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You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Well they may be saying the STRF couldn't have won but for Vettel, but you are saying that Vettel couldn't have won but for the STRF. What's the difference? To me, both arguments are disingenious.

It was clearly the combination of Vettel and the STRF that got the job done that day. But you can't discount the artistry and aptitude of either.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

Well I see what you are saying - and looking at it from that perspective, you likely expected Vettel to pole and win - thus there was no excitement for you except that you ended up being right.

But most people were not as perceptive as you and were shocked at the pole. And even after the pole, they felt that the STRF wouldn't be first to the checkered flag. "A podium would be fantastic" claimed the BBC commentator, and as a fan of Vettel, I agreed and hoped he'd do it. However, I fully expected some of the better running cars to take and keep the lead during the race. As the race progressed, that didn't happen, and it was with growing excitement that everyone started to realize that he might not only get a podium, but if he kept it up, 1st. That was what was against the odds. Not the ability of the car which was clearly running fantastic on the day - but Vettel's performance as a rookie (he was still in his 1st full season behind the wheel), and the continued performance of the car (it was running well, but it was - alas - a midgridder, which means that everything could go completely wrong at any moment. If you need proof of that, check out what happened to his teammate in that STRF running great on the day.)

To add to the excitement and against all odds ideology:

-It was raining and drivers were having problems - good drivers. Vettel drove well, but his car had a few excursions during the race as well, yet he managed to keep it on track in first.

-It was the very first win for any of the Red Bull backed teams - building on the Minardi sure, but that is the whole point - they had to build on it and they did it. It was a great win for RBR and Minardi lovers could also celebrate from a historical standpoint. More importantly, the whole team and crew could celebrate as well - it was a stellar accomplishment in every aspect that went into race day from crew, to team, to company to driver, etc.

-It was Vettel's first win and pole and he happened to be the youngest ever driver doing so - in a mid grid car that was having the day of its life right along with him.

-It was Ferrari powered - and it was Monza - the crowd was insane. The car with italian roots; the italian engine; the italian anthem being played (in error, lol) - it was fantastic.

So that is a small snapshot of why it was a fantastic F1 moment to many (there are other reasons of course). Seb's onboard lap following the race evidences what most on the grid thought about it too. You should check it out if Youtube still has a copy.

some funny statistic, between 1999 and 2010 NO Newey car delivered a championship. Drivers in those cars: Mika Hakkinen, David Coulthard, Kimi Raikkonen, Juan Pablo Montoya, Pedro de La Rosa, Mark Webber, Christijan Klien.
Another funny statistic: Between 9/10/2005 (Raikkonen Japan) and 14/9/2008 (Vettel Monza) no Newey car won a single race (although to be honest he didn't design a car in 2006. But fielded 4 in 2008)

one could conclude that even a Newey designed car is no guarantee for succes. (I will admit the RB7 is a great car, but it is no way near as good as the championship standings suggest.)

You don't get it.

All that became because I said that the fastest laps are not the absolutely truth. And like I proved, I´m right.

Vettel was on the front and didn´t risked pushing, because he didn´t need. It´s logical and not too difficult to understand, a sign of maturity of the WC that became some years after Monza.

Vettel achieved the récord of points in Toro Rosso by so far. He did on 2008. Just 39 points, he achieved 35 for the team.

When he left TR the team achieved 8 points. And even with the new change of points in 2010... he still keeps the record.
(It´s normal Giorgio compared him with Senna not only qualyfing)

But we all know that Toro Rosso in 2008 was the fastest car and he needs a Newey car...

Very easy

Once the specific circumstances are considered - all of them - it is one of the 'great' wins in F1 history. Vettel was a part of it - as was his (increasingly better performing during the season) STRF. But that was just the tip of the iceberg. There are so many firsts associated with that drive/driver/car/team, and so many props going out to the many connected to the drive - and so many in F1 lauding it all before, during and after, it is rather ingenious of you to discount it as 'just another good win' among the many in F1. But perhaps you are serious, and everyone is truly welcome to their Honest opinion. I would have to disagree with you though, and I believe 99.9% of the world of F1 would too (if they were honest).

You misunderstand me. I'm not doubting it was a fantastic win, but many people are of the opinion (like you say everyone is entitled to it) that there was no way the Toro Rosso could've won a race, but for Vettel. My point is that at Monza, it definitely was either the best or 2nd best car on the grid.

Of course Vettel was a part of it, but it was only 'against the odds' because of the team's history, not because of it's present (2008 of course) form. This wasn't a win in a Minardi, this was a win in an Adrian Newey-designed, Ferrari-powered full 'works' (in that it had the same developments as up at RBR) car that was run by old Minardi guys, a team who always ran their cars, however good they were, impeccably. The historical image of the team was no more, yet that is what makes up the bulk of the 'myth'... 'Vettel wins in Minardi' etc etc etc.

Originally posted by undersquare
There's speculation that STR might switch to Honda engines, with Sato, and RB take back the Ferrari engine supply (which they signed for originally before Newey arrived and wanted Renault).

I would!

F1Live

Originally posted by AFCA


I think that's very unlikely. All the teams have already made considerable progress on next year's car. Deciding to change engine supplier I think is the equivalent of walking straight to the grave. And not just because of the engine: also in terms of gearbox and KERS design, something the teams are working on together very closely. It's just too late and all the work that has been done on the points I mentioned would turn out to be useless...

Berger denies Sato would be brining along Honda engines: ''Whether or not Sato will join us is solely dependent on his performance.''

