3969 replies to this topic

[Gilles4Ever]

Part I

Part II

Part III

 

Discussion of the McLaren-Honda MP4-30 continues . . . 

 

[Rocket73]

[Maustinsj]

Darn, I missed both ends!

[AustinF1]

 

 

MP4-30 will look great in next 3 races with SuperSoft but if McLaren add some red on the RW main plane it will be even better. That red flow-vis looked fantastic on the RW. Here another high-res.

Yep. That's what I've been saying since the first time I saw it with the red flow-vis on the lower element. Looks fantastic. It just completes the whole look.

[kosmos]

This topics run faster than the car

[realracer200]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

[Clatter]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

I think it's more to do with the fact that we have a top team and engine manufacturer on the back foot and we want to see how quickly they can progress from the back to the front of the grid under a set of rules that make it very difficult to fix PU issues. As to the technical side of things, well we really don't have that much information on what is really happening under the bonnet.

[03011969]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

I think it's primarily the juxtaposition of the expectation v the current reality.  If Mclaren Honda were running, say, 3rd or 4th in their first year I believe the thread would be smaller.

 

But...current reality is not as important as long term reality, and in the long term McLaren will be front runners once again.

[engineblock1]

This topics run faster than the car

 

Due to good software optimization by the forum team

[argiriano]

This topics run faster than the car

And have the fan-favorite white and red livery with a predatory graphite elements! 

 

Jenson yesterday (from f1.f-e-n)

[Christophe77]

I like the red on the rear wing

[Maustinsj]

Changes in the rear? No bumps at the rear of the sidepods during the test.

 

This one is from Sunday:

 

 

This one is from Tuesday of the test:

 

 

A different angle:

 

[Rinehart]

Is it not possible to quote posts from Part 3 into part 4 of this thread?

 

The thing I wanted to pick up on from the last page was the quote "easier to make a fast car reliable".

 

Personally I think it's a bit of a cliche' and I've certainly heard the exact opposite pronounced when it's suited the circumstances facing a particular team... I think surely BOTH aspects are difficult and more to the point, intrinsically linked. 

 

Insofar as MH are concerned, sure, chasing performance is the objective that everyone is excited about, but as sure as hens lay eggs you need a certain level of reliability in order to actually carry out the lappery during which the development is conducted - leading towards that performance improvement.  

 

So, looking at the Spanish GP weekend as a whole and the 2 test days, it certainly looks like a relibilty corner has been turned - that can only be a good thing as far as chasing the inherantly linked performance is concerned. 

 

I therefore declare the last 5 days to have been good!  

[AustinF1]

Is it not possible to quote posts from Part 3 into part 4 of this thread?

 

The thing I wanted to pick up on from the last page was the quote "easier to make a fast car reliable".

 

Personally I think it's a bit of a cliche' and I've certainly heard the exact opposite pronounced when it's suited the circumstances facing a particular team... I think surely BOTH aspects are difficult and more to the point, intrinsically linked. 

 

Insofar as MH are concerned, sure, chasing performance is the objective that everyone is excited about, but as sure as hens lay eggs you need a certain level of reliability in order to actually carry out the lappery during which the development is conducted - leading towards that performance improvement.  

 

So, looking at the Spanish GP weekend as a whole and the 2 test days, it certainly looks like a relibilty corner has been turned - that can only be a good thing as far as chasing the inherantly linked performance is concerned. 

 

I therefore declare the last 5 days to have been good!  

Yep. That's what I was saying in part 3. I think it's no coincidence that the Merc turned up at 2014 testing ready to turn massive #s of laps and then ended up being the quickest car & most powerful, driveable PU. Like you say, it's all tied together.

Edited by AustinF1, 14 May 2015 - 11:39.

[AustinF1]

I have to say I really love this one...posted by Lemans in part 3...

 

[argiriano]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

Because McLaren fans are more sensitive than Jenson`s throttle for the scariest 30 laps of his life. 

[Rinehart]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

I think to witness such a pronounced bottom to (potentially) top level of performance development journey is a relatively unique event in F1 and utterly fascinating to witness. 

[smr]

I think to witness such a pronounced bottom to (potentially) top level of performance development journey is a relatively unique event in F1 and utterly fascinating to witness. 

I'm mainly interested as I'm a massive Jenson fan, I named my first son Jenson which explains my fanboyism

 

But also as Rineheart said above...fascinating to see the journey McLaren-Honda are on now.

[Maustinsj]

I named my daughter Fernando.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding 

[RedBaron]

I like the red on the rear wing

 

Oh yeh, accidental improvement. Really like that.

[Alonsofan007]

it is interesting to analyse why is this topic so popular (compared to other topics about cars).
part of it is surely the return of the iconic McLaren-Honda partnership so famous from Senna-Prost era and also the presence of probably the most carismatic among the current drivers, Alonso. but maybe part of is also that Honda decided to take a very different route with the engine compared to the other 3. it shows that people want see different technical solutions on the engine side competing in Formula 1, something that was missing a bit during the latest V8 era.

i'd say the topic is growing probably coz we are discussing why the topic is so popular

[Alonsofan007]

can someone explain what this means ? i have no clue

[bogi]

[AustinF1]

Yeah I don;t get it either. Not a clue.

