Toto Wolff crying wolf - Toto underplaying Mercedes performance

OP, did you just read the sensationalistic headlines? I know Autosport.com cheekily titled it ‘Wolff thinks even Williams could beat us”, but what he actually said doesn’t sound anything like that at all:

"So we are taking everybody seriously: whether it is Ferrari finishing second this year or Williams finishing 10th. All of them could come with a car that can outperform us.

"We are respecting all these teams and the effort they put into it and all of them are being seen as competitors."

And regarding the engine, he said was Mercedes had a setback in their development followed by this:

"Ferrari have a very strong power unit this year. Honda made big improvements with exceptional performances in the Toro Rosso. Also Renault propelled the Red Bull to be a win candidate at almost every race at the end of the season.

"You can see engine performance is converging. We have been the leader of the pack for many years now and, in order to stay leader of the pack next year again, and return to this position, we need to push very hard and we need to set ambitious targets.“

There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything he said perhap except to those who want to find fault in him.

I'd argue there's never been such a yawning chasm between the haves and have nots in the sport. As seen by the fact that seventh place has been considered an unofficial "victory" for anyone not driving a Mercedes, Ferrari, or Red Bull for the last little while now. A team like Sauber could design a brilliant car, run a perfect race, and likely still not even finish on the podium. Renault is the only team that could potentially upset the hegemony, but I doubt they really have the budget or resources of the top three to do so.

 

Until this unbalance is addressed with a budget cap or whatever, it's impossible to imagine another team doing a Brawn. Near 10 years on, the sport is so different, and unfortunately so much more expensive, than back then. Even if Mercedes mucks up massively, they'd still be the third best team at worst.

A start to fixing some of these problems would be getting rid of back of the garage and back at the home base rooms filled with analysts and engineers who make NASA's mission control look like a planning group for a wine and cheese party. Just make them illegal. 

I don't think he purposely downplays things, he's just somewhat of a pessimist (or maybe a realist). Being cocky and overconfident nearly always backfires on you. 

Yep, you don't stay successful by sitting with your feet up and giving yourself a pat on the back. Clearly Toto's mad paranoia and Mr Worry performance has it's benefits.

 

Wolff being critical of his own team and efforts and trying to make sure to stay ahead of the curve is a good thing, that's what someone in his position should always do.

 

Other teams would be quite pleased to see someone like that on their pit-wall. But when you expand that to include Williams, well, then you're just taking the piss.

 

Not just because Williams was where it was in 2018, but also because we've seen and heard the stories about Mercedes' influence from Force India and Williams.

Edited by Nonesuch, 09 December 2018 - 09:57.

People forget that the winning car of Brawn was actually designed by a well-funded team. Massive amounts of money was thrown in by Honda for the development of the 2009 car.

 

So yeah, 2009 is not going to happen again, because we have just 3.5 well-funded teams. Three of them already are at the front and have been for a while and that 0.5 is Renault...

People forget that the winning car of Brawn was actually designed by a well-funded team. Massive amounts of money was thrown in by Honda for the development of the 2009 car.
 
So yeah, 2009 is not going to happen again, because we have just 3.5 well-funded teams. Three of them already are at the front and have been for a while and that 0.5 is Renault...

And what of McLaren? They were paying a driver $40m per season... were they not well funded?

Still, nobody expected Honda to be successful in 2009. And throwing money at something is no guarantee of success- see Jaguar, Toyota, BMW.... or McLaren and Honda in recent seasons.

And what of McLaren? They were paying a driver $40m per season... were they not well funded?

Still, nobody expected Honda to be successful in 2009. And throwing money at something is no guarantee of success- see Jaguar, Toyota, BMW.... or McLaren and Honda in recent seasons.

 

It's not about expectations, it's about money. Money doesn't guarantee success, but without money it's impossible to win.

 

As for McLaren. They are better off than half of the field, but no match to the top three after they lost Honda's 100M, and more.

It's not about expectations, it's about money. Money doesn't guarantee success, but without money it's impossible to win.
 
As for McLaren. They are better off than half of the field, but no match to the top three after they lost Honda's 100M, and more.