''First of all we have a valid contract. And with 'we' I mean Toro Rosso (as opposed to Red Bull I guess - AFCA). Secondly we're very happy with Ferrari. And thirdly we're obviously willing to further improve next year. With a new engine we would have to start from scratch again in many areas. And that's not our aim.''

Would the team get Honda engines more easily/cheaply with Sato on board though ? ''Possibly, but that's not what it's about.''

-------

As for Bourdais not testing next week (Buemi day 1, Sato day 2, Vettel day 3), Berger: ''The fact Bourdais isn't going to test doesn't mean anything.'' Tost: ''Vettel will be in the car on the third day because we want to test some parts with him that so far haven't suited him very well and we want to hear his opinion about them.''

Meanwhile, after the German had already denied it himself, Marko came out saying that Vettel taking over Coulthard's seat from Monza onwards is bollocks: ''I don't know who's been spreading this around but it's nonsense.''

Translated Q&A with Berger:

Q: What do you say to Vettel's performance ?
Berger: ''It's the best ! It's a long, long time ago that I've experienced something like this at this track. Twenty years ago I won here as a driver. That was a good moment too, but today it's almost better ! It still takes a little time before I really realise it. It's an incredible feeling to win with Toro Rosso. I didn't consider that to be possible.''

Q: It must simply be fantastic to experience such a result...
Berger: ''It's incredible. Standing on top of the podium at Monza: we didn't even dare to dream about it.''

Q: Vettel had already conquered pole position in qualifying and stayed completely calm during the race...
Berger: ''Sebastian really is a very special driver. Today he has shown he can win races, and by the look of things he will also be able to win worldchampionships in the future.''

Q: The entire race Vettel was flawless. Wasn't there a problem of any sort along the way ?
Berger: ''No, there was no problem. You really have to say the victory was absolutely won on merit. There was no luck or particular coincidence involved. It simply was a super strong performance from the team and from the driver.''

Q: He got through the Safety Car period particularly calmly. What was it like from his point of view ?
Berger: ''He started the race very strongly. He zigzagged on track in the last corner up until the last moment, really as if he were an experienced driver. He was well awake there.''

Q: On the eighth lap he almost lost the rear of the car...
Berger: ''That was on the limit, really marginal, but he really had to drive on the limit because we knew some drivers were on a one stopper. We had to build up a gap in order not to get stuck in traffic after the pitstop, not being able to win the race at all.''

Q: The weather didn't get worse as many had expected, instead it stayed dry. This allowed you to change to intermediates at the second, scheduled, stop. That decision was dead right, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''At that point the decision was no longer so hard because a number of cars were already out on track on intermediates. We saw that went well and that it shouldn't have been a problem for us.''

Q: Generally you're a calm man, but how high was your heartbeat in the final laps ?
Berger: ''It's been pretty high the entire day...''

Q: But when did was it clear to you, you were actually able to win the race ?
Berger (laughs) : ''Early in the morning when I went out of bed.''

Q: Sebastian's father Norbert was in tears. Is it a special family ?
Berger: ''I think he'll be crying a lot more for his son in the future ! They're a cool family. But I would like to say something else: people always talk about 'Gerhard Berger's team'. It's a team from Red Bull and me together. Therefore I would also like to thank Red Bull. This year Red Bull Technology has supplied us with a car that is fast in really every circumstance. The team now understand how to set it up and to convert (this into results) well, but the basis came from Red Bull. A big thank you to them !''

Q: Why is your car faster than that of Red Bull Racing ?
Berger: ''I think it's equally fast, but there are differences in the set-up and the 'mood of the day'. Sometimes we better get the job done, sometimes it's Red Bull doing that. Perhaps we also have a small advantage with the Ferrari engine. Since two or three races we've been able to really make use of that. That's why we're a bit in front at the moment.''

How important is Giorgio Ascanelli for you ?
Berger: ''Giorgio is a very important character in the team, I've known him as very good man from my days as a racing driver, especially with regard to setting up the car. He was my race engineer when I won here with Ferrari 20 years ago. We know each other well.''

Q: It was a golden move to hire him, wasn't it ?
Berger: ''Since that time it never went out of my mind. I already wanted to take him with me to other teams back then, but unfortunately that didn't really work out. The fact that he came from Ferrari obviously is a very good story for Toro Rosso. Because to win you need a team. Now Toro Rosso really is a strong racing team.''

Q: How many people are working for Toro Rosso today ?
Berger: ''180. Though in comparison with other teams one should keep in mind that we get a lot of technology from Red Bull Technology. Therefore it's clear that we have a bit less people, but even then we're a small team. But we work very well and very efficiently.''

Q: Many employees have been here since the Minardi era. They were never rewarded for their work back then. Isn't it nice that they now have something to celebrate as well ?
Berger: ''That's incredibly joyful because we've been fighting for two years to get rid of the old Minardi-culture and get a winning mentally into the team instead. Many have dropped out because they weren't able to change over. Those that are here now are the ones that have said: 'We go the tough way!' That's the biggest success for them. I think they'll now acquire a taste for it.''

Q: In the future you will no longer be allowed to use Red Bull customer cars. Do you already have thoughts about that ?
Berger: ''Many, but today I'm really not thinking about it...''

Q: Is there perhaps still a chance that Vettel stays in the faster Red Bull car, so at Toro Rosso...
Berger: ''It's a great loss for the team when Sebastian leaves us. On the other hand we're part of the Red Bull family and we agree that Sebastian should be there, where it's best for Red Bull.''

Q: Can he be kept within the Red Bull family, or will he end up at one of the big teams at some stage anyway ?
Berger: ''That depends on us. When we give him a car with which he can win races, then there's nothing nicer than winning races for Red Bull. Then it could well be that he stays.''

