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You don't get it.

All that became because I said that the fastest laps are not the absolutely truth. And like I proved, I´m right.

Vettel was on the front and didn´t risked pushing, because he didn´t need. It´s logical and not too difficult to understand, a sign of maturity of the WC that became some years after Monza.

Vettel achieved the récord of points in Toro Rosso by so far. He did on 2008. Just 39 points, he achieved 35 for the team.

When he left TR the team achieved 8 points. And even with the new change of points in 2010... he still keeps the record.
(It´s normal Giorgio compared him with Senna not only qualyfing)

But we all know that Toro Rosso in 2008 was the fastest car and he needs a Newey car...

Very easy

Renault this year was 4th on WC. with 88 points (and Alonso did 3 podiums before winning)

Toro Rosso was 6th with 39 points !!! (best result before Monza was a 5th of Vettel after start on the grid the 18th!)

I mean YOU CAN´T COMPARE.

Toro Rosso didn't even launch that car until the 6th race up until then Vettel was too busy crashing into people, the chassis was designed by one Adrian Newey and had a Ferrari engine in it (which as Red Bull moaned so much about was more powerful than its Renault counterpart). Looking at the results Vettel was the only driver scoring points in the second half of the season consistently, Bourdais struggled to do the same. With Alonso and Trulli both drivers were picking up points.

There is also the fact that in 2003 the engines weren't as reliable as they were in 2008, picking up more points can be attributed to that along with other drivers being out the race as a result of an accident.

The honor will go to Vettel after this season. Back-to-back WDC, younger than Alonso and more wins/poles than Alonso (at similar ages). There's no way it isn't Vettel.

Well, Vettel is a super driver, no doubt, but I still miss from him some super drive in difficult conditions (in fact, Monza 2008 was almost hi best win). All his victories came after getting the pole and driving the best of all cars. 12 out of his 16 victories are from pole (14 of 26 in Alonso's case). Only time will tell, Vettel is to me a fantastic driver lucky to be in the right place (as Button was lucky in 2009 of having a Brawn). I think we all know that luck is part of this sport. And in that sense, I think Alonso never had that luck, because he never had a dominant car (in 2005 the McLaren was faster almost everywhere, and in 2006 the Ferrari-Bridgestone was quite faster for 2/3 of the year). So having that in scope, I think Alonso is the man of the current era because he could be there is extremely variant conditions (different teams, different rules, different tires...).

Vettel records are to me some statistical anecdote, equaly as Schumacher is topping all tables in stats but Senna is still remembered as the best one.

PD: I would say that currently, recent championships are remembered as the "Red Bull - Newey" dominance most than Vettel's dominance...

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather ingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were honest).

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

What are you talking about dude? proof? what is it that you want me to prove? I'm here simply stating my opinion, not prove anything to anybody, you either like what I write or you don't, agree, or disagree, I don't intend to prove anything to anybody.

I didn't get that impression.

To get back to my original point which has been diverted a bit......Yes there are car differences, and yes, I take that into account.

Not enough evidently.

There are certain circumstances where a driver can me a difference, and yes, Brasil 08 was one of those.

And how? There isn't a magical window in the conditions of the track where car differences are nullified. Each car will always behave and perform uniquely in any condition. That's one of the beauties of F1. If F1 was a spec series, I'd agree with you.

Now, there are a few things that we know for a fact, that Lewis was driving a World Championship contending McLaren, that McLaren is one of the best teams in Formula 1 (regardless of where they sit in the standings in a particular year), that Hamilton is one heck of a racer, and that Hamilton is a demon in the wet, can we agree on this?

A world championship car and a world championship team can have it's shortcomings in areas, areas where not so good cars and teams can shine with Brazil 2008 being an example of this for McLaren.

The McLaren of that year while quick, was particularly difficult to drive and required a certain driving style to get the most out of it as shown by Kovalainen's smoother driving style killing the tyres too quickly. It's shortcomings was definitely in tyre wear, particularly on intermediate tyres when the track conditions started drying, evidence of this being in Silverstone when Kovalainen wore his rear tyres out so much that he spun several times and when the performance from Hamilton's tyres went off at Monza, the same race where Hamilton was originally on a one stopper but the team believed more rain was coming so they gave him extremes instead of intermediates. Brazil was more about McLaren pitting Hamilton too early for inters, and while the drivers who stayed out on slicks were still posting fast lap times, Hamilton was out there floundering on hot treads.

There are more examples of your perceived God-like team and car screwing up, but I thought that was enough.

Now, here comes little ole Vettel, (If it makes you happy, I'll remind us all it's a Newey design STR, so was the 06, 07 and 08, RBR, didn't see them lighting up the boards, but anyway...) Now, this Toro Rosso you claim was really good in the wet, and it very well could be (IMO no it wasn't as great as all that)

I didn't claim that, but it certainly looked pretty handy didn't it? Remember Fuji 2007? Monaco 2008?

but even if it was as good, or even better than the McLaren, however unlikely,

Why unlikely?