Yet when they had the Honda money they were still nowhere. I agree no money= no success, but that has always been the case with F1. Even back in the 90s Williams, McLaren and Ferrari were spending $70m+ per season, whilst the likes of Minardi, Lotus, etc were running closer to $10m at most. Over a six year period two teams shared out 77% of the victories, and one of those over 50%. From the late 80's to the mid-90s only four teams won a race, and you could pretty much stretch that to a full decade as all that broke it were fortuitous wins for Ligier and Jordan. And that was in the days when unreliability was a thing among the front runners. Current spending is ridiculous, but that was kicked off by Red Bull who ignored the RRA.

OP, did you just read the sensationalistic headlines? I know Autosport.com cheekily titled it ‘Wolff thinks even Williams could beat us”, but what he actually said doesn’t sound anything like that at all:

I assume this thread was more created out of how Wolff has been dealing with this stuff in the last 5 years and most of the time it is like the OP portrayed it (comical, especially when they were dominating in 2014-16), although I agree with you that those who are enraged about a team boss outlining that you never know what can happen next year (fair imo) appear to not have enough issues in their lifes.

Edited by Marklar, 09 December 2018 - 12:16.

Yet when they had the Honda money they were still nowhere. I agree no money= no success, but that has always been the case with F1. Even back in the 90s Williams, McLaren and Ferrari were spending $70m+ per season, whilst the likes of Minardi, Lotus, etc were running closer to $10m at most. Over a six year period two teams shared out 77% of the victories, and one of those over 50%. From the late 80's to the mid-90s only four teams won a race, and you could pretty much stretch that to a full decade as all that broke it were fortuitous wins for Ligier and Jordan. And that was in the days when unreliability was a thing among the front runners. Current spending is ridiculous, but that was kicked off by Red Bull who ignored the RRA.

Agree with most, absolutely, but I have very fond memories of the ‘97-season for instance. It was so close that year, and even if Prost, Jordan and Stewart didn’t win a race, their performance in qualifying was so good that a part of you always believed they could cause an upset the day after, and atleast finish on the podium.
Now, with Haas qualifying seventh, you just know they are never going to finish on the podium. You know.

Edited by MortenF1, 09 December 2018 - 14:18.

Agree with most, absolutely, but I have very fond memories of the ‘97-season for instance. It was so close that year, and even if Prost, Jordan and Stewart didn’t win a race, their performance in qualifying was so good that a part of you always believed they could cause an upset the day after, and atleast finish on the podium.
Now, with Haas qualifying seventh, you just know they are never going to finish on the podium. You know.

Introduction of a tire war with none of the top-4 dominating teams using one of the brands. Came 1998 they were 2 apiece with each tire supplier and domination was restored.

Introduction of a tire war with none of the top-4 dominating teams using one of the brands. Came 1998 they were 2 apiece with each tire supplier and domination was restored.

Due to the new rules yes, going to narrower cars.

LOL @ 'trouncing'.

 

So it's not possible for Lewis to be beaten in the same car? By anyone? Lewis is invincible then I guess, and Alonso must be the ultimate yardstick...

Okay maybe not trounced..How about tonked?

I don't think he purposely downplays things, he's just somewhat of a pessimist (or maybe a realist). Being cocky and overconfident nearly always backfires on you. 

 

Pretty sure he does it on purpose, it is a very effective and very old way of running a business (to worry and fear their people so they will be motivated to work harder, and to try to always avoid them to rest on their laurels)

Edited by NixxxoN, 09 December 2018 - 17:52.

People forget that the winning car of Brawn was actually designed by a well-funded team. Massive amounts of money was thrown in by Honda for the development of the 2009 car.

So yeah, 2009 is not going to happen again, because we have just 3.5 well-funded teams. Three of them already are at the front and have been for a while and that 0.5 is Renault...

I’ve heard it called the most expensive car of all time, as the Honda brackley, Super Aguri and Honda HQ teams all worked on it simultaneously

I’ve heard it called the most expensive car of all time, as the Honda brackley, Super Aguri and Honda HQ teams all worked on it simultaneously

Why did Honda can the project after all that work?

Why did Honda can the project after all that work?

 

I think it coincided with the GFC and probably a loss of confidence.

 

There is also an element of how competitive it would have been with the Honda engine. That Mercedes power plant was a gem. 

Why did Honda can the project after all that work?

That fall was the start of the worldwide economic crisis remember....