Q: Bourdais had a problem at the start straight away, what was wrong ?
Berger: ''The engine stalled, but we don't know exactly know why yet. Shortly before the start we changed the steering wheel. I think that something has gone wrong there, but we still have to analyse it.''

Q: A shame because his position on the grid was very good. How do you go about your driver in such a situation ?
Berger: ''He's now in the shadow of this success. You should obviously look after him straight away because he's obviously suffering a lot. He was in a good starting position and has seen what was possible. Having a technical problem at a moment like that hurts.''

-----------------------------------------------------------

Translated Q&A with Tost:

Q: What does this victory feel like ? One shouldn't forget where you started this adventure...
Tost (laughs) : ''We started from pole position. No, seriously: a few years ago we wouldn't have thought to win here at Monza in 2008. Monza is something special for the Italian teams and drivers. Monza has a fantastic history. To win a race here, it being the first of the team with Sebastian as the youngest driver ever winning a GP, is outstanding.''

Q: The atmosphere must be unbelievable now...
Tost: ''You can see it. All the boys are celebrating.''

Q: How long will you be celebrating at the factory now ?
Tost: ''Tomorrow I'll fly to Jerez. There we will test with two potentially new drivers: Sato and Buemi.''

Q: Sebastian did a perfect job, didn't he ?
Tost: ''From the first lap on it was a perfect drive. Since Friday he has been preparing in the best way because even though the circumstances on track were not always good, he always went out to see where there was water, where to watch out, where you catch wind, etc. Bourdais did the same by the way. He was able to use all the information that he had collected on Friday and Saturday to win the race. Sebastian controlled the race all the time. The strategy was perfect, the same goes for the pitstops.''

Q: Why did you chose to go for a short first stint ?
Tost: ''Firstly, we wanted to be at the front at the start. Secondly we wanted to have free visibility in case it would rain. Thirdly we didn't stress the tyres with too much weight. Fourthly we wanted to remain flexible in case we had to change from extreme wets to intermediates.''

Q: This victory is also a statement from the team...
Tost: ''We have won here, but I have to admit that the circumstances played into our hands because we would have only become sixth or seventh if it had been dry. You could see that in the test here. The rain has helped us and particularly our strategy because we were on a short first stint, and that was exactly right. We took the tyre degradation into account and expected our strategy to be the fastest one. Luckily we've proved that.''

Q: You've perfectly prepared the Red Bull car. How impressed are you with the team members and Giorgio Ascanelli in particular ?
Tost: ''Ascanelli is on of the fathers of the team. He has contributed all his technical know how from the past. That's the main reason for this victory.''

Q: Did it help the team, that isn't used to having a leading position on track, to have someone like him on the pitwall ?
Tost: ''Certainly.''

Q: What did you say to Sebastian in the final laps over the radio ?
Tost: ''Nothing. It was absolutely calm because he drove well and his laptimes were very fast. We would have only bothered him if we had told him to drive slower or in a different way. So we let him alone. As we now know: he's experienced enough to bring home a result like that.''

Q: You've obtained the first result for Red Bull. That must be very satisfactory, especially since you don't just get the car delivered but also develop it yourself, right ?
Tost: ''I have to say that Adrian Newey and Red Bull Technology have done a fantastic job because we get the basis of the car from Red Bull Technology. We set up the car ourselves, but actually each driver does that since he has his own preferences. The one driver wants hard springs, the other one soft ones, etc. That's basically the job we do in Faenza.''

Q: Now your sixth in the constructors championship. What's your aim for the rest of the season ?
Tost: ''We have made a leap forward but we have to keep with our feet on the ground. I would be happy if we collect points in the final five races. I don't think we'll win another race this year because Ferrari, McLaren and BMW Sauber are still ahead of us, clearly that is.''

Q: Last year at the rain race in Fuji you almost made it to the podium already. Do you hope for similar circumstances in the final races ?
Tost: ''Certainly ! We're a racing team and we always want to end up as far to the front as possible. When we're best in the rain that I pray for rain all the time ! That's only logical !''

Q: Does this success change anything to the future plans ? Mateschitz has offered his 50% stake in the team for sale...
Tost: ''I don't know. Mateschitz should answer that question. I expect that the price of the team has risen ! That's good for him because he's a businessman that's willing to regain the money he has spent. But for the team itself not much changes. Hopefully we'll get a few new sponsors because of it. The basis for that is obviously better being a winner rather than a looser.''

Q: At Monza in 2005 Minardi was still the worst team. In the period in between you've improved tremendously...
Tost: Yes. There are several factors. The first one factor is Red Bull, or rather Mateschitz. Without them we wouldn't have been here celebrating this victory. The second factor is Red Bull Technology. They supply us with a very good car. The third factor is Ferrari, they supply us very strong engines as you can see. We work together with them very closely and we're very happy about our collaboration.''

''Then the drivers shouldn't be forgotten about either because they're doing a fantastic job despite the fact they're still pretty new to F1. Vettel is driving his first full season. His performance curve is a very steep one. Then there's Ascanelli with his technical team, they do a staggeringly good job. We have the car under control and know how to set it up. That's important for the drivers in order for them to feel comfortable in the car. That's one of our most important factors for this success. In Faenza we're now improving our infrastructure. We're growing step by step. You can see the results.''

Q: You're no longer allowed to use customer cars in 2010. You have to build an own chassis. What are your plans regarding this ?
Tost: ''We've already begun extending the team for it to become a constructor. In 2005 we started off with 80 people. Now we're with 175. Another 80 will be added to that in the near future. These are the steps we have to make to become a constructor. We're also negotiating with several (owners of) windtunnels. That's a big task.''

