295 replies to this topic

[Ferrari2183]

So? Do you really think he'd be happy finishing 3rd regularly? Big deal.

3 3rds, 1 2nd and 1 1st out of 5... 

[aramos]

3 3rds, 1 2nd and 1 1st out of 5... 

 

3rd and 4th in the championship. The same Fernando has achieved time and time again.

 

In fact he's done better, because he was 2nd in 3 out of his 5 Ferrari years. So if anything they're further back.

[Zava]

Fernando was talking about 2014. He said last year he was finishing one minute behind Mercedes and this year Ferrari finished 40 seconds at Barcelona so nothing have changed.

 

So he is implying nothing have changed between 2014 and 2015 at Ferrari. We all know it's false isn't it ?

that's good, it means Vettel is ~40 seconds faster on a race distance in barcelona than Alonso. fairplay to Fernando for admitting such stuff!

[SealTheDiffuser]

that's good, it means Vettel is ~40 seconds faster on a race distance in barcelona than Alonso. fairplay to Fernando for admitting such stuff!

 

what?

[taziosenna881]

Why does Alonso get the benefit of the doubt every time? Like here: This was a terrible lap especially the final sector. Just awful around the last corner as well. Not a peep from the media.

[Buttoneer]

I think everyone should steel themselves for the possibility that Alonso is going to be asked about leaving Ferrari again, probably a few times before the end of the season. Be brave, it will be over quickly, unless someone starts a thread.

The gap is not the same.

Explain what you're looking for with this discussion please. It's clear that in Barcelona 2015 his potential finishing position was further back than he achieved in 2014, so it can't be that - there's no rich seam of nuance and useful discussion there. Is it that the final 40+s gap from first Ferrari to the winner is not exactly the same in 2015 as it was in 2014, which from memory was about one and a half minutes? Is the point of the thread to simply make the statement that the gap was smaller, and therefore Alonso's move is a major mistake because he could be losing by less time?

If that's the case, then we can just agree that losing by less time than he lost last year might possibly be positive, if you want to look at it that way, and close the thread?

[Rinehart]

Love him or loathe him, Alonso has been crystal clear that he wants to win a 3rd title and he believes that the chance of achieving that is better with McLaren Honda than Ferrari before he retires.

 

Until the day arrives where a Ferrari driver wins a WDC again before Fernando does, you can't say he was wrong. What it looks to you like might happen in the future is irrelevant. Only what actually happens is. 

 

All he is saying is, right now, irrespective of where McLaren are, as Ferrari are not consistently challenging Mercedes now, his gamble remains on track. 

[tmekt]

Love him or loathe him, Alonso has been crystal clear that he wants to win a 3rd title and he believes that the chance of achieving that is better with McLaren Honda than Ferrari before he retires.

When was the last time McLaren beat Ferrari?

[Eruobodo]

When was the last time McLaren beat Ferrari?

You do know a McLaren driver has won the WDC more recently than a Ferrari driver.

[YoungGun]

Love him or loathe him, Alonso has been crystal clear that he wants to win a 3rd title and he believes that the chance of achieving that is better with McLaren Honda than Ferrari before he retires.

 

Until the day arrives where a Ferrari driver wins a WDC again before Fernando does, you can't say he was wrong. What it looks to you like might happen in the future is irrelevant. Only what actually happens is. 

 

All he is saying is, right now, irrespective of where McLaren are, as Ferrari are not consistently challenging Mercedes now, his gamble remains on track. 

 

Then he should come out and say just that. As someone who has never paid any attention to Alonso before Vettel moved to Ferrari, it seems like Alonso continues to harbor resentment and has not moved on.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to win, as I think we can agree all drivers in F1 want just that.

[Rinehart]

When was the last time McLaren beat Ferrari?

The past is NOT relevant. 

 

(McLaren 2008, Ferrari 2007 btw).

[as65p]

Then he should come out and say just that. As someone who has never paid any attention to Alonso before Vettel moved to Ferrari, it seems like Alonso continues to harbor resentment and has not moved on.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to win, as I think we can agree all drivers in F1 want just that.

 

It seems you have to try really hard to be annoyed by Alonso, but at least it appears to work.

 

Really, you only "care" for Alonso because Vettel took his place, and now you get excited because that guy you never cared for doesn't praise Vettels new team (he doesn't even say a thing about Vettel himself) to the heavens? Wow.

[Rinehart]

Then he should come out and say just that. 

