Honda or Renault. Which engine has been better this season?

They also pay a severance/reputation fee that is rumoured to be 20m/year up until 2022 or so.

Nothing to do with the chassis its bolted into them?

Evidence is hard to find as we will never get raw HP numbers.

But the jump of both Mclaren and Renault in the speed traps likely is not coincedence. RB admitted they designed an aero efficient chassis initially because they expected a bit less HP from Honda. But even with that aero efficient chassis, they were a bit behind the Mclaren en Renault in most speed traps.

Based on qualifying speed traps, it looks to me like Renault has found some really strong peak HP. For the races it's much harder to really understand as there are too many variables for us casual viewers to digest.

Speed traps mean absolutely nothing. They are first and foremost a function of rear wing levels. Merc is usually very low on the speed trap, yet they and RBR destroy the mighty Reno and Woking around a lap.

It’s an engine formula. More power allows the team to add more downforce.

Edited by Clatter, 18 August 2019 - 12:34.

It’s an engine formula. More power allows the team to add more downforce.

F1 is about getting that power and applying it to the track, if the chassis sucks they could bolt on a Saturn 5 and it would still suck.  Williams & Racing Spot both have a Mercedes lump attached to a bad chassis/aero and it shows by how poor they are.  Haas has the Ferrari lump and they are nowhere with their chassis/aero not working the tyres etc.  Hell even Ferrari has the Ferrari lump and are getting beaten quite often by weaker engines, why?  Perhaps the chassis/aero is more important than you give it credit for.

tldr; F1 is a Chassis/Aero/Engine/Tyre Temp formula.

Mclaren and Renault chassis are definitely not more aero efficient than Redbull chassis. When you look at the overall picture of speed traps on different tracks in different downforce configurations, it is clear that the Renault powered cars are always at the upper end of the spectrum. Speeds traps are not the be all and end all indicators of brute power but when there is a consistent pattern over 12 races they do count. In terms of efficiency and power Renault definitely has the edge, the reliability is debatable.

Edited by Quickshifter, 18 August 2019 - 16:08.

What do you mean with efficiency?

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.

Edited by Quickshifter, 18 August 2019 - 16:06.

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.

the reliability is debatable.

What..?

What..?

Edited by BJHF1, 18 August 2019 - 19:33.

I'd vote Verstappen, but he wasn't in the pole.

I lol'd ,but its true.

Should have been in the poll.

The guy must have a broken back with all that carrying around he has to go through 

TR has a podium. No other non-works team does. Heck, besides that same race with Stroll's result, no other team besides Toro Rosso even scored a 4th place. The fact Red Bull Honda has 2 wins and Ferrari has 0 should we even be asking if Renault is the better engine and start putting Honda up there with Merc and Ferrari? If were going by results it just might. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out, two big-time power tracks are coming and we'll find out the Honda power.

I think the fact that before Austria, RBR and Honda both publicly admitted that Renault look slightly ahead in qualifying says it all. But they also state they know they are ahead in race trim, Honda can run the engine in a higher base mode and push it further during the race than Renault can. Let's also mention Honda have introduced two upgrades so far, to Renault's one and yet Honda have utilised less components than Renault... There have been no on-track failures for Honda, at all, and this year they could actually lay claim to being one of the most reliable.

Personally, I'd rather the reliable engine, that sacrifices a small amount of power in qualifying (if that is even the case anymore, Honda have turned it up significantly recently), is more powerful during the race, is obviously efficient (they run hard all race, even turning the modes up towards the end), has a sharp development curve, probably the best on the field, have an upcoming significant upgrade, and potentially a final one before the year is out and an invested manufacturer all to myself.

Genuinely cannot really see why you'd choose Renault at the moment. They would add too many question marks.
 

Edited by Ackhernar, 19 August 2019 - 01:39.

I lol'd ,but its true.
Should have been in the poll.

The guy must have a broken back with all that carrying around he has to go through

Has it ever been confirmed that Ilmore is helping Honda? I’ve heard this said several times, but I’ve never seen official confirmation, despite numerous searches - can you share the link where you saw it? I’d like to read it. Thanks!!

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

This might be of interest (in Dutch): https://www.gptoday....a-motor-ontleed

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

Both convergence and an increase in budget for both companies I believe, Honda more than Renault.

Also its worth remembering that Honda established a team from scratch in 2014, it took them quite a while (which is normal) to optimise the structure, get rid of the dead weights and integrate it with the rest of the company so the relevant expertise from the other parts could be used.  The other teams have been designing and manufacturing engines continually for a minimum of two decades so have not had to go through this step.

Inevitably the longer we have the formula the more background expertise there is in the supply chain to provide better components for the PU so even the least competitive manufacturers will get a trickle down boost in performance indirectly from Mercedes and Ferrari via this route.

