87 replies to this topic

[Rainer Nyberg]

In 1963 an Australian Formula 1 engine was supposed to have raced. All I know about it, is that it was of V6 configuration.
There is no trace of it in any championship tables, so can anyone fill in with details? What happened to the project?

Does the engine have any connections with the Clisby company on this site http://www.clisby.com.au/ ?

[Marcor]

There's a two-page article, including a picture, about the Clisby project in "Grand Prix Cars 1945-65" by Mike Lawrence.

The other time I saw anything about Clisby was in "Sport Auto #49, February 1966". It was very, very short:
"The Clisby engine, built in Australia, was just a slavish copy of the V6 Ferrari and was then devoid of interest. To our knowledge it was never used."

[Marcor]

Does the engine have any connections with the Clisby company on this site http://www.clisby.com.au/ ?

.
I suppose as the same man, Harold Clisby was at the roof of the two projects !!!

[Don Capps]

SCG ran an article on it some time in 1963, I just saw it a few weeks ago.....

[Vitesse2]

The Clisby engine was intended to power the Ausper F1 car, but as the engine never appeared, nor did the car.

[Barry Lake]

In the early 1970s I was commissioned to write a story on this project and put in a lot of research, including through engineers who were involved.

Unfortunately, I did the story for a local editor, who apparently was on-selling it to a publication somewhere overseas. I was paid for the story but as far as I know it never appeared in print.

I had just one copy of the typed story and never saw it again, despite extensive chasing. I made carbon copies of everything I did ever after, but too late to save the Clisby story...

A couple of things I do remember:

The statement "a slavish copy of the Ferrari V6" is totally untrue. The Clisby design was finished long before the Ferrari V6 ever appeared or even was rumoured. That they were similar, and the Ferrari was so successful, only confirms that Clisby's engineers were on the right track.

From memory, Clisby had a prototype engine finished before the existence of the Ferrari 1.5 litre V6 became common knowledge.

The project failed not through poor design or development but because no one in Australia at that time had the required expertise for casting the necessary intricate aluminium components. Porosity of heads and blocks was an ongoing problem that took years to sort out. By the time they were on top of it, the Ferrari engine had appeared.

It was a very patriotic project, which precluded having the parts made overseas. It also meant they wished to run it in an Australian car, at that point the Ausper, which also did not survive.

All the ingredients were there, but the time and the finances to make it work were not.

The expertise gained did not go astray and there are direct links to a major alloy wheels manufacture and export industry in South Australia that thrives to this day.

The Clisby engine ran (raced?) in an Elfin car a few times in Australia but the project faded, from memory due to the unreliability created by the porous castings.

I seem to remember some sort of a link to the Elfin car that was tied in with Donald Campbell's Bluebird Land Speed Record runs in Australia in 1964, but will have to think about it for a while (or find the time to look it up) to remember what it was. Same car with a different engine? Same owner? It isn't coming back to me. Sorry.

Perhaps David McKinney knows more.

[Barry Lake]

I just remembered another important fact connected with the Clisby engine.

Some of the engineers involved with the Clisby and the sorting of the casting problems later were also largely responsible for components used in the Repco V8 engines that won the world drivers' championships in 1966 and 1967 for Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme.

So it was hardly a wasted effort.

[Vitesse2]

Barry, it looks like Mike Lawrence may have read your article, since you bring up all the salient points he does.

However, he doesn't seem to have your info re the later Elfin-Clisby, since he says only that it was entered for the 1965 Australian GP for Andy Brown (DNA)

[Catalina Park]

The February issue of AUSTRALIAN AUTOSPORTSMAN has a story on the engine written by Ray Simpson.
The main specifications are
Cylinders: 6 in V formation (120 degrees).
Bore: 73mm.
Stroke:58.8mm.
Capacity:1476cc.
Compression ratio: 8.5:1 at present; to be raised to10:1.
Maximum r.p.m.:10,000.
Maximum b.h.p.: 200 (estimated) on 10:1 compression.
Valves: Gear-driven by four overhead camshafts.
Ignition: Four coils and distributors; two plugs per cylinder.
Carburretion: Twin, triple choke, Clisby-made carburettors.
Oil capacity; 12 pints.
Dry weight: 260lb. (estimated).