''I'm not convinced that that is the right way for Formula 1, because we have six manufacturers. I think we should have six manufacturers and six private teams, and each private team should cooperate with a manufacture. Red Bull's philosophy was to have an engineering centre that supplies two teams with cars. That has reduced the costs because we only spend a quarter of the budgets of other teams. Nevertheless we're able to win, as we've shown at here. So far we've gone the right way in terms of efficiency and economics. But the regulations no longer allow this so we'll have to do it differently in the future.''

Q: ''Do you think things will still change as far the customer cars are concerned ?
Tost: ''When people use their brains then that will be the case. Just look at what's happening in the world of business: everyone's working together ! Even the car manufacturers start co-operations. Why ? They no longer want to spend so much money on R&D, which is comprehensible when, at the end of the day, the results almost stay the same.''

''We're now looking for a windtunnel. Even if we were to let a 130 people work in the windtunnel, we wouldn't build a revolutionary car because the regulations and the physical laws impede that. All the cars almost look the same. I'd like to bet that there are no more than five people that would be able to tell which car is from which team if they were all painted in white. But never mind, rules are rules. We try to achieve the best. We'll see the results in the future.''

For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

Q: How nervous were you that maybe an the last moment it wouldn't have worked out ?
Bourdais: ''Not at all nervous. Formula 1 has always been a dream. I have already fulfilled these dreams with the testdrives for Toro Rosso. I was in peace with myself. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if I again wouldn't have made it.''

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Q: Would it not be a problem to 'jump' from continent to continent, one time driving in ChampCar, the other time in F1 ?
Bourdais: ''But that's what I do for years now anyway. This year I've often been in Europe, to test with Peugeot for Le Mans, to drive the 24 hours. There's no bigger difference between a ChampCar and a sportscars.''

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''

Originally posted by AFCA
For the Bourdais fans (are there any here ? - I quite like him), a translated interview...

Q: You're finally a Formula 1 driver. Relieved ?
Bourdais: ''More than that. There were times in which I accepted to no longer make it into Formula 1. When it wouldn't have worked out this time, than it would never have. Next year I'll be 29.''

He's right, for taking the chance.

Q: What do you think about your new teammate Vettel ?
Bourdais: ''Although he's only 20 years old, he has more F1 experience than me. He's the experienced one, I'm the rookie. Who drives just as fast as Liuzzi from the start in Hungary, without knowing the car, must be a good racing driver.''

Already starting to make excuses by labelling Vettel as experienced? I could see this pairing having some trouble between them.

Q: Will you already be driving the Grand Prix' of Monza, Spa, Fuji and Shangha this year ?
Bourdais: ''First of all Toro Rosso must want that, then Newman-Haas must agree. The title in the ChampCar-Serie has the priority.''

Berger apparently has just confirmed Liuzzi will remain until the end of the season. Better for Bourdais I think, since this allows him to settle in with a winter of testing before racing.

Q: Many Formula 1 drivers that have switched to Formula 1 have had bad a experience. Doesn't that discourage you ?
Bourdais: ''I only see the positive examples. Jacques Villeneuve became worldchampion, Juan-Pablo Montoya wasn't exactly the worst there was. It's all about timing. You have to be at the right spot at the right time.''

Q: Newman-Haas fights for victories, Toro Rosso drives at the back. A new feeling ?
Bourdais: ''I'm prepared to grow with the team. Toro Rosso doesn't want to stay at the back. Let's see, perhaps Adrian Newey comes up with a topcar in 2008. The technical structure is already there.''

Well, Bourdais often comes off as too negative, but this is the opposite, really wishful thinking. I can't see Toro Rosso with a top car fighting for podiums in 2008, sorry.

Q: Will it help you that you're used to driving without traction control in the ChampCar ? In 2008 the decive will be banned in Formula 1.
Bourdais: ''I'm afraid the teams will find a way to realise some form of traction control. Somehow they will bring the power on the road in a controlled way. My advantage is that I can give Toro Rosso hints about how we do that in the ChampCar. I like to be technically integrated in a team.''

I hope he's wrong. :

Q: How do you cope with the grooved tyres in Formula 1 ?
Bourdais: ''I don't like them. Grooved tyres is not the way to go to make racing cars slower. It's better to reduce the aerodynamics and to increase the mechanical grip. That makes overtaking easier. The GP2-Serie already does that. My biggest learning demand will be to cope with the tyres. You have to set-up the car in such a way the tyres are not stressed too much.'' -- (There's a fair chance that next year there will be slicks in F1 - AFCA)

Q: With a fourth title you could write ChampCar history. Rick Mears, Bobby Rahal and Michael Andretti have three titles like you.
Bourdais: ''It doesn't interest me. I want to prove that we can become champion in any car. I can no longer hear the stupid chitchat about my team Newman-Haas always having been privileged by Lola. Now we're driving with Panoz-chassis, and we're up front nevertheless.''

Q: How does the Panoz drive in comparison with Lola ?
Bourdais: ''It's more nervous entering corners. I don't like it as much. Panoz has more downforce than the Lola, has a bit more airresistance and is a bit heavier (to drive).''

Q: Why is your team Newman-Haas the best in the championship ?
Bourdais: ''It comes down to details when all the cars are the same. Newman-Haas finds these details better than the other teams.''

Q: How strong are your rival drivers ?
Bourdais: ''From the 17 drivers maybe 7 of them earn money. The rest has to bring money. With that the question is answered.''

Well, this guy surely isn't afraid of speaking his mind.

This. Also, Vettel would never have won that race if the weekend had stayed dry. I also doubt he would have won if Hamilton had qualified himself well into Q3.