Hamilton, being the demon that he is in the wet would just dust off this young crappy driver in the far superior STR, because, we all know, that Hamilton can make the difference in the wet. Now, the only way that wouldn't be, is if the driver driving the car which was better than him was driving at least close to the level of Hamilton in the far superior and dominating STR so that the car difference would negate, or neutralize Hamilton's superior driving in the wet, otherwise Hamilton would still win, you understand this?

No

You see, you keep saying the Toro Rosso was better than the McLaren in the conditions, but you fail to account for the fact that Hamilton thrives in those conditions.

Um, for sure he's had great wet weather performances, but I don't see how it makes the differences between their cars any clearer. You could say that Vettel's cars have always been the best in the wet and that he just failed to drive it to its potential, but then there is no proof of that so I'm not going to bother. My question is why are you even bothering? Why believe something without any proof to back it up?

It's funny people trying to argue the RB6 wasn't utterly dominant... did you ever watch onboards? I can't count the number of times there was a particular corner on a track that both Vettel and Webber were flat out on while every other car had a lift (Silverstone, Barcelona and actually Monaco are good examples of this). Do you think that Webber and Vettel just have balls of steel and that everyone else is a wimp? Monaco 2010 is particularly telling, there are videos comparing Kubica to Webber side by side, for the whole first half of the lap Kubica is inch perfect and is actually a little bit ahead of Webber, it wasn't until turns 13-14 (the fast left right chicane, I'm terrible with corner names) where Webber get's the lead. Right at that corner you can see that Webber is flat out while Kubica (and every other car) had to have a lift... that was the 4 tenths right there, a clear example of Red-Bull's aero dominance making the difference.

Also you might say that the aero is balanced out by the loss of speed on the straights. Well consider the fact that in Australia last week Vettel was 17km/h faster than the nearest car through the high speed chicane at Australia. You do know he is going to carry that extra 17km/h an hour onto the next straight, I would bet that if you put the speed trap right before the braking zone before turn 13 that the Red-Bull would have the highest trap speed. Literally the only area downforce is a compromise is on a slow corner than a long straight situation (AKA Monza), but any time there is a high speed corner before a straight the drag penalty will be more than balanced out by the extra speed you can carry onto the straight. This is why Vettel was able to overtake with relative ease at Silverstone last year, he was massively faster than any car through the fast right hander onto the new section which allowed him to be along side into the slower corners and make the move stick.

Conclusion aero is KING in F1. The RBR chassis has clearly had the best aero for the last 1.5 seasons so thats why I (and apparently a few others) find it hard to rate Vettel. Obviously I rate him higher than Webber as for the last two years he has been better, and I think he is as quick as anyone in qually. But in a car without that qualifying edge like the MP4-25 or F10 I don't know if he would put up the same fight that Alonso and Hamilton did. My personal ranking is that Tier 1: Alonso and Hamilton, Tier 2: Vettel, Kubica, Button and Rosberg, and if I'm honest I think Vettel, Kubica and Rosberg could be tier 1 but in my mind they are unproven.

My .02

i see that some people try not to remember that:
in 2007 vettel was on average 0,5 sec slower than heidfeld in bmw and not faster than vitantonio in str.
in 2008, at some point, a fellow named adrien newey had something to do with the str developement (i think it`s telling that not with rbr - they had "retired" drivers).
in 2009 in overall best car on the grid vettel lost to, underrated imo, button who struggled in the second part of the season.
and at last, in 2010 in a car by light years fastest on the grid he almost lost the title and not only to his teammate, but to alonso in a third best car.
ok, he`s wdc now, but how can he be rated higher than button?

And now I don't agree with your assessment of Vettel. "He has that natural "x factor" somehow I can't see much of it. I have trouble remembering Vettel's memorable races. Maybe some can remind me of those and I'm not talking about races where he starts from pole and ends first in race. He is not known for defending properly from someone overtaking him, he has trouble overtaking himself, strategy difficult to judge but can't remember anything special, development questionable. (BMW letting him go for all those reasons). The only way he stands out is his qualifying but I still want to see him with a different teammate and especially in a worse car. Newey's designed car is so strong in qualifying that it's also hard to judge. Vettel maybe the best driver, could be very well, but for now he was lucky to be in the fastest car on the grid. I just can't remember him standing out with something exceptional while he was with STR. Look at Alonso, Lewis, Kubica, they can qualify, race, overtake, not make many mistakes, develop the car, especially Alonso and Kubica look like complete packages, Hamilton only needs to put his head in cold water from time to time and he'll be there too. Just thinking about it, can't remember Hamilton praised that much for his development skills.

I saw a number of special moments with Vettel during his early career, very early on actually. I'm only sorry that such fine displays were lost on you.
But perhaps the most noteable was his 2008 pole and win at Monza in very tricky conditions in... wait a minute... an STR.

There were numerous other displays of skill and speed and of course immaturity back in 2007... "damn kids" - Webber 2007.

Not your fault though, either you have only been following F1 for 5 minutes or you have no capacity to assess talent down the back half of the grid. One or the other clearly.