[tombe]

Rainer,

if you'll let me have your e-mail adress, I'll mail you an article on the Clisby engine, scanned from 'Illustrerad Motor Sport' 2/63.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Thanks all for your help.
A shame about your artice, Barry.
Hopefully it can be recovered from somewhere.
I guess back-up copies are made more easily today!

But even today articles can be lost! And found!
I few years back I lost a file that I had worked on and put a great deal of effort on. I changed computer and somehow that file was never transfered, and I thought it was lost.

But I remembered a few months ago that I had made copies of my mail outbox. And I mad mailed it to a friend, and I was able to recover it from the outbox...

My mailbox is simple...

rainer@nyberg.com

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Lake


The statement "a slavish copy of the Ferrari V6" is totally untrue. The Clisby design was finished long before the Ferrari V6 ever appeared or even was rumoured. That they were similar, and the Ferrari was so successful, only confirms that Clisby's engineers were on the right track.

From memory, Clisby had a prototype engine finished before the existence of the Ferrari 1.5 litre V6 became common knowledge.

The project failed not through poor design or development but because no one in Australia at that time had the required expertise for casting the necessary intricate aluminium components. Porosity of heads and blocks was an ongoing problem that took years to sort out. By the time they were on top of it, the Ferrari engine had appeared.

I don't understand the chronology here Barry. I assume you're referring to the 120 degree Ferrari engine as the first Ferrari V6 1.5-litre appeared in 1956/57. however, the 120 degree Ferrari appeared at Monaco 1961, the first Grand Prix under the 1.5-litre formula. The Clisby was announced in late 1962. Are you saying that Clisby had a prototype running in early 1961? If so, the porosity problems would surely hve been apparant well before they announced it.

[Marcor]

I'm sorry to have used the words "Slavish copy".

It's not me but Sport-Auto which used and it was included in a dossier about all the engines of the 1500cc F1 era.

[Catalina Park]

The Australian Autosportsman story of 1963 says that
"In 1960 Clisby went overseas for a tour round European car manufacturers. He returned in October of that year after visiting all the important car and motor engine factories. As soon as he returned he decided that he would set to and manufacture a racing engine which would be capable of competing in Formula 1 events."
It then says that
"Ferrari was using a 60 degree V unit at the time Clisby started to turn out his unit. He decided to use a broader unit because it had the advantages of allowing a higher R.P.M. and a lower overall height. Also it was easier to ballance."
The story also said that Coventry Climax was pulling out of racing at the end of the year and that it was hoped this engine would take their place.

[Barry Lake]

I always have remembered that the Clisby was designed before the 1961 Ferrari V6 1.5 was made public.

There were stories published in 1962 with photographs of a completed engine that said Clisby's overseas research trip, after which he began to design the engine, was undertaken in 1960 (definitely not 1963).

The porosity problem, as I remember it, was an ongoing thing that they always thought they had cured but which persisted through many attempts to eradicate it.

Regarding the Elfin Clisby having run a few times, I am not sure that it actually raced. The engine problems were such that it didn't ever run for very long at a time.

[Catalina Park]

Sorry Barry I left out one small thing

In 1960 Clisby went overseas ........

If anyone wants a copy of the article let me know.

[Brian Lear]

The Clisby V6 was fitted to Elfin Mono #M6548 for Andy Brown.
It competed in three races
Mallala 19/4/65 - blew rear tyre on back straight and demolished
the rear suspension
Calder 23/5/65 - retired with water porosity problem
Mallala 14/6/65 - blew oil line in practice and did not race

An increase in Formula 1 regulations to 3 litres and being ineligible
for Australian Formula Two stopped further development.
The car was fitted with a Lotus Twin Cam and continued racing.
The engine is in the Sporting Car Club of South Australia clubrooms.

The Elfin that was involved with Donald Campbells Lake Eyre project
was FJ/Catalina #6313

[Roger Clark]

I can believe that Clisby decided that on the basic configuration of his engine before the 120 degree Ferrari was made public, but not that the design was complete, still less tthat Clisby had a prototype running by then. The 120 degree Ferrari was announced at Ferrari's press conference in February 1961. In December 1962, Motor Racing magazine published an article about the Clisby engine. It said that the basic design work on the engine toook nine months, presumably starting when Harold Clisby returned from his trip to Europe. It said that at the time of writing the first Clisby engine was 90% complete.