Edited by Talisman, 20 August 2019 - 21:02.

Power unit overall efficiency [ ICE+ERS]. An efficient PU would allow you to carry relatively less fuel to complete race distance or on the flip side allow you to run more aggressively with the same fuel load.

How do you know the relative fuel loads of the Honda powered cars vs the Renault powered ones?  And how would your 'theory' account for Renault and McLaren running considerably closer to RBR in quali than the race?

Personally I think the McLaren in particular is much better than the rubbish chassis flattered by a wonderful engine you claim it to be.

Edited by Talisman, 20 August 2019 - 21:05.

yes I have to say I’ve always found that one a little strange. It’s not as if they couldn’t demonstrate that Honda had severely underperformed so I’m very surprised McLaren had to pay anything

Firstly I don't believe there was a performance clause in the contract, or if there was Honda didn't trigger it in 2017.

Secondly Honda was unwilling to drop the contract and if they had dug their heels in even by a few weeks then switching to Renault for 2018 would have been impossible for McLaren (the contract severence and new deal with Renault were signed extremely late in the day as it was).  The annual compensation McLaren pays Honda was the price of getting them to comply with Woking's wishes and enabling the switch.  Apparently they made a small payment to STR too and RBR cutting Sainz loose to Renault was intended to get the French to comply with the switch as well.

TR has a podium. No other non-works team does. Heck, besides that same race with Stroll's result, no other team besides Toro Rosso even scored a 4th place. The fact Red Bull Honda has 2 wins and Ferrari has 0 should we even be asking if Renault is the better engine and start putting Honda up there with Merc and Ferrari? If were going by results it just might. Lets see how the rest of the season plays out, two big-time power tracks are coming and we'll find out the Honda power.

Give the nature of their collaboration I would suggest Red Bull are a works team in all but name

Firstly I don't believe there was a performance clause in the contract, or if there was Honda didn't trigger it in 2017.

 

Secondly Honda was unwilling to drop the contract and if they had dug their heels in even by a few weeks then switching to Renault for 2018 would have been impossible for McLaren (the contract severence and new deal with Renault were signed extremely late in the day as it was).  The annual compensation McLaren pays Honda was the price of getting them to comply with Woking's wishes and enabling the switch.  Apparently they made a small payment to STR too and RBR cutting Sainz loose to Renault was intended to get the French to comply with the switch as well.

Even if there wasn't, which again would surprise me as I should have thought ti would be fairly standard, the fact that Honda themselves admitted they weren't up to par after several years should surely have given some legal ammunition to McLaren to dissolve the partnership due to under-performance.  Not saying it's impossible but it raises question marks for me

Even if there wasn't, which again would surprise me as I should have thought ti would be fairly standard, the fact that Honda themselves admitted they weren't up to par after several years should surely have given some legal ammunition to McLaren to dissolve the partnership due to under-performance.  Not saying it's impossible but it raises question marks for me

You've sort of answered the question yourself.

McLaren wanted to have a non-Honda in the back of their car for 2018 but made this decision pretty late, delayed further by their initial preferred partner Mercedes giving them the run around before declining.  Honda didn't initially want to split and opposed it.  If McLaren had gone to court over their contract with Honda it would have been the worst case scenario for both companies.  The process would have dragged on long enough for McLaren to be forced to stick with Honda for 2018 as it would have been too late to either redesign the car (and for STR too) or have any other supplier be willing to switch supply at late notice.  Then McLaren and Honda would have been forced to work with each other through 2018 long after it was clear that neither wanted to carry on but were only doing so until the divorce could be settled legally.

Edited by Talisman, 20 August 2019 - 21:31.

Give the nature of their collaboration I would suggest Red Bull are a works team in all but name

No suggest there. Red Bull Honda are a works team.

A bit off topic perhaps: but why have both Renault and Honda suddenly found the answer to their performance woes in the earlier years?

 

Is it a matter of all manufacturers converging on the same technology and Mercedes /  Ferrari finally running into the law of dimishing returns? Or? 

 

A bit of a technical analysis / background would be super interesting to understand what is actually happening behind the scenes...

Both teams enlisted help from Ilmor.  Renault after their miserable start, and Honda after Mclaren fired them.  There were also rumors that Honda ultimately accepted Mercedes' help as well after the breakup.

Both teams enlisted help from Ilmor.  Renault after their miserable start, and Honda after Mclaren fired them.  There were also rumors that Honda ultimately accepted Mercedes' help as well after the breakup.

That's nonsense. This was a rumour from back at the end of 2016 as well. That Mercedes were giving Honda assistance, there was never an actual technical advisory team between the two at all. Ilmor is not currently involved with the current project either. He was contacted for an advisory role in 2017 (McLaren stipulation), but this was terminated anyway.

