better, and the costs will come down with time.

There are a good number of engine related retirements and it is way better for racing than the perfect reliability we had in 2013. If it wasn't for van der Garde going crazy, Montreal of all places would have everyone classified at the end. Now, the retirements mean small teams like Marussia can get a good result.

I have said this repeatedly... since early 2000's when engine and associated costs were becoming an issue, the costs for the customer teams have only gone up. Try explaining it to anyone why that may be, and oh don't forget that sponsorship is pretty much hard to find these days. I don't think that engines will be sold at a cheaper rate to customer teams unless F1 subisdises the manufacturers or customers.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 16 April 2015 - 18:19.

[Skizo]

Maybe keep v6 but pls remove fuel limit and rev it up to 22.000

With turbo engine....no point,even if it's possible.Give them +2 engines per year(6)remove fuel flow limit and let them develop the engines,both ICE and ERS,a little more freedom and variation.I see no point in changing the engines again.Again billions out of the window,im sure this looks good for other possible new manufacturers....You spend years on developing an engine,run it 2-3 year and throw it out....

[garagetinkerer]

1.) It disproves his statement that it has "just to do with putting F1 behind a paywall" which is not in Germany.

2.) Following your logic, China 2015 should have at least the viewership of 2013 since Vettel won in 2013 as well as in Malaysia 2015. That was not the case (another 100k down from last year).

Problem is, you're using numbers and logic. 

[Jon83]

Be happy to see their return.  

 

Loved the sound of the V8, which won't be popular on here. Never heard a V10, sadly. 

[P123]

Ahem, you do see what is happening with the turbo engines aren't you? How can you be sure that Renault wouldn't come with an entire new steaming pile of poop? Afterall, before they got the V8's working to specification, they were quite short on horsepower.

To be fair to Renault I don't think they have ever indicated wanting a return to V8s.

Ecclestone is somewhat kidding himself if he think V8s will get people flooding through the turnstyles to help prop up his inflated race sanctioning fees. And kidding himself some more if he thinks they would be so much cheaper, sort of forgetting that the 'cheapness' of the V8s was down to them being heavily subsidised by the manufacturers he is about to chase away, and because they'd already been through their expensive initial development phase.

[JHSingo]

What's this obsession with 1000bhp?

 

It's a meaningless number that would more likely than not, not have any impact on the racing whatsoever.

 

It seems like F1 believes having noisy engines with 1000bhp will solve all the sports problems. News flash: it won't.

 

It's a sticking plaster solution to problems that run far deeper, and detracts from the issues that are far more important.

[P123]

That chart has no correlation to the quality of the racing only the popularity of the sport in general, you may as well say the sport has been in decline since a german wasn't winning

It shows it been in decline in popularity in one country for every year but 2 since 1999... through a range of rule changes and engine specs. How ditching V6s became the all important saviour for that market is anybody's guess.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Yawn!

[CaptnMark]

What's this obsession with 1000bhp?

 

It's a meaningless number that would more likely than not, not have any impact on the racing whatsoever.

 

Exactly. Unless they really banned traction control (which means multiple engine maps), this figure doesn't have much meaning.

[Fatgadget]

That's what he tried.

Btw. to be fair, Bernie is not the only one who says that returning to V8 is the only way F1 could survive.

 

http://www.motorspor...a-15041413.html

..And Failed...Why? ..Either way,Its a bit late now turning back the tide of time. Its not gonna happen and rightly so.Fire breathing  gas guzzling LOUD engines  are anachronistic full stop...Get used to these modern hybrid engines,it's the future.