He has. 

Listen, although I think Alonso can be a bit of a prize muppet sometimes, he's not done anything that you or I  or anyone else have probably done in our careers, which is to make a choice that we think might pay out better or quicker in terms of our desired goal be it happiness or income or status or whatever. It is then human nature to reflect positively on that choice against where you "would have been". 

The only difference is that Alonso is asked to publically comment on this more often than we brush our teeth and then his answers are poked at and twisted. 

We all know the underlying tone of most of the questions in the first place are "its not looking good is it Fernando, mwahahaha". I'm sure most of us would be seriously irked by that...

[YoungGun]

It seems you have to try really hard to be annoyed by Alonso, but at least it appears to work.

 

Really, you only "care" for Alonso because Vettel took his place, and now you get excited because that guy you never cared for doesn't praise Vettels new team (he doesn't even say a thing about Vettel himself) to the heavens? Wow.

 

Sorry, reread my post ... I said nothing of the sort, but feel free to interpret my opinion to suit you agenda. You'll find as you have followed my posts, I give credit where credit is due.

Edited by SophieB, 13 May 2015 - 11:31.

[sennafan24]

Currently, Alonso can't win no matter what he says to the media.

 

If he acknowledged that Ferrari were surging and the better prospect, some would perceive it as reflecting badly on his current team. In the past, Alonso has a lot of criticism on forums for being critical of his current team (I.E Renault in 2006 and Ferrari in 2013). This included paying compliments to other teams (I.E Red Bull-2013). Even if Alonso dodged questions to the media and replied "no comment", some would perceive it as a sign of strain or rudeness.

 

It's a bit of a non-story. 

Edited by sennafan24, 13 May 2015 - 11:01.

[tmekt]

The past is NOT relevant. 

 

(McLaren 2008, Ferrari 2007 btw).

It seems to matter when we are talking about Ferrari

 

If we're talking about the likelihood of which team is more likely to win the championship, I just don't see it with McLaren. They're not exactly known to be able to develop their way out of troubles in the recent years (2013, 2014) and in addition to that have a great record of finishing second or lower (which Alonso wasn't looking for, as I've understood?). Last time they won was almost a decade ago and haven't really even come close after that. 

 

Well, at least they have Honda now, known for its title-winning cars in 2006-2008.

Edited by tmekt, 13 May 2015 - 11:03.

[Eruobodo]

It seems to matter when we are talking about Ferrari

 

If we're talking about the likelihood of which team is more likely to win the championship, I just don't see it with McLaren. They're not exactly known to be able to develop their way out of troubles in the recent years (2013, 2014) and in addition to that have a great record of finishing second or lower (which Alonso wasn't looking for, as I've understood?). Last time they won was almost a decade ago and haven't really even come close after that. 

 

Well, at least they have Honda now, known for its title-winning cars in 2006-2008.

Everything you have said applies even more to Ferrari. The last time they won a WDC was 2007 and even that was handed to them on a platter, at least McLaren have bragging rights on that.

[Brazzers]

I'll throw my two cents.

 

It's not uncommon to have many Alonso threads. Mostly expressing some form of dissatisfaction or hate whether it's direct and indirect.Alonso got soaked and tired of losing. Probably became pissed and couldn't take losing and walked off to McLaren after 5 years of failure. 

 

 

End of the day it's okay to lose, as long you aren't comfortable with it something I feel Alonso thinks when it 'hasn't changed'. Ferrari only really made changes when LDM, which was too late for Alonso when it should have happened 2-3 years earlier. 

[tmekt]

Everything you have said applies even more to Ferrari. The last time they won a WDC was 2007 and even that was handed to them on a platter, at least McLaren have bragging rights on that.

It applies less to Ferrari, they've actually come close to win since then (2010, 2012) and, with a few exceptions, finished ahead of McLaren every season after 2008. The gap is definitely the same, so to speak.

 

If Alonso wanted to avoid what went wrong with Ferrari, I don't think going to a team that's actually had the same issues but worse is going to help. That is, of course, if you think past can be used to predict the future, but if you don't, then Ferrari's past matters neither.

Edited by tmekt, 13 May 2015 - 11:29.

[Rinehart]

It seems to matter when we are talking about Ferrari

 

If we're talking about the likelihood of which team is more likely to win the championship, I just don't see it with McLaren. 

