46 replies to this topic

[jc_nl]

At one time the F1 rules allowed 750 cc supercharged engines, they were not used very often. Someone in an other forum asked which car with an enigine like that actualy drove in a race weekend.

The only thing I have been able to find so far, thanks to a small hint, is that it probably drove in the non-championship race at Syracuse in 1955.

Does anyone know which car this is?
Or does anyone have more information about cars with this type of engine?

[Felix Muelas]

Mmmh...how tempting!

Who will do the honours?

;-)
Felix

[jc_nl]

If you have some books it probably is not such a dificult question. But I am just a poor student (I am thinking of starting the "Help Johan trough the winter fundation", if anyone want to donate money please do so) so I don't have a lot of F1 books

[John Cross]

OK Felix, since I'm here...

You are probably thinking of the DB-Panhard which ran in the 1955 Pau GP driven by Claude Storez and Paul Armagnac. Had the circuit been flat they might have stood a quarter of a chance, but the steep hills proved too much. They never ran again as far as I know.

It had a supercharged 746cc Panhard engine giving 85 bhp driving the front wheels. It only weighed 350 kg (versus 180 bhp and 600 kg of most of the other cars). Definitely a 'motor racing maverick'!

[Felix Muelas]

JC

No, it is not a difficult question, my comment was an ironic one, because dealing with the 750s/c F1s is one of those questions that I am sure many of us are willing to...

The details will come later, but in order that you can sleep better tonight, the raw data is as follows :

DB (Deutsch & Bonnet), Pau 1955, Claude Storez and Paul Armagnac. Apart from entering into the group you mention
it also has the honour of actually being the only front-wheel drive postwar car.

Giaur. Bernardo Taraschi drove the "thing" in the Gran Premio di Roma at Castelfusano in June 1954.

More to follow...

Felix

[Marcel Schot]

Although not a Grand Prix and not Formula One, I believe the 1957 Lotus 11 Climax driven by Cliff Allison and Keith Hall in the Le Mans 24 Hours was powered by a 750cc Climax FWC unit.

(ok, way slow and way of the mark...I should really not thread on turf which is not naturally mine )

[Felix Muelas]

John !

Well, yes, I was thinking about you actually...

We were writing at the same time, but please, take over...

:-)

[Felix Muelas]

Marcel !
(What a danger!)

Yes, you are absolutely right. And they won the 750 class, by finishing 14th...from nothing else than a couple of DB Panhards! (Cornet-Perrier and Chancel-Hemard)with the 750 Osca of Laroche and Radix finished fourth in the class...

Felix

[jc_nl]

Thanks for reacting so fast guys, but why does no one want to make a donation to my fund????????????

If any of you know a web site where I can find info please tell me, I want to find out more about these things but with no books I have to find everything on the web and things as this are not easy to find (or I have been looking at the wrong places)

[Hans Etzrodt]

jc,
I was just lurking in the background but got the impression that John, Felix and Marcel answered your original question.

[John Cross]

jc,

Since you have asked so nicely, here is what Doug Nye has to say about the project in his book Motor Racing Mavericks. He actually expands on this in History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-1965 but that is an awkward book to scan! Here is a picture of the F1 car:



Just for comparison, here is Rene Bonnet himself in a 500cc DB at Rouen in 1952. Amazingly, he finished 2nd to John Cooper:



Anyway, here is the story (it's from the aircooled chapter):

France also had its air-cooled race engine adherents during this period, with Charles Deutsch and René Bonnet being the most notable. They began building specials together in 1948 and after experimenting with all kinds of available power units they decided that the air-cooled Panhard flat-twin engine with its associated front-wheel drive transmission was the best for their requirements.

So they established a small business, building, selling and racing small sports cars under the name DB-Panhard. The cars proved very successful in their class, and when their handicapping was favourable they were capable of winning such major events as the 1954 RAC Tourist Trophy, in which Gerard Laureau and Paul Armagnac brought their streamlined DB-Panhard home ahead of Ferrari and Maserati.

Deutsch and Bonnet eventually dropped the Panhard tag, and continued as DB, but when they decided to attempt Formula 1 racing in 1955 they already had experience of some similarly ambitious projects. For example, in the autumn of 1951 the duo had been seen at Montlhéry, testing a four-wheel drive Formula 2 car.

This vehicle consisted of a pair of their ‘500’ chassis frames, halved and welded together to produce a single car carrying a 750cc Panhard engine and drive system at either end. Each horizontally-opposed overhead valve engine had twin mechanical fuel pumps feeding a pair of 1.25-inch Solex carburettors, while ignition was provided by a single Morel magneto for each engine.

The two gearboxes were operated by a single lever, connected to the forward unit in standard fashion and with a long drag-link to the rear unit. Deutsch and Bonnet intended to build a ‘proper racing car powered by a pair of highly-tuned 850cc engines’ for the Formula, with a combined output of about 120bhp in a car totalling less than 1,000lbs — if their tests proved successful. Unfortunately we must presume that the tests were unsuccessful, for the uprated Bi-Moteur DB-Panhard failed to appear.

When the new Grand Prix Formula was introduced in 1954, it admitted unsupercharged engines of up to 2.5-litres while restricting supercharged units to 750cc. This was not a very fair division, and effectively spelled the end of supercharged engines in Grand Prix racing. Only one company produced a blown 750cc GP car — and that, after a fashion, was DB.