The Honda PU saw significant changes the moment they were split from McLaren, STR gave the Honda engineers more space for components, this was mentioned by several Honda staff, on the RA618H, note the enlarged exhaust manifold tubing and the fact they protrude further out than the RA617H and the intake piping is far less severe in angle change and less "squashed". This netted a power increase at the expense of space utilised and a small weight penalty.

There really was no performance clause in the contract, that much is certain, hence the substantial fees McLaren pay to Honda for terminating the contract. There was just simply no way the two companies would have an acceptable working contract after the nightmare they both went to, right down to the admin staff level.. It got pretty nasty towards the end. They are both doing better going their separate ways.

It's not nonsense.  It was widely reported.  Just Google it.  

Actually Honda had hired Ilmor before the actual split, but it was too late by then to save the relationship, even though they were already seeing improvement.

It's not nonsense.  It was widely reported.  Just Google it.  

 

Actually Honda had hired Ilmor before the actual split, but it was too late by then to save the relationship, even though they were already seeing improvement.

What you were originally implying is nonsense, that Ilmor was the reason for Honda's gains, Ilmor never got to the stage of providing any substantial input.

But now you're saying pretty much what I said... He was approached for an advisory role at McLaren's request with Honda but it ultimately never eventuated as the two split...

What was "widely reported" was rumours and as mentioned, it only got as far as initial contact. Just like the rumours that were "reported on" more and more that Honda had enlisted the help of AVL and their chassis dyno's. Got to the point Honda themselves actually categorically denied there was ever any relationship to start with.

Honda have not become the champion yet, if they were to become one time champion, then the sure shall aim the second or the third in this formula.

Getting help from Elmore or anybody to become a serious contender is not such a big thing, as to climb the last stem and being there for many years cost Honda as much ro even more efforts.

At the moment none is the champion, so if it were the driver's standards it does not really matter what is what. Just apple or pear...

No, I am in fact saying that Ilmor is largely responsible for Honda’s improvement. To think otherwise is silly, imo.

But I see that as a compliment to Honda that they were willing to change and learn, just as Renault were.

You're doing a disservice to the hard work that Honda did mostly themselves. One guy or his little team are not responsible for their improvements. Honda's team is. Where's this Ilmor at now? I don't see anything from Honda saying they had outside help aside from their own hiring practices. 

No, I am in fact saying that Ilmor is largely responsible for Honda’s improvement. To think otherwise is silly, imo.

But I see that as a compliment to Honda that they were willing to change and learn, just as Renault were.

Ilmor has had little to do with Honda’s improvement.

It’s money. McLaren’s money to be specific. Also that Honda’s project is much better organised than before.

Honda has been working with external consultants and partners from day 1. McLaren designed and supplied parts of the MGUH and procured the battery packs for example. IHI for the turbo. Gilles Simon for the overall concept. The idea that Honda has changed to start working with external consultants as a result of the split is laughable.

Incidentally I find this idea that projects in F1 can be made or broken by one person quite funny.  As if Newey on his own pens the Red Bulls and the rest of the large design team doesn't count.  Or how Ilmor can walk into a PU company and turn it around singlehandedly.  The real world is a lot more complicated than that.

Edited by Talisman, 22 August 2019 - 07:55.

Edited by pup, 22 August 2019 - 13:45.

That sort of head in the sand purity filter from Honda fans is exactly what made the McLaren thread so unbearable for three years.

Honda floundered for three years and then immediately when Ilmor was hired they began to improve. That’s not a coincidence.

If you’re looking for a press release from Honda thanking Ilmor for helping them then good luck. But their involvement was confirmed by Marko (of course, who else?) when he blabbed early this year that Ilmor had finished their work.

By the way, Honda also got help from AVL last year.

source please 

Edited by Ivanhoe, 22 August 2019 - 14:13.

Edited by A3, 22 August 2019 - 15:03.

That sort of head in the sand purity filter from Honda fans is exactly what made the McLaren thread so unbearable for three years.

Honda floundered for three years and then immediately when Ilmor was hired they began to improve. That’s not a coincidence.

If you’re looking for a press release from Honda thanking Ilmor for helping them then good luck. But their involvement was confirmed by Marko (of course, who else?) when he blabbed early this year that Ilmor had finished their work.

By the way, Honda also got help from AVL last year.

You might be very right, but right now it is just a random opinion from a random guy behind a keyboard.

Provide us some credible sources rather than just claims that only you seem to know in detail. 

AVL is a dyno/simulator producer. How did they help Honda?

Btw, Honda deny that they have worked with AVL.