 

Absolutely, as to Hamilton. It's become a bit lost to memory that he had a couple of duff weekends in the last third of the 2008 season, and Monza was one of them.

 

F1 is and should be a cutthroat business and if a driver have 2 seasons and fail to deliver his employer, then I do not see any reason to find the driver being treated unfairly. I would actually want a lot more drivers dropped, since as someone posted above there are hundreds of drivers equally talented as the bottom half of the current grid.

 

Di Resta - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat. 

Sutil       - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

Massa    - We know how good he used to be, he is not anymore and there is no reason for a team to take a chance on him.

Chiton     - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.   

Van der Garde - We know what he can, what he can not and what he brings. Give someone else his seat.

 

Agreed, especially the cut-throat approach. Apparently that was Newey's argument for getting rid of Buemi and Alguersuari. I wouldn't retain any of the drivers you named but would differ with you only in arguing that Massa was always overrated. My recent watch-through of the season 2008 suggests he was as error-prone then as he is now and only got into a position to win a WDC through Hamilton's mistakes (including Hamilton's ruining of Raikkonen's race at Canada).

 

Also enjoyed the (intentional?) misspelling of Chilton. The amended version is an accurate summary of his skills.

Try reading the articles on the Red Bull program in the last issue of Autosport, they're very illuminating. Takeaway from them for me were: 1). It was Newey's idea, not Marko's, to sack both STR drivers after 2011, as it was clear by then that neither would ever be promoted to RBR; 2). They look for flaws in a driver's approach, try to pound them out, and cut bait if they can't; 3). They demand total commitment from the drivers in the program; and 4). They're not looking for guys who can win at STR, they're looking for guys who can win at RBR.

 

Seems clear that Alguersuari likely fell short in the commitment department, and didn't impress much on the track either. At the time I too thought they gave up on him way early but Jamie post-sacking does seem more interested in the DJ biz than in resurrecting his F1 career. 

 

As to point 4 and the myth that the STR guys needed to win at STR to be considered for promotion, remember that Vettel's promotion to RBR was announced in 2008 during the run-up to Hockenheim, long before the race at Monza. His win at Monza was a very nice bonus but didn't change his career trajectory.

Then another plus point for the Wunderkid since he won in the year (2008) before Newey was supposed to show his magic (2009 and beyond).... 

 

So much pro-Vettel spin...

 

Monza 2008 was unusual circumstances (rain affected qualy) and the STR3 wasn't a bad car i.e Newey, powerful Ferrari engine. But Vettel didn't even score another podium in 2008 so it really was a one-off circumstance.

 

But still a good win from a then likeable kid. But as I said, I can't stand the constant spin about anything-Vettel. "Wunderkid?"

Red Bull and Adrian Newey dominance does harm the sport.

 

People forget that EVERY single one of Vettel's wins including his Monza 2008 win driving for Toro Rosso was in a car designed by Adrian Newey. I am not denying that he is a good driver but not  Alonso, Hamilton and raikkonen good.

 

 

What other drivers think of Vettel's so called 'raw' talent... 

 

Alonso  

 

...but now we are fighting against Newey and, at the moment we cannot match him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hamilton 

 

 

For me, in my eyes, he(Alonso) really is a three or four times world champion. Seeing Sebastian dominate the last few races doesn't come as a surprise because the Red Bull has been dominant for the past few years. They seem to have a great capacity to improve the car. Adrian is just a genius. I can't even imagine what he's doing. He is a one-off. I've seen their speed - there was no way I could compete with that. Even if I drive at 200 per cent and crash, I can't match it.

  

 

 

yes you could say why isn't webber dominating too? Why assume both cars are created equal....... http://joesaward.wor...-as-he-sees-it/     like mark said "he(vettel) is the chosen one"

So much pro-Vettel spin...

 

Monza 2008 was unusual circumstances (rain affected qualy) and the STR3 wasn't a bad car i.e Newey, powerful Ferrari engine. But Vettel didn't even score another podium in 2008 so it really was a one-off circumstance.

 

But still a good win from a then likeable kid. But as I said, I can't stand the constant spin about anything-Vettel. "Wunderkid?"

 

 

Monza 2008 was a special circumstance? Of course it was special because the WunderKid won the race with a dry-weather set-up in a monsoon condition. FYI, I prefer the term "WunderKid" to "Finger Boy" - just a personal preference, I guess.

 

STR3 was a special car? Then STR4 with such huge regulation changes in 2009 should have been a much better car than STR3, is it not? It was still designed by Newey, the year was 2009 where Newey was supposed to wave his magic wand, equipped with the more powerful Ferrari engine, and yet they had 0 podium and 8 measly points to show for STR4. 

 

The kid is special, but he is not the best thing since sliced bread - not yet.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Actually MW had the second highest top speed, and the second fastest lap. And also had some very fast sector times.

I really don't understand the starting issues ... I cannot do it at the moment, but by looking at the various starts, then perhaps common traits might be worked out. it would be sad for the team to loose both championships, because they have not worked out starting. They have started well before though. Perhaps there is a correlation between high speed circuits, and poor starts for RBR? Both Spa and Monza are such circuits, and the RBRs have started poorly in both. Although in Spa, Webber knew he had a problem before the start, but the team's advice made his start even worse. Who knows???

About Singapore, the major players should be McLaren, RBR, Ferrari and logically Renault. All the changes for Monza won't count, as it is a unique circuit, and one that is the highest full power circuit, at 70%. The upgrades that come to Singapore are the ones that matter, and none of the big teams are telling us about them, although Renault said they'd be introducing changes and expected themselves to be right up there. RBR have said they have a few changes (Newey said so) but Newey also said that the formula is mature now, and hence changes did not make the big differences that they did last year. McLaren have said they'll be bringing changes to every race, and hence those changes would more more often than RBR's, due to McLaren's greater resources.