[Rinehart]

can someone explain what this means ? i have no clue

Some sort of convoluted reference to scary McLarens and Fernando's testing shunt?

[PAGATRON]

can someone explain what this means ? i have no clue

It's means Jenson should lay off the coffee by the looks of it.

[SwedeForceOne]

A cute mockery of Fernandos ability following his testcrash and recent brakefailure in the spanish GB, implying that he'd be easily substitutable by a crash test dummy? Lol

[Alonsofan007]

A cute mockery of Fernandos ability following his testcrash and recent brakefailure in the spanish GB, implying that he'd be easily substitutable by a crash test dummy? Lol

lol ... funny

[kosmos]

Not 100% sure if this was already posted, at least for me is new.

 

“We don’t have the complete plan to use the tokens, which areas and when,” Arai said.

“We already prepared or confirmed which areas are the most effective. I know we are making the plan to apply race-by-race how many tokens we spend, that’s the plan we are making right now.”

Asked specifically where he feels Honda needs to develop using its tokens, Arai replied: “One is combustion, and the MGU-K and MGU-H because energy is a very important part. Combustion and energy recovery systems are very important.

“Maybe change the combustion concept, or the turbocharger, or the camshaft, those kind of parts. We are now confirming which parts are most effective. We should try to change the combustion concept because maybe the other power-unit suppliers always think about more good combustion characteristics.

“Every day, on the RnD side they are already thinking about it, calculating or testing a new combustion concept to get more horsepower to immediately apply. Maybe that’s the time to use the tokens.”

 

http://en.f1i.com/ne...evelopment.html

 

Edited by kosmos, 14 May 2015 - 15:19.

[SophieB]

Why is the robot so angry?

[frewin90]

on to the 4th thread now, wow lol!

 

as for that Alonso/Button/crash dummy sketch, I've no idea what it's actually referring to?! something along the lines of Alonso being a crash test dummy himself...? if so, it didn't even make me smile, never mind laugh lol

 

did anyone see the one of Alonso in bed next to the Honda engine? that one did make me laugh, haha

 

Not 100% sure if this was already posted, at least for me is new.

 

uh oh... that worries me, if I must be honest. using tokens for the combustion chamber, fine, this can always be optimised depending upon which fuels you use, to suit certain engine mapping (air/fuel ratios) etc...

 

however - using it for components like the MGU-K, MGU-H, turbocharger... oh dear! whether he was saying that's where they'll use them or just giving examples of where they can be used i don't know, but that scares me very much nonetheless! these are fundamentals that need to have been right from the start - to me, it seems a 'waste' using tokens on areas like this since they should've been right already, and also means that other areas cannot be optimised?! other manufacturers (forget Renault, they're terrible) like Ferrari and Mercedes will be using their tokens on other bits, where Honda then can't as they've used them for fundamentals!?

 

anyone know what Merc/Ferrari/Renault spent their tokens on between 2014/2015 season? is it normal to want to redesign the vital ERS/turbocharger elements?! also, I saw a chart before of what areas can be changed, how much tokens it costs etc... where can I find this?!

 

I'm not sure if people are following my thoughts here, but I hope I make sense?!

 

still, as always, I remain positive    

Edited by frewin90, 14 May 2015 - 15:37.

[AustinF1]

Not sure how the combustion chamber is less fundamental than the peripheral ERS systems. My concern after reading that was the opposite --- that they'd have to use tokens for combustion. 

Edited by AustinF1, 14 May 2015 - 15:43.

[NoSanityClause]

can someone explain what this means ? i have no clue

Oh, wait, I get it!! HAR HAR HAR!!!

 

 

No, wait...I don't.

[McLobby]

Now I am worried again...
 

 

 “One is combustion, and the MGU-K and MGU-H because energy is a very important part. Combustion and energy recovery systems are very important. “Maybe change the combustion concept, or the turbocharger, or the camshaft, those kind of parts.''

 

 

Are the tokens enough? How many tokens all these things need?

[Alonsofan007]

i read other day renault issues are mainly coz of combustion chamber, i think you are underestimating the challenge, first of all comparing Honda to others is not right, in fact all PU manufacturers have their own issue/challenges.

[McLobby]

Maybe what they are doing now is calculating which part will bring the best performance, because obviously 9 tokens aren't enough if all the above need to be upgraded.

 

If the whole PU is 61 tokens, 9 of the them is a relatively small upgrade.

[CPR]

Not 100% sure if this was already posted, at least for me is new.

 
Thanks! I've been wanting to see something like this for a while.
 
We are now confirming which parts are most effective" - sounds like they have prototypes of various developments and evaluating how they perform in internal testing to see which combination of token use will deliver the biggest gains. The ones that don't make the cut will probably be developed further and evaluated for token upgrades to use over winter, as well as bigger potential upgrades that would take to long to develop to consider for this year.
 

edit Seems to be report from same event:

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns30818.html
 

F1 chief Yasuhisa Arai would not say exactly when Honda will begin to use the tokens, but it will not be done at the very end of the season.