Ask any intelligent F1 pundit with access to the drivers, or engineers who have worked with Vettel and they will tell you one thing, the kid is blindingly fast. That is the x-factor as far as i am concerned. You can't teach speed, you either have it or you don't and this kid has got it in spades. He has been around for 4 short seasons, perhaps in a few years time he would have delivered some races you will find memorable, others here can already see the talent, we don't need special circumstances to define his speed.

Sure, he is no Alonso, but give him time and he may get close, he has all the right foundations to be a legend of the sport.

Alonso and Kubica, spot on they are the benchmark for me also, Lewis is great to watch a real talent (just in the wrong team ;) )
But don't underestimate Vettel. Unlike 2009 a top 3 driver did win the title in 2010. He wasn't the best in 2010, but he was deserving.

I declare that Vettel is the quickest driver because he still extracted more from the RB6 compared to his teammate and remember during the summer the German driver raced with a damaged chassis which allowed Webber to be quicker and win. Also he is achieving numbers only reached by the greats of this sport. How good he is will take time to assess but out of all the top drivers he is still the least experienced.

For me the inkling we had just how good he was, was at Monza in 2008. The greatest qualifying performance for me since Schumacher was Q3 at Suzuka 2009. Phenomenal. I share Bernie's idea of the current f1 dream team: Alonso and Vettel. of course it would be an impossible sitation for any team

relax, man. i didn`t react at your previous posts, but now it`s too much.
tell me, please, how you rank bourdais performance in the other torro rosso, with more fuel on board, that day. i remind you the guy was 4th on the grid.
don`t you think that this might have had something in common with some adrien newey`s participation in upgrading 2008 torro rosso cars, that were, by the way, very quick in wet conditions even without it?

now, after 2010 rbr title saga, i`m sure that it was also pr project to back in the second half of 2008 torro rosso instead of rb main team with 2, let`s say, "retired" drivers in order to promote the young gun, "baby schumi", to elevate the selling numbers of some energy drink.
who is better advertising platform vettel or maybe webber?
the answer is easy.

and this talk about broken chasis is just pathetic, vettel admited he had had problems with throttle operating until some changes were made in engine electronics.
that`s right, he was fractionaly faster, mainly in qualifying, but he also enjoyed last run advantage most of the time, you must admit. and we all know qualifying is all today,.
so i would recommend you to wait a while with comparing him to senna.

As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

Agree with all of what you say pretty much. But the best thing about your post is that it's balanced & objective imho. You acknowledge both driver's. Compliment their strengths & point out their weaknesses in your opinion. A pity some others can't look at things in the same manner that you do.

I have to agree in many instances with slideways and especially jez33. As I said after the race in Korea and agreeing with Sir Jack, Webber lost the championship right there and then. All he had to do is keep the car on the tarmac and bring home a good load of points and the championship was almost in the bag.

Things learned from both drivers:

- Webber has bogey tracks (Vettel does not though this year he improved his Valencia showing speed wise, race was a completely different story)
- Webber does not have the mental toughness going into the end of a championship despite what everyone says (the same reason why he did not win F3000, in Korea and Abu Dhabi he did not like he even wanted to be there)
- Webber is too cautious when in the lead causing Monza and Valencia to end up being poor races when he should have made the most of it.
- Webber has improved his consistency (but is still crash happy) but needs to improve it to the point where he is making the maximum out of the car 5 races straight etc. and not 2 littered with poor finishes the next event after
- Webber needs to improve his starts
- Webber can play the political game off track and is blunt, but sometimes it does not help his situation (Brazil, rumoured McLaren drive to replace Alonso)

- Vettel is blindingly quick (I always thought Webber was superfast in qualifying hammering his old team-mates, but after Vettel has done the same to him there is no question Vettel is quick)
- Vettel needs to improve his racecraft (something Webber is much better at despite his crashes and being marginal at times on the racetrack)
- Vettel needs to improve his mental toughness during the race
- Vettel needs to be less of car breaker to help his own chances (Barcelona comes to mind, running over kerbs both in Turkey Qly and Monza)

- Both drivers are brillant when out in front.

What I noticed and a lot of reasons why Webber finished ahead of his team-mates was he was able to qualify ahead and have car position. Except whenever Webber was crash happy and inconsistent - part of reason why Heidfield was able to outscore him during his season at Williams. Now the tables are turned, except Vettel is much quicker and able to match/go faster than Webber.

All this time, I too thought Webber would make the step up with the tier 1 guys i.e. Hamilton, Alonso and yes I'll put Vettel in that bracket once he improves his racecraft, but this hasn't happened. He is not fast enough on all tracks and that will put him at a disadvantage every time. I expect him to have another great year next year but I don't see him mounting a WDC without improving in all those areas. It will be even harder with KERs being introduced as this will play more into Vettel's hands.

It was a great season for Webber but is slowly disintegrated which is what is most disappointing. He is still a brillant driver but IMO will never be considered part of the elite tier 1 group.

Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel
Webber/Kubica/Rosberg
Button (While Button is a brillant strategic racer, he will never have the speed that those guys have above unless the car is absolutely in the sweet spot for him, otherwise he can be way off the pace)
Massa (Excellent 2008 but does not have the pace, consistency and was/isn't great in the rain. I've never considered him worthy of the Ferrari drive in the first place)
....

As DC says, you are only as good as your last race. Given Webber's last race of the season was pretty much his worst of the whole season both in qualifying and race you can see why all fans feel like he isn't as good as he was mid-season. Opinions will change again next year, that's how fickle we all are. If Newey produces another stunner next year which I bet he will, Vettel IMO will be on his way to his next championship.

Hey, at least it wasn't a drubbing like Alonso gave to Fisi once he got his hands on a top car. We know that Webber can compete at the front and dominate races. He just needs to do that more often.

The consolation thread is hardly more than a collection of excuses for the Webber fans and an opportunity to invent more conspiracy theories for those with more lively imagination. But the game can be played from both sides. I was prepared to give Mark Webber credit as a WDC if he had pulled it off in the the last round. He didn't and so this story was never written. Instead we wade through an ocean of self illusion which I'm not prepared to support. After a brief lip service to the man who beat their hero convincingly in the same equipment the Webber supporters fill pages after pages with their grief and crying. It needs a bit of counter balancing.

Could you clarify what you mean by "support"? He said himself he had equal equipment and he obviously had the support of his side of the garage. What more does he want? A cookie perhaps? He did a very good job this season, but he went about it the totally the wrong from the mental angle, especially near the end.

This Mark Webber against Red Bull charade was annoying like hell. Don't drive for the team if you don't like what you get.

It was never in Red Bull's interest to sabotage Webber and I'm sure there was never any intent to do that. They wanted the WCC after all. But Webber was right when he said his form in 2010 was an inconvenience to the team. And he certainly didn't get the support you'd normally see a team give a driver substantially in front of his team-mate with two races to go. No not team orders. I mean things like the last run in quali in Brazil or Abu Dhabi. Things like Horner coming out prior to Brazil and announcing the team will be built around Vettel in 2011 - I mean, what was the point of that? Way to make Webber feel on the outs. Dreadful timing. And then post-Korea having Gerhard Berger (close friend of DM) in an interview from Red Bull's Hangar 7 saying some spectacularly nasty things without anything to back it up. So much of the tension between SV and MW felt unnecessary and was a product of poor management IMO. It worked out for them in the end, but I'm not convinced they needed to make it so hard for themselves, or make Webber feel so isolated.

Webber was the one who was having his one man war against Red Bull while they were constantly saying that he got equal equipment and opportunity. It was very annoying for Vettel fans to have his reputation constantly smeared by the Webber PR machine. Gerhard is a great supporter of Sebastian's talent and gave him the car for his first victory in Monza 2008. Webber and DC were having by far more resources and were getting all the technical support from Adrian Newey months earlier than Toro Rosso. They could not match Vettel who beat them to glory by his talent and pace. Gerhard only told it as it was. Webber did not brake and knowingly allowed his car to become a hazard to the runners behind him. It is called "causing an avoidable collision" by the code.

Webber had the equipment and opportunity to become world champion... Whether Horner baked Webber cakes and Marko gave him backrubs is completely and utterly irrelevant. They gave him the car to go out to fight for a WDC. And they allowed him to do it. If they didn't want Webber in the WDC running, trust me they had 1 million ways to stop him without you or me ever being none the wiser. And consolation isn't synonymous with blaming everybody else. Consolation is comfort after disappointment. I fail to see why blaming everybody else is comfort.

well said

"It was a big day and we had the chance to do something incredibly unique, but in the end it didn't turn out for us."
Hard to feel sorry for Webber when he goes and says that. "Didn't turn out for us". Talk about sepparating yourself from the team...winning the WDC/WCC isn't enough? Oh wait, I guess he wanted personal glory...At least cranky pants didn't moan about being a "#2 driver". What a choke end to the season, just exemplifies how some drivers will never have a WDC mentality...

+1 Webber had it in his own hands to put a #1 on his car. He didn't and so he will have #2 next year.

I felt a bit of a disappointment that Dietrich Mateschitz did not go on the podium. He did great this season and all the years before. Unfortunately he is a very shy man when it comes to public appearances. He never goes on television if he can avoid it and he probably decided to send Helmut Marko instead. It was a fitting replacement as Marko had represented him for many seasons in F1. I'm sure most people around the world understood the gesture by the team towards their Austrian ownership.

Ok, now to the consolation bit. Mark Webber came back well from his injuries in 2008 which must have influenced his form in 2009. He drove a couple of good races and was often close to the pace which allowed him to pick up when one of the other contenders dropped the ball. He showed his experience in the qualifying under changing conditions such as Malaysia where he pulled out a 1.4 s lead and Spa. He also fully utilized his experience in Silverstone where he drove with a cool head and a hard hand. He generally used his great luck and the machinery he got to maximize his points. He deserved to be in the title race down to the wire and the place he got.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Actually MW had the second highest top speed, and the second fastest lap. And also had some very fast sector times.