The dominant team bosses/drivers inventing imaginary troubles does annoy me to no end. And no, it's not just Wolff as it was the same with Horner, Vettel and Red Bull whose car was on the verge of breaking seemingly every race of '11 and '13.

I get the political motivation of talking bull**** like that but I still would find it more gentlemanlike if they said things as they are. Unlike some here claim it's not a 2 way choice between boasting lunatically or saying you may get crushed by Williams.

 

Ricciardo does not agree. Newey cars are always a bit on the unreliable side of things.

 

And what of McLaren? They were paying a driver $40m per season... were they not well funded?

Still, nobody expected Honda to be successful in 2009. And throwing money at something is no guarantee of success- see Jaguar, Toyota, BMW.... or McLaren and Honda in recent seasons.

 

Were well funded... they burn through money now.

More than enough people have a meltdown over whatever Wolff says; this will like a red rag to them.


Probably not as many times as such exaggerations in the OP.

 

I still remember the Ferrari thread in 2017 where the Tifosi were demanding that Toto and Lewis be forced to "tell the truth" regarding the performance of the Mercedes that year, rather than underplaying it and getting the Ferrari fans hopes up.

In fact, I remember quite a few suggesting that they both be penalized for lying. 
 

They tried really hard to give Ferrari a chance and not dominate too much.  Already laying the ground work to do the same again next year 

BS.

I bet you believe in sandbagging too eh?

Why the heck would you give your adversary a head start?

 

Out of interest was you around 1988 when McLaren almost whitewashed the manufacturers championship?

Edited by Fatgadget, 10 December 2018 - 11:45.

I still remember the Ferrari thread in 2017 where the Tifosi were demanding that Toto and Lewis be forced to "tell the truth" regarding the performance of the Mercedes that year, rather than underplaying it and getting the Ferrari fans hopes up.

In fact, I remember quite a few suggesting that they both be penalized for lying. 
 

Ah!

Them the days eh!.....Even 10 years  earlier lol!

Agree with most, absolutely, but I have very fond memories of the ‘97-season for instance. It was so close that year, and even if Prost, Jordan and Stewart didn’t win a race, their performance in qualifying was so good that a part of you always believed they could cause an upset the day after, and atleast finish on the podium.
Now, with Haas qualifying seventh, you just know they are never going to finish on the podium. You know.

But you neglect to point out how quickly the likes of an upstart that is HAAS has now eclipsed seasoned campaigners the likes of Mclaren and Williams and Minardi and Sauber..

Twitter needs an @fakeTotoWolff account to poor mouth Mercedes performance through another 10 win season.

I'm honestly quite amused people have an issue with Toto and his modest claims. Sounds like sour grapes really.

Compared to horner who is as smarmy as they come or Cyril the scorned lover acting like a teenage girl he seems like a great TP.

Tbh I'm not entirely comfortable with a lot of posts on this thread.  We would all do well to remember that people in motorsport do actually read the forums from time to time and there's a lot of needless character assassination in here. Personally I think Toto Wolff comes across well in the media.  Is there gamesmanship from time to time?  Yes of course, it's part of his job.  That's still no excuse for people attacking his personality. 

Edited by stairpotato, 11 December 2018 - 02:42.

The Sandbagging Toto meme took on extraordinary proportions over the last 2-3 years, but claiming Williams could beat Merc is taking the biscuit!!

 

Suspect no one thought Brawn would amount to much in 09 either. 

 

He is saying with the rule changes there is a chance for anyone to get it right and move to the front, and he obviously worries as they head of one of the best teams in the world that it might not be them. 

 

Storm in a tea-cup.

Tbh I'm not entirely comfortable with a lot of posts on this thread.  We would all do well to remember that people in motorsport do actually read the forums from time to time and there's a lot of needless character assassination in here. Personally I think Toto Wolff comes across well in the media.  Is there gamesmanship from time to time?  Yes of course, it's part of his job.  That's still no excuse for people attacking his personality. 

Good job you wasn't around during the brutal Atlas days then!

I'm not entirely comfortable with a lot of posts on this thread.  We would all do well to remember that people in motorsport do actually read the forums from time to time and there's a lot of needless character assassination in here.

 

Well, any mean posts are not deliberate but merely the result of incompetent posting.

 

That seemed to be a distinction he had no problems with when he took aim at Räikkönen's character.