Incidentally the author of that article ws Ray simpson, who also wrote the Australian Autosportsman article quoted by Catalina Park. It apears that the two articles were similar but not identical.

One minor mystery. The Motor Racing article said that the Clisby engine used "special triple-choke Weber carburettors, later replaced by Clisby triple-choke." I always understood that Weber produced carburettors of this type specially for the 120 degree Ferrari engine, the 65 degree engine having used 3 twin-choke carburettors. It was said at the time that this showed the special relationship between Ferrari and Weber which had existed in since the 1920s. In contrast, the Coventry Climax FWMV had to use an obsolete design of Weber, until Lucas fuel injection became available in 1963.

But does thismean that Clisby had persuaded Weber either to desiign a special carburettor for his engine, or to release some of the Ferrai devices. The latter is possible, as by 1963, Ferrari had switched to bosch fuel injection and had no need of an exclusive supply.

[Barry Lake]

I was probably mistaken in suggesting that a prototype Clisby engine existed before the 1961 F1 Ferrari appeared. But I do remember that the emphasis of the people involved at the time (early 1970s when I did that story) was that the engine definitely was not a Ferrari copy and that the design was done before they knew of the 120 degree Ferrari.

How much Clisby was influenced by the earlier Ferrari V6 engines I don't know, but it is probable that he looked at all the engines that were around during his 1960 visit and selected the direction he thought best, based on what he saw.

But I wouldn't have thought he would have had detailed knowledge of the internal workings of the Ferrari engines, even assuming he was influenced by them. Remember I am writing this from very distant memories, I don't have time now to research it, but I would think that if you want to call this engine a straight copy of a Ferrari V6, then you might also have to call all four-cylinder 2ohc F1 engines copies of the 1913 Peugeot.

Motor racing history is littered with stories of expensive failures due to people trying radical new designs (engines and cars) that had too many problems to be sorted all at once. Looking at the best of what is around and trying to improve upon it has been a much more successful path.

In that sense, Clisby seemed to be heading in the right direction. He wouldn't have forseen the problems he eventually had with lack of casting quality. The effort probably was underfinanced as well, compared to other F1 engine makers.

Remember, too, that this project was undertaken at a time when all the British manufacturers (cars and engines) were "sitting on their hands" and giving Ferrari a head start on the 1.5 litre Formula.

It is not too difficult to imagine how Clisby might have thought there was an opportunity there. If he had been able to produce an engine close to Ferrari's in terms of performance and reliability (and weight) it isn't too difficult to see a ready market for it.

You would have to put it down as a "nice try", if a little too ambitious. On the other hand, the experience gained contributed to the success of the later Repco project so, from Australia's point of view it wasn't a wasted effort, even if it surely must have depleted Clisby's coffers considerably.

[Brian Lear]

The aforementioned Ray Simpson also wrote an article in "Modern Motor" of December 1962 on the Clisby V6.
It says Clisby designed a triple choke carburettor as Weber were unable to supply him due to Ferrari commitments.
The carburettors and all other components (except valves) were designed and made in the Clisby works

Brian Lear

[mmciau]

Originally posted by Brian Lear
The Clisby V6 was fitted to Elfin Mono #M6548 for Andy Brown.
It competed in three races
Mallala 19/4/65 - blew rear tyre on back straight and demolished
the rear suspension
Calder 23/5/65 - retired with water porosity problem
Mallala 14/6/65 - blew oil line in practice and did not race

An increase in Formula 1 regulations to 3 litres and being ineligible
for Australian Formula Two stopped further development.
The car was fitted with a Lotus Twin Cam and continued racing.
The engine is in the Sporting Car Club of South Australia clubrooms.

The Elfin that was involved with Donald Campbells Lake Eyre project
was FJ/Catalina #6313

I drove the Elfin Catalina Chassis 6313 during 1965. This Elfin came off the Lake Eyre in 1963 and was bought and used by Andrew Mustard in 1964 to set some Australian speed records at Weapons Reasearch Establishment Salisbury SA.