I really don't understand the starting issues ... I cannot do it at the moment, but by looking at the various starts, then perhaps common traits might be worked out. it would be sad for the team to loose both championships, because they have not worked out starting. They have started well before though. Perhaps there is a correlation between high speed circuits, and poor starts for RBR? Both Spa and Monza are such circuits, and the RBRs have started poorly in both. Although in Spa, Webber knew he had a problem before the start, but the team's advice made his start even worse. Who knows???

About Singapore, the major players should be McLaren, RBR, Ferrari and logically Renault. All the changes for Monza won't count, as it is a unique circuit, and one that is the highest full power circuit, at 70%. The upgrades that come to Singapore are the ones that matter, and none of the big teams are telling us about them, although Renault said they'd be introducing changes and expected themselves to be right up there. RBR have said they have a few changes (Newey said so) but Newey also said that the formula is mature now, and hence changes did not make the big differences that they did last year. McLaren have said they'll be bringing changes to every race, and hence those changes would more more often than RBR's, due to McLaren's greater resources.

RBR though have had a history of bringing out changes that work immediately well, and the next race, work super well. The other teams haven't been like that, except perhaps Renault. That RBR used aero paint on both cars, was very curious to me. I wondered whether they were testing for Monza, or was it to do with Singapore? I have know way of knowing ... if it was for Singapore though, then that would indicate to me, that Newey might have another good idea. He's done that before, hasn't he ...

So I think we will not know, until Saturday week, around about Q3! I don't have enough real information to know anything. Except for the engine status, which favour Hamilton most now, with Webber and Button even, Vettel behind and Alonso is facing a penalty before the season ends.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Yes when Newey pulled down the Renault engine and rebuilt it to the same specs as the Ferrari engine that Torro Rosso were running in 2008 he stopped, pondered, and realized he wasn't a mechanic and he had no idea what he was doing despite his knowledge and skill. I have fortunately realized just how little some people know about how about F1, do you even know what the test is?

Don't agree. Definitely better for RBR that Jenson had won. Realistically, Lewis is McLaren's best chance at the title and when McLaren has a strong weekend, he will be the one probably winning. Whereas, when Ferrari are strong, we know that Ferrari is behind Alonso.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Fact is Webber and Vettel have driven this teams performance through the roof. Webber, Newey, Coulthard and now Vettel have built this team into world beaters.

That's an assertion not backed by history, mate.

Webber is a specialist in driving his teams to bankrupt [Minardi, Jaguar], while Vettel is some kind of King Midas.

I would like to highlight 2008, when the development skills of Webber made RedBull fall through the grid, while Vettel took ToroRosso, the scoundrels of Webber's Minardi and won Monza.


Leave Webber and Horner on their own and the team will do a 2008 again.

I hope Vettel leaves RB e goes to Mercedes, since he is not having fun at RB anymore.

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions.

1 15 S. Vettel Toro Rosso B 1:37.555 7
2 23 H. Kovalainen McLaren B 1:37.631 +0:00.076 +0:00.076 7
3 10 M. Webber Red Bull B 1:38.117 +0:00.562 +0:00.486 7
4 14 S. Bourdais Toro Rosso B 1:38.445 +0:00.890 +0:00.328

Bourdais pitted 3 laps after Vettel (and in general he is not a crap driver although F1 maybe did not suit him).

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions. Mine is:
OMG OMG Bourdais qualified fourth in a heavier Minardi !!!! Beating Ferraris, BMWs and one McLaren (Ham)!!!

Wow. That does put things into perspective.

Kind of supports the view that the Red Bull and Toro Rosso cars of that year (especially the Toro Rosso with the Ferrari engine) were very good, just lacked development.

You are doing just the opposite. The "Newey designed Red Bull" of 2008 cannot compare to the 2009/10 versions. Vettel beat the 2008 Red Bulls too in his "Newey STRF" - that is why it was brilliant. The car retired 6 times - it was no great wonder, the "wonder" was Vettel (9 point finishes in his first full year = 34 points. He was the top driver for the entire RBR F1 conglomerate that year, which is why he EARNED [can I stress that word] his Red Bull Ride).

(About cars designed by Newey)

Just to put things into perspective, top 4 cars from qualifying Monza 2008 (in case someone forgot) were:

1. Vettel (TR) - Newey
2. Kova (McL)
3. Webber (RB) - Newey
4. Bourdais (TR) - Newey

These are facts - you draw your own conclusions. Mine is:
OMG OMG Bourdais qualified fourth in a heavier Minardi !!!! Beating Ferraris, BMWs and one McLaren (Ham)!!!

You honestly believe the TR was the absolute best car in 2008? Dream on sunshine.

As we have seen with the Red Bull cars (and Newey cars in general) they tend to be very good in the wet- they occupied pole and the second row of the grid at Monza that year. Vettel most definitley showed up the big sister team that day and displayed maturity beyond his years, but it's worth noting that Bourdais laptimes were comparable with his teammate during that race. A possible one-two lost due to a technical glitch on the grid.