"That would not make sense," he told Spain's Marca. "We will (use them) when we know that we will gain (from them), and it will be soon, after the tests."

Also:

And Honda is not ruling out using all 9 tokens in one hit.

"We're studying it," said Arai, "but we have not decided."

Edited by CPR, 14 May 2015 - 16:15.

[muramasa]

Not 100% sure if this was already posted, at least for me is new.

http://en.f1i.com/ne...evelopment.html

 

That's interesting. Arai said session ended very quick while they were checking many things in FPs in Spain, stories from Jorda and Nando himself that Honda engineers are slow checking same things twice or three times, and now this article in which Arai is quoted as saying "We are now confirming which parts are most effective.".

I think it was TC3000 and MP430 who was wondering if Honda is evaluating which area to use tokens for by assessing things and gathering data, I tend to agree with that.

 

however - using it for components like the MGU-K, MGU-H, turbocharger... oh dear! whether he was saying that's where they'll use them or just giving examples of where they can be used i don't know, but that scares me very much nonetheless! these are fundamentals that need to have been right from the start - to me, it seems a 'waste' using tokens on areas like this since they should've been right already, and also means that other areas cannot be optimised?! other manufacturers (forget Renault, they're terrible) like Ferrari and Mercedes will be using their tokens on other bits, where Honda then can't as they've used them for fundamentals!?

To me there is no reason to worry at all at least for now. Combustion, MGUs and TC, all these are something that directly leads to performance gain, so why not? As for ICE maybe they found better ideas as they race and learn things from the experience and data. MGU-K, H, TC are of course fundamental but that's the most difficult part to get it right in the current PU and exactly what they've been suffering from a lot. MGU-K has always been in trouble since testing, and having serious trouble in MGU-H/TC as well (Mag engine at OZ, JB's at Malaysia. They made reliability update to MGU-H and TC two times already). If anything, them being able to focus on fundamental parts, rather than peripherals like ancilalies, covers, inlets, electronics, batteries, etc, can be interpreted as positive thing. We can only enjoy guessing like this tho, as we wont know sth like that in details for many years.

[realracer200]

it would be interesting to know how much were they down on power in the last race compared to say Mercedes or Ferrari. earlier in the season numbers like 80hp or 100hp were floating around but after the Barcelona race it is not clear to me whether they managed to close that gap somewhat or not.

[Karmen]

can someone explain what this means ? i have no clue

 

That robot is used in crash tests in the road car industry. Jenson said driving the MP4/30 was "scary" so the solution he comes up with is to use that robot instead of them having to actually drive the car. At least that's what I understand anyway

[CPR]

If anything, them being able to focus on fundamental parts, rather than peripherals like ancilalies, covers, inlets, electronics, batteries, etc, can be interpreted as positive thing.

 

I agree - bigger gains.

 

 

it would be interesting to know how much were they down on power in the last race compared to say Mercedes or Ferrari. earlier in the season numbers like 80hp or 100hp were floating around but after the Barcelona race it is not clear to me whether they managed to close that gap somewhat or not.

 

I'd say that the Renault powered teams have better aero than us currently - more downforce. But more downforce almost always has a cost in terms of top speeds, which is why we don't tend to see Mercedes on top through the speed trap. Compared to us the Renault powered cars have about the same speed through the speed trap which indicates to me that they have both more power and more downforce. Maybe they're a step ahead in power and two steps ahead in downforce and that combines to give about the same top speed.

[oetzi]

How many points make a step?

[Widefoot2]

That robot is used in crash tests in the road car industry. Jenson said driving the MP4/30 was "scary" so the solution he comes up with is to use that robot instead of them having to actually drive the car. At least that's what I understand anyway

 

And I think it's the brakes on the trash bin that work...

[Alonsofan007]

That robot is used in crash tests in the road car industry. Jenson said driving the MP4/30 was "scary" so the solution he comes up with is to use that robot instead of them having to actually drive the car. At least that's what I understand anyway

mmm that makes sense too  

[Alonsofan007]

And I think it's the brakes on the trash bin that work...

are they implying McLaren car is trash bin

[KnucklesAgain]

That robot is used in crash tests in the road car industry. Jenson said driving the MP4/30 was "scary" so the solution he comes up with is to use that robot instead of them having to actually drive the car. At least that's what I understand anyway

 

Hmm. Then why does the dummy (not a robot AFAICT) carry a "Fernando" label on his chest and a mustache in his face? 

[Tapz63]

Hmm. Then why does the dummy (not a robot AFAICT) carry a "Fernando" label on his chest and a mustache in his face?

Jenson built it and has "disguised" it as Fernando. The Wheelie bin is the new Mclaren he made and the brakes actually work on it... I think.

[Maustinsj]

It's so much funnier when it has to be explained by 5 different people!

[NoSanityClause]

I say it deserves its own thread.

 

"What does this mean? - Part I", as I expect the debate to go on for generations to come.

[KnucklesAgain]

Jenson built it and has "disguised" it as Fernando. The Wheelie bin is the new Mclaren he made and the brakes actually work on it... I think.

 

Could indeed be. Still not funny in any way though