I drove it on occasions at Mallala during 1965 plus I also set some speed records in 1965 at WRE.

This car had a very interesting engine history in 1964 and 1965 with the fitting of Norman superchargers and the use of methanol during these speed runs. One one series of runs it had a life expectancy of some 20 seconds at full throttle but she lasted 9 minutes before one failure stooped proceedings for a while.

Anyone know where the car may be now?

Mike McInerney
Marion, South Australia

[macoran]

What an intriguing story.
I would be very interested in seeing some copy from magazines

[Brian Lear]

Originally posted by mmciau


I drove the Elfin Catalina Chassis 6313 during 1965. This Elfin came off the Lake Eyre in 1963 and was bought and used by Andrew Mustard in 1964 to set some Australian speed records at Weapons Reasearch Establishment Salisbury SA.


Anyone know where the car may be now?

Mike McInerney
Marion, South Australia

Mike

Last I heard Elfin Catalina #6313 was owned by Dean Rainsford in your home State of South Australia.

Regards
Brian Lear
Elfin Register.

[M bennett]

Of course a Clisby V6 sits on display in the foyer/reception area of the Sporting Car Club in South Australia, along with a plaque that details some of the technical details and history. Just next door is the superb motoring library. . . . . . . . . . . Mike Bennett

[macoran]

Ah!! thanks for the info

[JB Miltonian]

Looking in the index, I found two articles on the Clisby V-6 engine:

Road & Track of January 1963 has a three page article by Ray Simpson, with 7 pictures.

Sports Car Graphic of June 1963 has a four page article by Darrell Penhale, with 7 other pictures.

I can scan and send copies to anyone interested if you send me a PM with your email address.

[275 GTB-4]

South Australian Sporting Car Club

QUOTE

Gday Mick,

Thanks for passing on the thread. Yes the engine is on display in the foyer of the sporting car club. I am very privileged to say that I was present the last time the engine was run. This was at the club some three of four years back, Harold spoke to the club over two nights giving us an insight into his motorsport career and the building of this engine, on the second night the engine was fired up. What a wonderful experience! An awesome sound and he really gave it a decent revving. I think the club may have the interview on video, I will look into it.

One of my treasured motoring memories.

Cheers

UNQUOTE

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by M bennett
Of course a Clisby V6 sits on display in the foyer/reception area of the Sporting Car Club in South Australia, along with a plaque that details some of the technical details and history. Just next door is the superb motoring library. . . . . . . . . . . Mike Bennett

Mike, you mean the one and only CLISBY V6 ever produced , regards ,Peter Nightingale......

[Ray Bell]

When it comes to Harold Clisby and his engineering and advanced ideas, I think a good look at his hillclimb car from the early fifties would awaken many people...

I've never seen any more than a distant photo of it, but I can see what he was aiming at and it was in many ways ahead of its time. At least for the backwater that Australian racing was in those days.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
When it comes to Harold Clisby and his engineering and advanced ideas, I think a good look at his hillclimb car from the early fifties would awaken many people...

I've never seen any more than a distant photo of it, but I can see what he was aiming at and it was in many ways ahead of its time. At least for the backwater that Australian racing was in those days.

Ray , you are very right in what you say, Regards ,Peter N......

[David Shaw]

Originally posted by Brian Lear


Mike

Last I heard Elfin Catalina #6313 was owned by Dean Rainsford in your home State of South Australia.

Regards
Brian Lear
Elfin Register.

I note in the classifieds of RCN May 1967, that a D. Rainsford (in Melbourne) had an Elfin Catalina for sale.
Would this be the same one?

[Brian Lear]

Originally posted by David Shaw


I note in the classifieds of RCN May 1967, that a D. Rainsford (in Melbourne) had an Elfin Catalina for sale.
Would this be the same one?

David,

Yes it is the same car. It was sold in 1967 and in the ensuing 26 years passed through 9 more owners. Rainsford re-aquired it in 1993.

Regards
Brian Lear
Elfin Register

[zac510]

I've actually seen this engine at the SCC SA, back when I was a member and got a tour of the premises.
Didn't really understand the history of it at the time!