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

The Torro Rosso is also made by the hands of Newey?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

Now we are talking semantics. No F1 car is slow, as they all could run rings around any supercar you can find on the street. Regardless, compared to the top contenders of those years, overall the cars of the aforementioned years were slow by F1 standards.

MP4-19 didn't win any races, that was the MP4-19B which was a totally revised new version. MP4-19 was slow.

Ehh... 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008?

Aww come on. Just because his cars didn't have a shot at WDC those years doesn't mean they were slow. In 2002 McLaren was new to Michelin. In 2004 they had some problems with the famous MP4/19. They still won at least one race those years. In 2006 they weren't very good, but hadn't Räikkönen crashed it in Hungary it could have been a winning car too. In 2007 and 2008 nobody seriously expected a winning car considering the competition. Still in Fuji 07 it was very close to victory only to be ruined by Vettel. And in 08 the car won in Monza...

By the way, the MP4/21 is considered a Newey-design, but he wasn't with the team anymore when the season was on.

I believe most other designers would be happy about such a record in their CVs.

What is it exactly about his cars that enable them to go so fast in wet conditions? We've seen this since 2007, where Vettel and Webber and even Liuzzi were able to put the Red Bulls and Toro Rossos to good use in the rain. In 2008, it was again obvious, particularly at Monza where there were 3 Newey-designed cars on the first 2 rows after qualifying. And now AGAIN, with all new cars, the Red Bulls look to be even more stellar than before, and the Toro Rossos were going good as well.

I had been assuming that the diffuser-three would be the stars of the wet weather conditions as they'd naturally have a downforce advantage, especially at the rear where getting the power down is crucial in the wet. But Toyota wasn't all that special, Williams weren't either, and most surprisingly, the kings of 2009, BrawnGP weren't even able to keep up.

Button mentioned trouble keeping heat in the tires, and this is what I'm thinking is their problem. Its seems as if BrawnGP's biggest advantage is their race pace, and maybe they aren't so hot in cooler conditions and in heating up their tires, kinda like how Ferrari were last year? Is it that simple? Would this also mean that the Newey cars, while good in qualifying or the wet, will be less stellar in normal race conditions over longer stints?

Alonso ... Never gave up despite having terrible machinery for half the season, and once he got his hands on decent machinery (3rd best car) he outscored the lot of them and won 2 races, beating a mclaren and bmw and finishing close to Kimi and widely acclaimed Kubica. The best driver of the season imo.

Hamilton...Was scrappy and made many mistakes but still dominated his team mate and won the wc in the second best car. Was lucky his main opponent was a fumbling Massa, otherwise he wouldnt have gotten close the wc though.

Kubica...Had a great 2/3's of a season but really fell away from Spa, and was outpaced by Heidfeld once the car started to become difficult. The jury is still out on him as to whether he can be complete or just fast in certain cars. Overall Solid, but overhyped in the end.

Massa...I think he made the most out of his limited abilities in the best car. He probably drove better than he was in the past but hes still not top class and was too inconsistent and made too many mistakes for a driver of his experience. I dont think he will get this close again.


Vettel...Had a great win and some good drives but i think hes been overrated as the car hes driving underrated. A Newey chassis and a ferrari engine is no joke so I dont think he worked the miracles many suggested. Even at Monza, that chassis dominted the front of the grid. Good season but jury still out.

Webber... Dominated his experienced team mate and never stopped trying. I think he will test vettel hard in 09.

Translated Q&A with Berger:

Q: What do you say to Vettel's performance ?
Berger: ''It's the best ! It's a long, long time ago that I've experienced something like this at this track. Twenty years ago I won here as a driver. That was a good moment too, but today it's almost better ! It still takes a little time before I really realise it. It's an incredible feeling to win with Toro Rosso. I didn't consider that to be possible.''

Q: It must simply be fantastic to experience such a result...
Berger: ''It's incredible. Standing on top of the podium at Monza: we didn't even dare to dream about it.''

Q: Vettel had already conquered pole position in qualifying and stayed completely calm during the race...
Berger: ''Sebastian really is a very special driver. Today he has shown he can win races, and by the look of things he will also be able to win worldchampionships in the future.''

Q: The entire race Vettel was flawless. Wasn't there a problem of any sort along the way ?
Berger: ''No, there was no problem. You really have to say the victory was absolutely won on merit. There was no luck or particular coincidence involved. It simply was a super strong performance from the team and from the driver.''

Q: He got through the Safety Car period particularly calmly. What was it like from his point of view ?
Berger: ''He started the race very strongly. He zigzagged on track in the last corner up until the last moment, really as if he were an experienced driver. He was well awake there.''

Q: On the eighth lap he almost lost the rear of the car...
Berger: ''That was on the limit, really marginal, but he really had to drive on the limit because we knew some drivers were on a one stopper. We had to build up a gap in order not to get stuck in traffic after the pitstop, not being able to win the race at all.''