If you dominate something no one cares about anymore, it's not good for strategic corporate objectives. It may seem funny to many of us, but the whole, almost scripted drama, played by Totto but also Hamilton, may even be part of some corporate guideline on how to behave when there's no or little competition, in order to preserve the status quo as long as possible.  

It’s just comical at this point, everyone knows he’s a bit full if ****.

It’s just comical at this point, everyone knows he’s a bit full if ****.

Yeah... but maybe read all that the said, and not selective headlines and the dumb outrage and oddball theories on here.

He can only look after his own team. That the others aren't winning has zip all to do with what he says. I know it's a launchpad for fan angst but that's even more boxing at shadows than Toto's paranoia.

I don’t think much about it, he’s simply stating they have not been hitting their targets... it depends on how far ahead they’re respective targets are to the rest. He does seem paranoid about having to claw back everything and hit the same lap times or faster.. no way of knowing until race 1 who hit the right target...

with Redbull out now as a complete unknown they have only
Ferrari and frankly, I would think after their huge engine push they made it’s hard to imagine they have a lot of headroom left to make progress over winter on that front and how badly Ferrari got their track developments during the last 2nd half I think

Mercedes will come out of the gate ahead and Ferrari will catch up but it may be too late by then. For me, I think Renault will gain hP so if McLaren honestly know what went wrong and honestly know where to fix then they could be the dark horse and replace RB for the thorn in their side comparing occasionally with RB having 1 or 2 good races on odd tracks.

Edited by Paco, 11 December 2018 - 17:10.

I'm honestly quite amused people have an issue with Toto and his modest claims. Sounds like sour grapes really.
Compared to horner who is as smarmy as they come or Cyril the scorned lover acting like a teenage girl he seems like a great TP.

In all fairness, poor-mouthing one’s own team was a common trait among American football coaches a couple of decades ago, so there is a precendent. Lou Holtz used to act like Notre Dame was unlikely to ever win another game while they were on their way to winning a collegiate National Championship when he was their head coach.

In all fairness, poor-mouthing one’s own team was a common trait among American football coaches a couple of decades ago, so there is a precendent. Lou Holtz used to act like Notre Dame was unlikely to ever win another game while they were on their way to winning a collegiate National Championship when he was their head coach.

Hardly poor-mouthing what Toto is saying is it?..Would you rather he come up with what Ron Dennis said about the Honda jewel engine?

To me Wolff always seems to doubt the team and himself for some reason. Something that runs through the whole team. Look at Shovlin, James and Bottas for example. The only guy who truly has that inner self-belief is Lewis Hamilton.

To me Wolff always seems to doubt the team and himself for some reason. Something that runs through the whole team. Look at Shovlin, James and Bottas for example. The only guy who truly has that inner self-belief is Lewis Hamilton.

Sure. Toto doesn’t doubt the team, just knows you can’t sit back if you want to stay on top. Just like Lewis knows he needs to be focussed and stay at the top of his game, despite having 5 WDC under his belt. Don’t make it look like Lewis is lifting Mercedes to another level. It works both ways.

Hamilton is wary that his opposition could be even stronger next year as Sauber's promising rookie Charles Leclerc moves to Ferrari and Max Verstappen's Red Bull team joins forces with Honda. He said he would look to improve his own performance by reviewing his 2018 season with his engineers, especially his form at the first three races when he failed to score a victory.

"We will definitely look at the season at the end of the year and there are always areas you look at," Hamilton said. "We didn't win every single race, there were some mishaps at the beginning of the year and there is always room to improve. So I expect to do that and that's my expectation in myself. I have got to work to do over this winter and there will be a slightly amended approach.

Of course, you have to dig deep because you have these young kids that are coming. Leclerc at Ferrari will be hungry to prove a point and you've got Max who is still hungry to prove a point, so I have to make sure I am still there at the top of my game”

Edited by Ivanhoe, 11 December 2018 - 20:53.

Sure.
 

 

Nice quote, that only supports my argument. Not wanting to improve yourself would be idiotic and that's the reason why he is very confident in himself and a racing legend.

Nice quote, that only supports my argument. Not wanting to improve yourself would be idiotic and that's the reason why he is very confident in himself and a racing legend.

I edited my post, Toto and Lewis are doing the same thing.