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Quote (In part) from Catalina Park

Cylinders: 6 in V formation (120 degrees).
Bore: 73mm. (2.8740”)
Stroke: 58.8mm. (2.3150”)
Capacity: 1476cc. (90.108 cubic in.)
Compression ratio: 8.5:1 at present; to be raised to10:1.
Maximum r.p.m.:10,000.
Maximum b.h.p.: 200 (estimated) on 10:1 compression.
Valves: Gear-driven by four overhead camshafts.
Ignition: Four coils and distributors; two plugs per cylinder.
Carburetion: Twin, triple choke, Clisby-made carburetors.
Oil capacity; 12 pints.
Dry weight: 260lb. (estimated).

Just yesterday I finished two sketches of the 120 degree V-6
using the firing order of the V-6 Buick and indeed it does
have very good Primary and Secondary balance using six
counterweights for the Primary and no added shafts for
the Secondary.

As to the bad runs of aluminum this isn’t unknown as this
was one of the biggest problems in using it when making
the old V-12s in the 1920s.

Using so many coils/distributors/sparkplugs it almost must have been a
low angle valve in a low Spherical Segment Combustion Chamber.
As there isn’t any mention of the valve angle I made this one using
the same B & S, compression ratio of 10 to 1, a flat top piston
and no allowances for the various cutouts this making the valve angle at
49.338 degrees.
It is unfortunate that they couldn’t prevent the bad runs of
Porosity as it appears they had good things going for them. Clisby must have
been an exceptional person to attempt such an endeavourer. V-6 engines,
(for example), were so few before 1921 that G.D. Angles book only lists 3
as opposed to some 115 V-8 engines plus 123 vertical six cylinders.

After doing a layout on the engine it has the same firing order as the much
later Buick V-6 at #1-6-5-3-4-2 with #1 left front #2 right front ,even
numbers right side and odd numbers left side.

The inclusion of two sparkplugs per cylinder seems to indicate the usage of a
two valve cylinder somewhat similar to the combustion chamber of the J-5
Wright engine. It would be very interesting to see a picture of the outside of
the top of the sparkplugs and to see if they were angled or if straight up on
the cylinder head. On my sketches I made them at the same angle as the
valves which caused me a lot of problems to make them look correct on the
top view sketch.
M.L. Anderson

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

A note on the passing of inventor Harold Clisby...
A friend of Mr. Harold Clisby named Glen recently told us that Harold had passed away February 12, 2005 at the age of 92. Mr. Clisby designed the original Clisby lathe which later was sold by Ron Sher under the Sherline name in Australia before we began making it in the USA in the early 1970's. The rigid design based on the use of extrusions was Mr. Clisby's concept. He was a very talented and versatile designer, having successfully designed and built items as diverse as a Formula I auto racing engine, air compressors, machine tools and even a line of women's clothing. There was little he saw in life that couldn't stand a little improving, and his creativity even included the building of his own home from the ground up from stone. A few years ago he developed a very small lathe that still bears the Clisby name. This machine is now produced and sold by his family, so the Clisby name will carry on in the world of small machine tools. We had the privilege of meeting Mr. Clisby and his son when they visited our factory in May of 1998. The photo at the left shows Mr. Clisby holding his small lathe. (Click on the photo to view a larger image.)

M.L. Anderson

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
I just remembered another important fact connected with the Clisby engine.

Some of the engineers involved with the Clisby and the sorting of the casting problems later were also largely responsible for components used in the Repco V8 engines that won the world drivers' championships in 1966 and 1967 for Jack Brabham and Denny Hulme.

So it was hardly a wasted effort.

Barry, the engineer you are taking about is a very good friend of mine and you could not find a better person to engineer out the problems you allude to on the casting problems , regards, Peter Nightingale

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Back to the casting problem . Just went over to the Wright Aircraft post and got this about the Hiospano-Suiza casting pronlem in about 1916.