Q: The weather didn't get worse as many had expected, instead it stayed dry. This allowed you to change to intermediates at the second, scheduled, stop. That decision was dead right, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''At that point the decision was no longer so hard because a number of cars were already out on track on intermediates. We saw that went well and that it shouldn't have been a problem for us.''

Q: Generally you're a calm man, but how high was your heartbeat in the final laps ?
Berger: ''It's been pretty high the entire day...''

Q: But when did was it clear to you, you were actually able to win the race ?
Berger (laughs) : ''Early in the morning when I went out of bed.''

Q: Sebastian's father Norbert was in tears. Is it a special family ?
Berger: ''I think he'll be crying a lot more for his son in the future ! They're a cool family. But I would like to say something else: people always talk about 'Gerhard Berger's team'. It's a team from Red Bull and me together. Therefore I would also like to thank Red Bull. This year Red Bull Technology has supplied us with a car that is fast in really every circumstance. The team now understand how to set it up and to convert (this into results) well, but the basis came from Red Bull. A big thank you to them !''

Q: Why is your car faster than that of Red Bull Racing ?
Berger: ''I think it's equally fast, but there are differences in the set-up and the 'mood of the day'. Sometimes we better get the job done, sometimes it's Red Bull doing that. Perhaps we also have a small advantage with the Ferrari engine. Since two or three races we've been able to really make use of that. That's why we're a bit in front at the moment.''

How important is Giorgio Ascanelli for you ?
Berger: ''Giorgio is a very important character in the team, I've known him as very good man from my days as a racing driver, especially with regard to setting up the car. He was my race engineer when I won here with Ferrari 20 years ago. We know each other well.''

Q: It was a golden move to hire him, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''Since that time it never went out of my mind. I already wanted to take him with me to other teams back then, but unfortunately that didn't really work out. The fact that he came from Ferrari obviously is a very good story for Toro Rosso. Because to win you need a team. Now Toro Rosso really is a strong racing team.''

Q: How many people are working for Toro Rosso today ?
Berger: ''180. Though in comparison with other teams one should keep in mind that we get a lot of technology from Red Bull Technology. Therefore it's clear that we have a bit less people, but even then we're a small team. But we work very well and very efficiently.''

Q: Many employees have been here since the Minardi era. They were never rewarded for their work back then. Isn't it nice that they now have something to celebrate as well ?
Berger: ''That's incredibly joyful because we've been fighting for two years to get rid of the old Minardi-culture and get a winning mentally into the team instead. Many have dropped out because they weren't able to change over. Those that are here now are the ones that have said: 'We go the tough way!' That's the biggest success for them. I think they'll now acquire a taste for it.''

Q: In the future you will no longer be allowed to use Red Bull customer cars. Do you already have thoughts about that ?
Berger: ''Many, but today I'm really not thinking about it...''

Q: Is there perhaps still a chance that Vettel stays in the faster Red Bull car, so at Toro Rosso...
Berger: ''It's a great loss for the team when Sebastian leaves us. On the other hand we're part of the Red Bull family and we agree that Sebastian should be there, where it's best for Red Bull.''

Q: Can he be kept within the Red Bull family, or will he end up at one of the big teams at some stage anyway ?
Berger: ''That depends on us. When we give him a car with which he can win races, then there's nothing nicer than winning races for Red Bull. Then it could well be that he stays.''

Q: Bourdais had a problem at the start straight away, what was wrong ?
Berger: ''The engine stalled, but we don't know exactly know why yet. Shortly before the start we changed the steering wheel. I think that something has gone wrong there, but we still have to analyse it.''

Q: A shame because his position on the grid was very good. How do you go about your driver in such a situation ?
Berger: ''He's now in the shadow of this success. You should obviously look after him straight away because he's obviously suffering a lot. He was in a good starting position and has seen what was possible. Having a technical problem at a moment like that hurts.''

-----------------------------------------------------------

Translated Q&A with Tost:

Q: What does this victory feel like ? One shouldn't forget where you started this adventure...
Tost (laughs) : ''We started from pole position. No, seriously: a few years ago we wouldn't have thought to win here at Monza in 2008. Monza is something special for the Italian teams and drivers. Monza has a fantastic history. To win a race here, it being the first of the team with Sebastian as the youngest driver ever winning a GP, is outstanding.''

Q: The atmosphere must be unbelievable now...
Tost: ''You can see it. All the boys are celebrating.''

Q: How long will you be celebrating at the factory now ?
Tost: ''Tomorrow I'll fly to Jerez. There we will test with two potentially new drivers: Sato and Buemi.''

Q: Sebastian did a perfect job, didn't he ?
Tost: ''From the first lap on it was a perfect drive. Since Friday he has been preparing in the best way because even though the circumstances on track were not always good, he always went out to see where there was water, where to watch out, where you catch wind, etc. Bourdais did the same by the way. He was able to use all the information that he had collected on Friday and Saturday to win the race. Sebastian controlled the race all the time. The strategy was perfect, the same goes for the pitstops.''