But this is precisely the point and why this premature criticism is going around in circles. You can't criticise Alonso for thinking the opposite to you - you don't know what is going to happen and neither does he. There will be ample time for you to crow if a Ferrari driver wins a title before he does. Until that happens, what it looks like might happen to you, is completely irrelevant. 

[krea]

You do know a McLaren driver has won the WDC more recently than a Ferrari driver.

Hamilton the year after Ferrari if I'm not wtong. Both titles aren't that recently. Blame Red Bull for that.

[krea]

But this is precisely the point and why this premature criticism is going around in circles. You can't criticise Alonso for thinking the opposite to you - you don't know what is going to happen and neither does he. There will be ample time for you to crow if a Ferrari driver wins a title before he does. Until that happens, what it looks like might happen to you, is completely irrelevant.

The same way one could argue that Alonso's black and white way of measuring success is completely meaningless.

Right now he is in a worse position and the future doesn't look better because of the lack of new game changing rules in the next years

Edited by krea, 13 May 2015 - 11:42.

[Rinehart]

The same way one could argue that Alonso's black and white way of measuring success is completely meaningless.

Right now he is in a worse position and the future doesn't look better because of the lack of new game changing rules in the next years

Round we go again. He's not said he's based his move on relative competitiveness on 13th May 2015, and what you think will happen in the future is irrelevant. 

[krea]

Round we go again. He's not said he's based his move on relative competitiveness on 13th May 2015, and what you think will happen in the future is irrelevant.

It's absolutely relevant how I rate Alonso's dicision. The team was hoping that Honda would use the extra time they had compared to the other engine suppliers for making a top tier engine. Sadly, with all the new frozen spec regulations you are stuck with it for the next seasons.

[tmekt]

But this is precisely the point and why this premature criticism is going around in circles. You can't criticise Alonso for thinking the opposite to you - you don't know what is going to happen and neither does he. There will be ample time for you to crow if a Ferrari driver wins a title before he does. Until that happens, what it looks like might happen to you, is completely irrelevant. 

I'm just looking at it and don't see the logic - especially as it means not fighting for podiums for a couple of years at least (and I know what he's said about finishing second, I just don't completely buy that).

 

I don't claim to be in possession of a crystal ball but just because I don't know for sure what's going to happen, doesn't mean I can't discuss and try to guess it along the way. The forum would be an awfully boring place without that. 

Edited by tmekt, 13 May 2015 - 12:00.

[Rinehart]

It's absolutely relevant how I rate Alonso's dicision. 

Can I just refer you to my other posts please. I'm defending that Alonso, based on his specific reason given, is NOT wrong yet (best chance to win another WDC). 

I'm not remotely interested in why Krea thinks its a wrong decision based on critera that Alonso didn't base the actual decision on, sorry. 

[Rinehart]

I'm just looking at it and don't see the logic - especially as it means not fighting for podiums for a couple of years at least (and I know what he's said about finishing second, I just don't completely buy that).

 

I don't claim to be in possession of a crystal ball but just because I don't know for sure what's going to happen, doesn't mean I can't discuss and try to guess it along the way. The forum would be an awfully boring place without that. 

Of course you have every right to say you THINK Alonso is wrong, so long as it's on the basis of the criteria that he made the decision (best place to win a WDC). But some of you are definitely bringing in different reasons why you think he is wrong, such as best place to score podiums in 2015 - but Alonso didn't make the decision based on which team he would most likely score podiums with in 2015, so I don't see the relevance of it and it's certainly unfair to judge him on it.

 

If you don't believe his reasons are genuine, well, that's another conversation entirely! 

[krea]

Can I just refer you to my other posts please. I'm defending that Alonso, based on his specific reason given, is NOT wrong yet (best chance to win another WDC). 
I'm not remotely interested in why Krea thinks its a wrong decision based on critera that Alonso didn't base the actual decision on, sorry.

No need to be ********.

Even if you just look at Alonso's goal that only winning the title counts then he is still at the wrong end. And his move was a failure - nothing changed indeed.

[aditya-now]

And yet Alonso himself seems to think there was no considerable progress despite your calculated 2 seconds improvement. I think you should convince him first that he would do so much better than Vettel.

 

Obviously you still did not understand that Fernando chose to take the scenic detour, because he enjoys it more than standing in the Maranello traffic jam for more than five years. Whether the scenic detour will bring him to his goal we shall see, but for now he still enjoys it more than the unfulfilled dreams of Maranello.

 

It is up to him what he choses for his career, no need for me to convince him of anything.