RBR though have had a history of bringing out changes that work immediately well, and the next race, work super well. The other teams haven't been like that, except perhaps Renault. That RBR used aero paint on both cars, was very curious to me. I wondered whether they were testing for Monza, or was it to do with Singapore? I have know way of knowing ... if it was for Singapore though, then that would indicate to me, that Newey might have another good idea. He's done that before, hasn't he ...

So I think we will not know, until Saturday week, around about Q3! I don't have enough real information to know anything. Except for the engine status, which favour Hamilton most now, with Webber and Button even, Vettel behind and Alonso is facing a penalty before the season ends.

Don't agree. Definitely better for RBR that Jenson had won. Realistically, Lewis is McLaren's best chance at the title and when McLaren has a strong weekend, he will be the one probably winning. Whereas, when Ferrari are strong, we know that Ferrari is behind Alonso.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Mark has to do with that Terrible start for two races, or more, while his title chance is on the tight rope. In what way could Red Bull leave the electric fault as it is?

Besides How strange that all of us, including us, tend to believe that Red Bull got One Weak spot that is Monza? With the knowledge and skill of Newey it should have been possible that the car runs at mush higher speed? It may well be completely irrelevant but in 2008 Vettel won there in his STR!

The whole team was busy fixing the front wing that flexes well and pass the FIA test. It should have required full energy of the team.

Yes when Newey pulled down the Renault engine and rebuilt it to the same specs as the Ferrari engine that Torro Rosso were running in 2008 he stopped, pondered, and realized he wasn't a mechanic and he had no idea what he was doing despite his knowledge and skill. I have fortunately realized just how little some people know about how about F1, do you even know what the test is?

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.



What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

If you read my post properly I was referring to that win and that win alone. Not the season as a whole as I never mentioned anything else about the season because clearly seb was talented, that was obvious to see and he earned his chance and has grasped it. I have nothing against that so you don't need to be so defensive in your seb love mate.

Bourdais said Marko was like poison in that garage, not to mention Jamie getting an earful from Marko in Korea which lead would have contributed to his sacking and you really think what they say and don't say behind closed doors is going to someone leaked out to the public? There is a whole load of politics behind closed doors whether it be RBR or any other teams just as there is in any organization. Seb has been protected by Marko since the start of the RBDYP, he is less likely to be the golden child if he heads to ferrari and Fernando handily beats him initially.

Sakae, from what I've read the conditions are loosely based where Ferrari are in the constructors championships at a point in time in the 2013 championship as to ensure for Vettel that he will has a decent car underneath him for 2014. Who knows the exact condition. On the other hand if RB do not say for example manage top 3 constructors for next season then Vettel has a get out clause and hence free to speak to Ferrari. However, if RB do hit those targets then I would imagine the option is exercised and Vettel would then have to see out 2014. Much the same IMO a similar scenario to Webber hitting a particular target for him to retain the RB seat for next season.

While I agree with the rest of your post to a large degree, I can't believe the rubbish that is sprouted about Vettel's win in the TR (where fans keep thinking in won in a Minardi which a load of rubbish as well - a Minardi is one that Marques or Yoong or Alonso or Webber drove not a Newey designed car with Ferrari power).

- He won one race with TR (I didn't see him winning any other races)
- That race was perfect conditions for TR, Newey's chassis that year was brilliant in the wet and the Ferrari had greater horsepower than the Renault of the RB (look at them at the bottom of the speed traps)
- BOTH TRs would have outqualified BOTH RBs had Webber not pipped Bourdais late on in qualifying

Taking away nothing from Vettel did what he does best which was lead from the front and stay there but him being a great driver in the TR when the car + weather suited the track at the right time is often overlooked by fans.

It wasn't a Minardi, it was a STRF with Newey input. And Seb made the most of it by beating out the big sister car - Single handedly. The Monza win was icing on the cake - but it was that PLUS the other 25 old school points that got him promoted to the seat at Red Bull. Seb drove a fantastic season in that car, by any standards, and proved he deserved to be in a top car. Not only did RB promote him, Macca thought he was pretty terrific too and tried to get him. So it isn't just crazed fans that saw his 2008 as a great bit of racing.

I don't see him with Alonso/Hamilton which IMO Alonso is the same so he would have no problems with Vettel coming over. Vettel doesn't also have Dr. Marko pulling strings for him like he had at TR and now RB. If he does go over to Ferrari and he beats Alonso then he would be considered a great to me. Out of the younger drivers, Hamilton/Vettel are the natural successors to Alonso which you can see why Ferrari have gone that direction.

What strings is Marko pulling for Seb at RB - and with whom? Why would that have any impact on his going to Ferrari?

What is it exactly about his cars that enable them to go so fast in wet conditions? We've seen this since 2007, where Vettel and Webber and even Liuzzi were able to put the Red Bulls and Toro Rossos to good use in the rain. In 2008, it was again obvious, particularly at Monza where there were 3 Newey-designed cars on the first 2 rows after qualifying. And now AGAIN, with all new cars, the Red Bulls look to be even more stellar than before, and the Toro Rossos were going good as well.

I had been assuming that the diffuser-three would be the stars of the wet weather conditions as they'd naturally have a downforce advantage, especially at the rear where getting the power down is crucial in the wet. But Toyota wasn't all that special, Williams weren't either, and most surprisingly, the kings of 2009, BrawnGP weren't even able to keep up.