Cue to video of Wolff slamming into a desk in the pitbox. Every Race Again. I tend to believe they edit those in in the live footage.

But I don't believe a word he says. Remember Brazil? How Hamiltons engine was near death? Yet it won the next race without missing a beat. That drama has defiled Mercedes performance.

That Engine was genuinely in trouble in Brazil. A small component failure on the left plenum leading to very high PU temperatures.

It was serviced between races and re-introduced into the pool as Plan A.

I think you are acting like toto always lies but your opinion is warped from mercedes excellemt performance in 2018

i believe toto when he says theyve had set backs but im encouraged that it seems to be against ambitious targets, needed after ferraris monster

Edited by w1Y, 11 December 2018 - 21:13.

I think you are acting like toto always lies but your opinion is warped from mercedes excellemt performance in 2018

i believe toto when he says theyve had set backs but im encouraged that it seems to be against ambitious targets, needed after ferraris monster

I think it’s more Toto knows they stole one this year from Ferrari and that they weren’t as good as they have been, perhaps being conservative isn’t no longer an option. THey easily could have lost the WCC had it not been for Ferrari new floor introduction slowing them and Seb skid in the wet. It could have been very different outcome for them and he fully knows it. Their huge PU advantage is gone and so is their comfort level.. he and everyone there knows Lewis will make a mistake or 2 and can’t be counted again for a flawless run.. or reliability they have have gotten away with well this year.. can’t count on that again next year. Even though the point say otherwise, it was pretty touch n go for a lot of the season. The gravy train is over and they are going to need to better then they have been to stay ahead. I don’t think they were excellent, they just didn’t mess up all they way through, kept it together and got good points at bad weekends and took advantage of opportunities?. Not exactly what they needed in the past.. awesome no less but it’s not a sec advantage anymore.

I fully get his concern the F1 aero revamp leading to a clever solution by any of the Mercedes customers or even any of the Ferrari guys nailing a cool solution and leap frogging a chunk of the grid. They want to stay ahead but know it’s getting and harder with a potentially stronger Honda, strong Renault and maybe even ahead Ferrari Pu.

Edited by Paco, 11 December 2018 - 22:02.

I'm honestly quite amused people have an issue with Toto and his modest claims. Sounds like sour grapes really.

Compared to horner who is as smarmy as they come or Cyril the scorned lover acting like a teenage girl he seems like a great TP.

 

Indeed. Or even Marko, who blatantly claimed conspiracy after Verstappen collided with Ocon in Brazil. But yea, this is far more grievous...

Edited by thedrivinggod, 12 December 2018 - 01:53.

Indeed. Or even Marko, who blatantly claimed conspiracy after Verstappen collided with Ocon in Brazil. But yea, this is far more grievous...

 

You mean like Wolff did after Silverstone? http://classic.autos....php/id/137288/

What Toto is doing is the opposite of resting on his laurels. He's somewhere between a realist and a pessimist....he's not going to assume that everything is going great. He knows the team needs to keep pushing if it's to remain as successful as it has been....2018 did see Ferrari get awfully close in terms of car performance and at times RBR were too. The days of utter crushing dominance are over. And with rule changes ahead, Mercedes need to work to keep on top of their game. 

Jeebus what a palaver over a harmless throwaway comment where the point was merely that with a regulation change someone, including potentially a back marker, could come up with an idea exploiting a loophole in the reg that could give a big performance gain.

speaking of Toto:

 

Wolff: Hamilton couldn't beat Vettel without Bottas

 

speaking of Toto:

 

Wolff: Hamilton couldn't beat Vettel without Bottas

 

 

 

 

He is talking about the WCC isn't it?, the headline is crap.

 

 

"We wouldn't have won the drivers' championship and the constructors' championship without Valtteri," he said.

Unlikely, hence the and. We don't know what happens behind the scenes in terms of input, but this seems more like Wolff giving Bottas a much needed boost than a shocking revelation. Sure, the WCC needs two good scorers. We get that, and Bottas helping Hamilton gained the latter a number of points - but nowhere near the margin he had when he collected the title multiple races before the end of the season.

The guy is tryouts no to prop and down n out driver.. he knows he need some Bottas in a better head space or else they could be in a tough spot... Hamilton prob wants that as well to keep Ferrari guys from taking too many 1st place wins. All good, just a morale boast is all.