 

As a Ferrari fan since the 1970s I am keenly looking at the Scuderia's progress - while they have caught up car wise in 2015, they have lost terrain on the driver side. So they still will have a hard time getting ahead of Mercedes.

 

The chances,if Ferrari will make it, and the chances, if McLaren-Honda will make it are hard to calculate. But the outcome of that question will be part of whether Fernando was right or wrong. The other part: is Fernando happy where he is now? If he is, there is no need for further discussion because that's all that is important right now, when neither Ferrari nor McLaren-Honda are ahead of Mercedes.

[extremeday]

Nothing has changed with Alonso as well, he still talks too much and tried to create a personality cult around him ... you do the talk, but can you do the walk Fernando ? He is a very good driver but he is beginning to go past his prime, his star will slowly start to vanish and if he continues with this line of arguments he will soon start to become ridiculous and a subject of laughter.
 
He should mind his own business now, he made his choice and he should focus on winning with McLaren now.

  

Alonso talks too much and tried to create a personality cult around him? Then it worked. I am going to quote one of my posts here.

I wasn´t missing the weekly Alonso bashing-defending thread, but here it is. There must be a powerful reason why this man words or some other people words about him deserve a thread week in, week out. 
 

 
Then you should tell the journalists to stop asking him about Ferrari, especially the Italian journalists, who seem to be really interested in Alonso character and feelings. In addition you should ask some people surrounding Ferrari to stop talking about him. Then please tell the journalists to stop talking about his relationship with his current team. Some Italian journalist already informed that the relationship is totally broken.
 
Alonso doesn´t have to think what some people want him to think, the man is totally right to have his own opinion and express it when he is asked.  Does anybody think that Alonso is disrespectful towards Ferrari because he answers a question and speaks his mind? I think that the press in general and particularly the Italian press are quite disrespectful towards McLaren and Honda. It seems they are terribly interested in Alonso to say that he regrets his decision, his current car is **** and is terribly unhappy in his current team.

 

 

No need to be ********.
Even if you just look at Alonso's goal that only winning the title counts then he is still at the wrong end. And his move was a failure - nothing changed indeed.

If Alonso goal is that only winning count, then it is obvious that right now,his move wasn't a failure. The gap is totally irrelevant when only winning count.

[ViMaMo]

Alonso or his detractors ?   

 

 

[Rinehart]

No need to be ********.

Even if you just look at Alonso's goal that only winning the title counts then he is still at the wrong end. And his move was a failure - nothing changed indeed.

I've been polite and clear with a pov, which is essentially a statement of fact against the wave of opinions dressed as one. 

Your response is to claim I'm upset and repeat your irrelevance again. 

 

Btw, I've been called an Alonso hater in the JBvFA thread (I'm a JB fan). So, why would I be defending Alonso for any reason other than common sense. 

Edited by Rinehart, 13 May 2015 - 13:04.

[Ferrari2183]

I've been polite and clear with a pov, which is essentially a statement of fact against the wave of opinions dressed as one. 

Your response is to claim I'm upset and repeat your irrelevance again. 

 

Btw, I've been called an Alonso hater in the JBvFA thread (I'm a JB fan). So, why would I be defending Alonso for any reason other than common sense. 

Because the thread has descended to what is basically a Ferrari vs McLaren thread and you, I and many others feel obliged to defend the teams honour.    

[Newbrray]

Because the thread has descended to what is basically a Ferrari vs McLaren thread and you, I and many others feel obliged to defend the teams honour.    

 

shhh don't say that out loud,the powers that be are about and am quite enjoying the show right now

Edited by Newbrray, 13 May 2015 - 13:25.

[Rinehart]

Because the thread has descended to what is basically a Ferrari vs McLaren thread and you, I and many others feel obliged to defend the teams honour.    

I'm not a McLaren fan either, it's just preferable it's fast if JB is driving it! 

 

My pov is genuine and straightforward. I believe that Alonso is more interested in another WDC than anything else - that makes sense at this point of his career. The undisputable fact is that until a Ferrari driver wins a WDC before he does elsewhere, his gamble to join McLaren is not a wrong one, even if you, I or anyone else thinks it will ultimately transpire to be wrong. 

[RubalSher]

I'm not a McLaren fan either, it's just preferable it's fast if JB is driving it! 