Button mentioned trouble keeping heat in the tires, and this is what I'm thinking is their problem. Its seems as if BrawnGP's biggest advantage is their race pace, and maybe they aren't so hot in cooler conditions and in heating up their tires, kinda like how Ferrari were last year? Is it that simple? Would this also mean that the Newey cars, while good in qualifying or the wet, will be less stellar in normal race conditions over longer stints?

Hamilton - Lewis obviously has plenty of brilliant seasons under his belt, and his clean 2015 deserves a mention too, but I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated. Lewis went wheel to wheel with his main rival Vettel three or four times, and came out the winner each one of them. Masterful at avoiding incidents, I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010. 

Bottas - For me his 2014 pips 2016 and 2017. His mid-season cool-headedness and podium streak was something to behold. 

Vettel - 2011 and 2015 deserve a honourable mention, but Seb's 2013 was absolutely relentless. Say whatever you like about Newey-mobiles and blah blah, but people forget Webber was absolutely nowhere near Seb that year. 

Raikkonen - 2005 slightly pips out 2003 and 2007 because of his team-mate; especially in quali-trim, Kimi was the scary monster I was expecting JPM to be. Who can forget those quali laps at Monaco and Monza?

Ricciardo - it's often overlooked how good his 2016 was, but 2014 he was a revelation. Whenever Mercedes dropped the ball, Danny Ric was there to collect it. Not to mention his exciting overtaking form. 

Verstappen - 2017 was ridden with unluck, yet it didn't impact Max's form and he truly got rewarded end-season, remembering especially the great drive at Sepang. 

Hulkenberg - the German's got a tendency to put together brilliant half-seasons and be a bit inconsistent on the other half; end of 2012 and 2013, start of 2014, end of 2016, versus the less impressive other halves... But I would rate Nico's 2017 the best overall: entering the year, I think Renault was complete shambles (as demonstrated by Palmer's struggles) and it looked like it was the Hulk himself that was carrying the team from the bottom of the midfield back to the top of it. 

Sainz - been relatively consistent over his career really, but for me 2016 would stand out of the bunch

Grosjean - Romain has always been an up and down driver depending on his brakes - sometimes producing amazing drives into top places with cars that don't belong, sometimes looking like a complete idiot. 2015 was probably the season with the biggest ratio for the former instead of the latter, with the Spa podium as a particular highlight. 

Magnussen - similarly to his team-mate, Kevin is a bit of an up-and-down driver, sometimes truly struggling with a Jolyon Palmer. But his 2018 has been more of the former. 

Ocon - he's beating Perez with more of a regularity than last year. So, 2018.

Perez - hard to choose between the surprisingly mature, high-peaking 2012, and the clean and consistent 2016 that saw his team-mate Hulk leave Force India with his stock well lower than it had been - but I would lean for the latter if pressed. 

Alonso - I'm not as convinced about 2012 as everybody else seems to be (for me it had something to do with Massa being in the wrong place mentally as well); for me Fred's 2006 was even more impressive; going into a true one on one battle with the beast still relatively fresh-faced, and coming out as the winner. But you still have to honourably mention his giant-punching 2008 and 2009 with terrible cars, 2013 and 2014, 2016...

Vandoorne - I mean, 2017 was not that bad. About what you'd have expected from a rookie entering a McLaren team, with Alonso having had a bit of time to build it around himself.

Gasly and Hartley - well duhh... They are both driving better in 2018 than last year, no? 

Ericsson - has looked like he gets a little bit better every year, up until around Baku this year that is. So I'm going with 2017 and potentially ending Wehrlein's prospective F1 career by looking essentially not significantly weaker than him. 

Stroll - had streaks of form in 2017 where he looked like he truly belongs, especially at the end of the European tour. However, when he couldn't find the pace then he truly could not find the pace - hence, it's hard to assess whether him not performing this year is entirely due to the car, or due to him and Sirotkin being unable to hook it up without the experience of Felipe...

Just a couple of things i'd like to touch on:

 

(1) "I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010"

 

Irrespective of how "complete" or "incomplete" one considers Hamilton in 2012,  his on track performance was near flawless. Perhaps "twittergate" was the only real blot against him that year.  Otherwise, with a car  that was often breaking down, combined with a pitwall in total chaos, he maintained a high level.

 

(2) "I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated".

 

 

Agreed.

 

While W08 was often fastest over 1 lap, higher top speed, the SF70H  was often  more "stable" in race trim. I'm gonna say it, but there is even a large body of professional opinion that think Ferrari had the better car in 2017.

 

 Hamilton, again, was largely error free & consistent ( he had a couple of subpar weekends, like Russia, but to be fair,so did everyone else).

 

Hamilton - Lewis obviously has plenty of brilliant seasons under his belt, and his clean 2015 deserves a mention too, but I feel his 2017 with a difficult Mercedes is criminally underrated. Lewis went wheel to wheel with his main rival Vettel three or four times, and came out the winner each one of them. Masterful at avoiding incidents, I feel he wasn't as complete a driver in 2012 or 2010. 

Bottas - For me his 2014 pips 2016 and 2017. His mid-season cool-headedness and podium streak was something to behold. 

Vettel - 2011 and 2015 deserve a honourable mention, but Seb's 2013 was absolutely relentless. Say whatever you like about Newey-mobiles and blah blah, but people forget Webber was absolutely nowhere near Seb that year. 

Raikkonen - 2005 slightly pips out 2003 and 2007 because of his team-mate; especially in quali-trim, Kimi was the scary monster I was expecting JPM to be. Who can forget those quali laps at Monaco and Monza?