Wright-Martin tackled the new engine program, now known as the Wright-Hispano, with enthusiasm but soon found that they did not possess the necessary manufacturing technology and the effort bogged down. At that time, it was practice among many European engine designers, for both airplanes and automobiles that "monobloc" construction be used; engines were designed with cylinder head and block in an integral casting. Cylinder heads were not detachable. This resulted in an intricate aluminum casting that required special manufacturing techniques to produce. Wright-Martin was unable to cast the Hisso engine block nor was any US foundry .

The engine program was strictly "build to print"; no design changes were permitted. Wright-Martin was forced to procure castings from French foundries, self-defeating since capacity in Europe was limited; an embarrassment to the US Government, and the cause of great concern to the French.

A consulting manufacturing organization was hired, the renowned Goethals Company, who took over the management of the Wright-Hispano engine program. They were experts in machine tool selection, processing, factory layout, etc. They solved a myriad of production problems associated with the Hisso engine, especially that of the casting . French foundries were visited, and a dedicated Wright-Martin foundry started from scratch in the US Slowly the casting technology was developed "in-house" until good castings were produced as a matter of routine.

M.L. Anderson

[TREV]

The elfin in which the Clisby V6 was installed was from memory a mono. I recall seeing an engineless mono some years ago cant recall who owned it (Barry Stilo ??) he claimed it was the car that had the clisby engine. At the time I saw it it was literally hanging from the rafters, white in colour with I think two narrow red stripes

[Ray Bell]

I think anyone with a decent knowledge of Elfins would know where the car is now...

I don't think those colours applied when Andy Brown had it.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by TREV
The elfin in which the Clisby V6 was installed was from memory a mono. I recall seeing an engineless mono some years ago cant recall who owned it (Barry Stilo ??) he claimed it was the car that had the clisby engine. At the time I saw it it was literally hanging from the rafters, white in colour with I think two narrow red stripes

Wasn't hanging in the rafters in the Canberra area was it Trev???

[TREV]

275,

No it was not in Canberra. Melbourne somewhere def not NSW,

[David Shaw]

According to my source, currently owned by Barry Stilo in Vic.

[cosworth bdg]

Ask Brian Lear , he will know who the owner of the ex Clisby V6 mounted Elfin Mono is................

[David Shaw]

Brian is my source Peter.

[275 GTB-4]

http://www.sportingcarclubsa.org.au/

[kaydee]

I've only recently discovered this Forum and noticed that someone was inquiring about the firing order of the Clisby V6 -
It is 1,4,3,6,2,5 as per the attached diagram -



The included angle of the two valves is 60 degrees - symmetrically 30 degrees either side of centre and the twin spark plugs are located vertical to the cylinder head face.

Hope this helps

[Ray Bell]

I'm sure Marion (undoubtedly it was him...) will be grateful, kaydee...

And welcome to the forum. Hope you also find the 'introduce yourself' thread a the top of the page.

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

Kaydee; I don't know how you got this so quickly by I am in the process of drawing a diagram of the Buick V6 which is the same layout. I have included the labeling of the firing order and the direction of turning of the crankshaft and so far it looks the same except for the numbering of the cylinders. After I make the sketch of the combustion chamber I will post it all. So far it looks as if the mistake he made was in the included angle of the valve layout. Along with the sparkplug angle with is a small mistake. But the valve angle means he must have been planning to use a domed piston to get a reasonable compression ratio.

I will try to include both the combustion chambers as I believe that at that time fuel was unrestricted and methanol alcohol was permitted. Possibly someone will help me on this one also.
Methanol would mean that a compression ratio could go as high as 15 to 1.

Yours, Marion Anderson

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by M bennett
Of course a Clisby V6 sits on display in the foyer/reception area of the Sporting Car Club in South Australia, along with a plaque that details some of the technical details and history. Just next door is the superb motoring library. . . . . . . . . . . Mike Bennett

The Clisby V6, now has a new home ,the Clisby family.................

[kaydee]

Hi Marion,

It was no problem to get the Clisby V6 firing order as I machined and built most of the engine - it was only a matter of digging through my files. I’m not sure how relevant the Clisby information is to the Buick V6 but the Clisby had a hemispherical combustion chamber, the compression ratio was 10.5 to 1 and the engine ran on 100/110 octane Avgas.

If you need more info let me know.

Rgds, kaydee