You might be very right, but right now it is just a random opinion from a random guy behind a keyboard.

 

Provide us some credible sources rather than just claims that only you seem to know in detail. 

Everyone on this forum is a random guy/girl on a keyboard.

Among others: https://www.f1-fansi...ouble-at-honda/

 

 

Red Bull's Marko confirmed the split, and also that Honda and ex-Mercedes engine chief Mario Illien are also no longer working together.

RB also announced that Ilmor was helping Renault, so no surprise that they're careless with Honda's secrets.  Honda also never denied working with Ilmor - just gave a generic no comment.  And they've never been shy about denying things (see AVL).

What I've never understood is why anyone cares if Honda gets outside help.  Every team and manufacturer does.  In my case, someone asked why the improved and I answered, only to get swarmed by Honda fans who detected an impurity.

About Ilmor working with Honda previously, I alway thought those rumors were odd, in that they all said that Illien was working with McLaren, not Honda.  Seems unlikely that McLaren would be hiring people to work on Honda's engine, or that Honda would come close to allowing that.  More likely that Illien was working with McLaren on their road or GT engines, IMO.

Believe what you want.

No, I am in fact saying that Ilmor is largely responsible for Honda’s improvement. To think otherwise is silly, imo.

But I see that as a compliment to Honda that they were willing to change and learn, just as Renault were.

Everyone on this forum is a random guy/girl on a keyboard.

Among others: https://www.f1-fansi...ouble-at-honda/


RB also announced that Ilmor was helping Renault, so no surprise that they're careless with Honda's secrets. Honda also never denied working with Ilmor - just gave a generic no comment. And they've never been shy about denying things (see AVL).

What I've never understood is why anyone cares if Honda gets outside help. Every team and manufacturer does. In my case, someone asked why the improved and I answered, only to get swarmed by Honda fans who detected an impurity.

About Ilmor working with Honda previously, I alway thought those rumors were odd, in that they all said that Illien was working with McLaren, not Honda. Seems unlikely that McLaren would be hiring people to work on Honda's engine, or that Honda would come close to allowing that. More likely that Illien was working with McLaren on their road or GT engines, IMO.

Everyone on this forum is a random guy/girl on a keyboard.
 
Among others: https://www.f1-fansi...ouble-at-honda/

Honda has denied recent reports that its engine development for 2019 has hit trouble. It was suggested in German media last week that a disagreement with consultancy firm AVL had slowed work on next year's machinery, but Honda say a contract with the Austrian company was never entered into.

Autobild claimed that the issue had been confirmed by Red Bull motorsport advisor Dr Helmut Marko, but Honda have put forward another side to the story.
....
However, a Honda spokesperson told Auto Sport Web: "It is not a fact that we cancelled our partner contract with AVL because we have not signed a partner agreement with AVL in the first place.
"It is true that Honda was talking to work together with AVL, but there is a gap between what Honda is seeking and what they can do and we have not concluded. There must have been a misunderstanding."

Edited by A3, 23 August 2019 - 06:45.

1 aug 2019 My question to a Honda spokesman.

Ted Kravitz sais something strange during the weekend.
What is your opinion on this?

Ted: “First of all my compliments to Honda: Top done! Two cars with Honda engines on the podium: phenomenal work! I can tell you that one of the reasons Honda is gaining so much ground is one man: Mario Illien. The genius behind Ilmor, who was responsible for the Mercedes engines that were in the back of the McLarens! ”

“The same Mario Illien is now working on the engine with Honda. That is why Honda has been moving so fast lately, because the genius is behind the scenes. "

His answer was: "Not true at all."

Edited by WouterF1, 23 August 2019 - 07:32.

Honda have always been jealous of their image, like most Japanese companies. They do not admit weakness and they will protect at all costs any knowledge of outsourcing of expertise. Many times in their history they have taken their own stubborn road and it didn't work out so good until they learned to listen to others. I would suggest there has to be an outside influence that accelerated the performance and reliability of the hybrid GP engine adventure - the 100% in-house development of which was such a disaster and embarrassment for so long. We may never know, certainly not for some period of time. Doubt it's Illien.

Everyone in pitlane was talking horsepower deficits of 60 horsepower and reliability to match it at the beginning of the year and suddenly the RedBull connection produces near parity. It looks like it might be down to less than 20 at the moment. Lets not forget Renault have also made good gains since solving the mechanical flaw, was it around Spanish GP it came good? I believe those who are saying it's near parity with MB who are "the benchmark" not necessarily the pinnacle (Ferrari). 

If Renault have uncorked another 10 - 15 horsepower for Spa they could sneak ahead of MB in out and out HP equivalence and surely a significant advantage over Honda. 

Edited by Talisman, 23 August 2019 - 11:54.