Ricciardo - it's often overlooked how good his 2016 was, but 2014 he was a revelation. Whenever Mercedes dropped the ball, Danny Ric was there to collect it. Not to mention his exciting overtaking form. 

Verstappen - 2017 was ridden with unluck, yet it didn't impact Max's form and he truly got rewarded end-season, remembering especially the great drive at Sepang. 

Hulkenberg - the German's got a tendency to put together brilliant half-seasons and be a bit inconsistent on the other half; end of 2012 and 2013, start of 2014, end of 2016, versus the less impressive other halves... But I would rate Nico's 2017 the best overall: entering the year, I think Renault was complete shambles (as demonstrated by Palmer's struggles) and it looked like it was the Hulk himself that was carrying the team from the bottom of the midfield back to the top of it. 

Sainz - been relatively consistent over his career really, but for me 2016 would stand out of the bunch

Grosjean - Romain has always been an up and down driver depending on his brakes - sometimes producing amazing drives into top places with cars that don't belong, sometimes looking like a complete idiot. 2015 was probably the season with the biggest ratio for the former instead of the latter, with the Spa podium as a particular highlight. 

Magnussen - similarly to his team-mate, Kevin is a bit of an up-and-down driver, sometimes truly struggling with a Jolyon Palmer. But his 2018 has been more of the former. 

Ocon - he's beating Perez with more of a regularity than last year. So, 2018.

Perez - hard to choose between the surprisingly mature, high-peaking 2012, and the clean and consistent 2016 that saw his team-mate Hulk leave Force India with his stock well lower than it had been - but I would lean for the latter if pressed. 

Alonso - I'm not as convinced about 2012 as everybody else seems to be (for me it had something to do with Massa being in the wrong place mentally as well); for me Fred's 2006 was even more impressive; going into a true one on one battle with the beast still relatively fresh-faced, and coming out as the winner. But you still have to honourably mention his giant-punching 2008 and 2009 with terrible cars, 2013 and 2014, 2016...

Vandoorne - I mean, 2017 was not that bad. About what you'd have expected from a rookie entering a McLaren team, with Alonso having had a bit of time to build it around himself.

Gasly and Hartley - well duhh... They are both driving better in 2018 than last year, no?   

Ericsson - has looked like he gets a little bit better every year, up until around Baku this year that is. So I'm going with 2017 and potentially ending Wehrlein's prospective F1 career by looking essentially not significantly weaker than him. 

Stroll - had streaks of form in 2017 where he looked like he truly belongs, especially at the end of the European tour. However, when he couldn't find the pace then he truly could not find the pace - hence, it's hard to assess whether him not performing this year is entirely due to the car, or due to him and Sirotkin being unable to hook it up without the experience of Felipe...

Superb race from Vettel, incredible performance! Future WDC, no doubt.
Pity for Bourdais, never got a chance to show what he could do. Newey again gets a victory for one of his cars - he hasn't lost his touch.

Great race from Kubica as well, again a podium, in very difficult conditions. He and Alonso were on the right strategy, as they got their stop essentially "free" because everyone else had to change to intermediates, as well.

McLaren lost a major chance to overtake Ferrari in the WCC and take a nice cushion in WDC, with yesterday's blunder. If Hamilton had started around Kova's position, he would have challenged for the win. As it was, nice damage limitation, though some hard driving at times (Webber and especially Glock). Hamilton was superb in his first stint, pity he didn't get the "free" pitstop and his pace on intermediates, after being initially impressive, suddenly dropped - Massa had much the same problem, I think. Due to tyre usage/graining, perhaps? Hamilton really animated the first third of the race though, with a fantastic march through the field that was a pleasure to watch.
Still, Hamilton had a bad weekend overall: harder dry tyres, a wet but drying circuit in the actual qual and race: he should have extended his lead instead of having it reduced to nothing. Soon, Ferrari's favorite conditions (soft tyres, dry weekend, heat) may come back and Spa and Monza were the type of weekend where Hamilton should have taken advantage. Title will be difficult, very much so.

Kovalainen really should have won, and on the podium his body language told it all. He's still not fast enough in the race.

Ferrari similarly lost a good chance to profit maximally from McLaren's mistakes: Massa made little impression and Raikkonen was couldn't keep up with Hamilton's march through the field. Their car may not be that good in those changing conditions.

Originally posted by primer


There are Minardi crews in that team but resource and car wise they are very different now. While taking nothing away from Vettel you have to accept that the car STR have been gifted is better than anything Minardi made for themselves.

My thoughts also. As much of a fairy tale it is, Minardi never had a Ferrari powered, Adrian Newey designed, british built car.

A few things clear after this race. Heikki and the Ferrrari drivers dont deserve there seats. Hard to put into words the incompetence of those drivers today. Kimi started in 14th and was stuck in 14 until the last laps when it dried, just unbeleivable. Ferrari managment getting their just desserts. Massa was just as bad, qualfying 1.3 seconds slower than Vettel with only 3 laps more fuel and out driven all raceJust incompetent.

Great drive from Vettel but its possible he had the best car out there because newey cars are known to be very slippery, and it seems he had a great setup, but he still made the most of it and dominated.

Great fighting drive from Alonso again. He made a great tyre call and embaressed the Ferrari drivers today, and was very quick in the final stages of the race. Highly rated Kubica in a much better car only beat him by 3 seconds today, on a terrible renault track, so he still has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same class as Alonso.

Ferrari better pray for no more rain, their drivers are just no good in the wet. I dont beleive these stories that their car is THAT bad in the wet. Ive never heard of a great car suddenly becoming terrible in the dry. Its mainly just a convenient excuse to cover up their drivers.