 

My pov is genuine and straightforward. I believe that Alonso is more interested in another WDC than anything else - that makes sense at this point of his career. The undisputable fact is that until a Ferrari driver wins a WDC before he does elsewhere, his gamble to join McLaren is not a wrong one, even if you, I or anyone else thinks it will ultimately transpire to be wrong. 

 

He has always been, just like 19 other drivers on the grid. You dont hear the other 17 non Merc drivers moaning it doesnt matter which car they drive for or trying to diss Ferrari.

[SophieB]

This thread and some of its spiritual predecessors are quite something. And I think only the following happening will stop them happening, so I suggest people just read it whenever the need arises and pretend it's real to give comfort:

 

'Hi, is that Sky News? Yeah, Alonso here. Just calling up to say I'm really sorry I left Ferrari - who are brilliant and always will be -  in order to go to McLaren - who suck and always will do. What a mighty dickhead I am! Just thought you might like to let people know. Also? Kimi is miles better than me and I only always beat him because I sabotaged the car, like I did with Massa. It meant I couldn't win either but it was worth it to me because I'm a petty little man with a stupid beard who no-one likes. 

 

Oh, before I go - I knew about Crashgate all along. Then I grassed on everyone and got away scot free!  Well, bye.'

 

OR we can debate the opening post some more. But keep it focussed, folks.

[ConsiderAndGo]

[Cesc]

When was the last time McLaren beat Ferrari?

Well, one have to think why Ferrari beat McLaren.

McLaren had better car in 2011, 2012 and second half of 2014...similar car in 2010.

How many times the second Ferrari driver beat a McLaren during recent years? From 2010 to 2014, the second Ferrari driver has got 8 podiums. It does not sound a  strong record to me to assume the Ferrari was better than McLaren those years...

[Jvr]

I find it quite interesting that Alonso feels the need to make this kind of comments rather frequently. For sure, he is been asked all the time about the move but there are reasons for asking that question repeatedly: Ferrari has made significant improvement and dismissing it by a single race result yielding still a podium and concluding that "nothing has changed" is actually an example of provoking the question to be asked again and again. Furthermore when answering those questions he also seem to have a need to bang his own drum in excess of any other driver currently on the grid. For some reason this song comes on my mind: "Oh Lord it's hard to be humble, when you are perfect in every way..."

 

Perhaps we are witnessing in the media some of the reasons why he was dismissed from Ferrari?

Edited by Jvr, 13 May 2015 - 14:06.

[krea]

  


 If Alonso goal is that only winning count, then it is obvious that right now,his move wasn't a failure. The gap is totally irrelevant when only winning count.

 

Yes, and he isn't winning with McLaren, so the move was a failure. Can't be helped.

 

 

I've been polite and clear with a pov, which is essentially a statement of fact against the wave of opinions dressed as one. 

Your response is to claim I'm upset and repeat your irrelevance again. 

 

Btw, I've been called an Alonso hater in the JBvFA thread (I'm a JB fan). So, why would I be defending Alonso for any reason other than common sense. 

 

Your signature works quite well here. Alonso acts in such a childish way that he forget to do his homework.

Edited by krea, 13 May 2015 - 13:59.

[AustinF1]

The gap is not the same.
 

Wow.

 

Like I said earlier, I must have missed the part where Alonso said "The gap is the same". Maybe you could find that quote and post it for me. Thanks in advance.

Edited by AustinF1, 13 May 2015 - 13:59.

[kevinracefan]

sheese a whiz...

42 quadrillion cyberbytes to explain that as far as Fred is concerned nothing is dramatically different, while as far as Ferrari is concerned, they have made up some gap, yet more is needed...

the rest is just you guys trying to make mountains out of specs of dust, gathering your data from inflections of speech.

#awesomeentertainment

[AustinF1]

The gap is the same if you analize it in a binary way, you win or you don't.

Yep. The gap from 1 to 2 is still 1. Same as it always was. Like I said before, I look forward to seeing the trophy Arrivabene gives to the team for reducing the gap.

[Ferrari2183]

Well, one have to think why Ferrari beat McLaren.

McLaren had better car in 2011, 2012 and second half of 2014...similar car in 2010.

How many times the second Ferrari driver beat a McLaren during recent years? From 2010 to 2014, the second Ferrari driver has got 8 podiums. It does not sound a  strong record to me to assume the Ferrari was better than McLaren those years...

Ok, let's fix that. The car was fine, Massa was rubbish.

[SophieB]

That'll do, thread - that'll do.