Q: Why did you chose to go for a short first stint ?
Tost: ''Firstly, we wanted to be at the front at the start. Secondly we wanted to have free visibility in case it would rain. Thirdly we didn't stress the tyres with too much weight. Fourthly we wanted to remain flexible in case we had to change from extreme wets to intermediates.''

Q: This victory is also a statement from the team...
Tost: ''We have won here, but I have to admit that the circumstances played into our hands because we would have only become sixth or seventh if it had been dry. You could see that in the test here. The rain has helped us and particularly our strategy because we were on a short first stint, and that was exactly right. We took the tyre degradation into account and expected our strategy to be the fastest one. Luckily we've proved that.''

Q: You've perfectly prepared the Red Bull car. How impressed are you with the team members and Giorgio Ascanelli in particular ?
Tost: ''Ascanelli is on of the fathers of the team. He has contributed all his technical know how from the past. That's the main reason for this victory.''

Q: Did it help the team, that isn't used to having a leading position on track, to have someone like him on the pitwall ?
Tost: ''Certainly.''

Q: What did you say to Sebastian in the final laps over the radio ?
Tost: ''Nothing. It was absolutely calm because he drove well and his laptimes were very fast. We would have only bothered him if we had told him to drive slower or in a different way. So we let him alone. As we now know: he's experienced enough to bring home a result like that.''

Q: You've obtained the first result for Red Bull. That must be very satisfactory, especially since you don't just get the car delivered but also develop it yourself, right ?
Tost: ''I have to say that Adrian Newey and Red Bull Technology have done a fantastic job because we get the basis of the car from Red Bull Technology. We set up the car ourselves, but actually each driver does that since he has his own preferences. The one driver wants hard springs, the other one soft ones, etc. That's basically the job we do in Faenza.''

Q: Now your sixth in the constructors championship. What's your aim for the rest of the season ?
Tost: ''We have made a leap forward but we have to keep with our feet on the ground. I would be happy if we collect points in the final five races. I don't think we'll win another race this year because Ferrari, McLaren and BMW Sauber are still ahead of us, clearly that is.''

Q: Last year at the rain race in Fuji you almost made it to the podium already. Do you hope for similar circumstances in the final races ?
Tost: ''Certainly ! We're a racing team and we always want to end up as far to the front as possible. When we're best in the rain that I pray for rain all the time ! That's only logical !''

Q: Does this success change anything to the future plans ? Mateschitz has offered his 50% stake in the team for sale...
Tost: ''I don't know. Mateschitz should answer that question. I expect that the price of the team has risen ! That's good for him because he's a businessman that's willing to regain the money he has spent. But for the team itself not much changes. Hopefully we'll get a few new sponsors because of it. The basis for that is obviously better being a winner rather than a looser.''

Q: At Monza in 2005 Minardi was still the worst team. In the period in between you've improved tremendously...
Tost: Yes. There are several factors. The first one factor is Red Bull, or rather Mateschitz. Without them we wouldn't have been here celebrating this victory. The second factor is Red Bull Technology. They supply us with a very good car. The third factor is Ferrari, they supply us very strong engines as you can see. We work together with them very closely and we're very happy about our collaboration.''

''Then the drivers shouldn't be forgotten about either because they're doing a fantastic job despite the fact they're still pretty new to F1. Vettel is driving his first full season. His performance curve is a very steep one. Then there's Ascanelli with his technical team, they do a staggeringly good job. We have the car under control and know how to set it up. That's important for the drivers in order for them to feel comfortable in the car. That's one of our most important factors for this success. In Faenza we're now improving our infrastructure. We're growing step by step. You can see the results.''

Q: You're no longer allowed to use customer cars in 2010. You have to build an own chassis. What are your plans regarding this ?
Tost: ''We've already begun extending the team for it to become a constructor. In 2005 we started off with 80 people. Now we're with 175. Another 80 will be added to that in the near future. These are the steps we have to make to become a constructor. We're also negotiating with several (owners of) windtunnels. That's a big task.''

''I'm not convinced that that is the right way for Formula 1, because we have six manufacturers. I think we should have six manufacturers and six private teams, and each private team should cooperate with a manufacture. Red Bull's philosophy was to have an engineering centre that supplies two teams with cars. That has reduced the costs because we only spend a quarter of the budgets of other teams. Nevertheless we're able to win, as we've shown at here. So far we've gone the right way in terms of efficiency and economics. But the regulations no longer allow this so we'll have to do it differently in the future.''

Q: ''Do you think things will still change as far the customer cars are concerned ?
Tost: ''When people use their brains then that will be the case. Just look at what's happening in the world of business: everyone's working together ! Even the car manufacturers start co-operations. Why ? They no longer want to spend so much money on R&D, which is comprehensible when, at the end of the day, the results almost stay the same.''

''We're now looking for a windtunnel. Even if we were to let a 130 people work in the windtunnel, we wouldn't build a revolutionary car because the regulations and the physical laws impede that. All the cars almost look the same. I'd like to bet that there are no more than five people that would be able to tell which car is from which team if they were all painted in white. But never mind, rules are rules. We try to achieve the best. We'll see the results in the future.''