In 1954 Bonnet had started a racing driver’s school using 850cc Panhard-engined cars with very slender Deutsch-designed bodies. The cars were called ‘Monomills’, and they toured the country to run in specially arranged races, in a similar circus to the Cisitalia-organised troupe of the immediate postwar years. With no other competition Monomill races were misleadingly fast and impressive, and Bonnet took one of these cars and reduced its engine capacity to 750cc, then added a single Roots-type supercharger to produce his prototype Formula 1 ‘challenger’.

The car was displayed at the Paris Salon late in 1954, and when tests proved fairly promising Bonnet built a second vehicle and entered them both in the Pau Grand Prix the following Easter. He chose this tight round-the-houses circuit since it would level the performance of his cars with the far more powerful but less wieldy 2.5-litre cars … or so he thought.

The ‘Formula 1’ DB Monomill consisted of a simple box-section twin-longeron frame, carrying all-independent suspension by wishbones and a transverse leaf-spring at the front, and by trailing arms and torsion bars at the rear. There was no rear axle beam.

Bonnet’s overhead-valve flat-twin engine mounted transversely ahead of the front suspension, coupled direcdy to the gearbox and final-drive casing, from which universally-jointed half-shafts took power to the wheels. A tiny Roots supercharger was mounted on the front of the crankcase, being driven from the timing gears, and it drew mixture from a large downdraught double-choke Solex carbu-rettor.

Messier, the French aviation company, produced specially cast magnesium-alloy disc wheels for the car, and also aircraft-pattern disc front brakes. Orthodox drum brakes were used on the rear, where they would have very little work to do in this decidedly nose-heavy vehicle.

Its French designers made no move to take advantage of the lack of a rearward drive line by seating their driver low down and building a low-slung car. On the contrary, the new Monomill had an enormous ground clearance and its driver was thrust well into the air in a very exposed cockpit.

Claude Storez and Paul Armagnac were to drive the cars at Pau. Both were experienced DB front-drive exponents, but although the town circuit was tight and twisty it also had some very hilly sections, and on these up-grades the DBs proved hopelessly inadequate and their drivers could make no impression at all – even against the Gordini. Both drivers were notably fast through the corners, simply hurling their cars into them, but power was woefully lacking on the way out. Storez gave up in disgust, while Armagnac gritted his teeth and came home last – by miles. Bonnet put the two cars away and forgot about Formula 1.

[Felix Muelas]

OK, John. DBs covered.

Now, what about the Giaur?
;-)

Felix

[Leo]

One more DB picture, in color:

[Roger Clark]

The description of the DB posted by John says that the engine was mounted transversely. Surely this is wrong. To me, a transverse engine means that the crankshaft is a right angles to the line of travel. I beleive the DBs had the engine mounted like a BMW motorcycle.

The 750cc option for the 1954 formula was included mainly for the benefit of BRM, who could have made a Straight 8 or V8 based on the V16. They showed no signs of doing so.

THere was some surprise, in Britain at any rate, that the Mercedes W196 was a 2.5litre following their experience with supercharged engines. There were also rumouurs that Alfa Romeo were investigating 750cc engines, with 8 and 12 cylinders!

[John Cross]

Roger - you're quite right - in his other book he describes it correctly!

Felix - OK, here's something about the Giaur (no pics, I'm afraid):

Giaur
This modest Italian marque was created by Fiat tuners Domenico Giannini and Berardo — not ‘Bernardo’ — Taraschi. Giannini had built a considerable national reputation — and business — for himself since as early as the mid-1920s and into the 1950s he developed a twin-overhead-camshaft cylinder head for attachment to 750 and 1100 cc Fiat blocks while Taraschi produced a simple and rather primitive ladder-frame chassis to accept it, with coil-and-wishbone independent front suspen-sion and a live rear axle, located by twin radius arms and similarly coil-sprung.

These 750 cc Giaurs were tailored to Italian national Formula 3 whose 250 cc-larger capacity limit than international F3 had been most effective in keeping out those nasty English Coopers which scooped up the money everywhere else in Europe. After Giaur had enjoyed an extremely successful 750 cc national season in 1953, the new 2.5-litre unsupercharged Formula 1 regulations which came into effect in 1954 included the famous 750 cc supercharged option, to which Giannini and Taraschi were briefly attracted.

They cobbled together a blown version of their 750 cc national F3 Giaur and entered it in the 1954 Rome GP at Castelfusano. It was unreliable, of course, which was forgivable — but also desperately slow, which was not, and the Italian marque did not again attempt ‘GP’ racing.

Felix - BTW, don't tell me you've forgotten about the famous Gleed-MG? Shame on you ;)

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by John Cross

Felix - BTW, don't tell me you've forgotten about the famous Gleed-MG? Shame on you ;)

John,

No, I haven´t. ;-)

The reason for not mentioning it is that I have never been able to cross-reference Mike Lawrence´s words "entered in a race at Goodwood, but did not arrived" (that Doug Nye took in literal terms later) with another source that could point out which of the 1958 "F1" meetings at Goodwood was the one Peter Gleed decided to make an entry for the Cooper -oops, Gleed I mean.
That the car existed we have some photographic evidence, but that it ever run is another matter.
Now that I am writing this, I might consider looking for it in Chris Mason´s "Uphill Racers" (The History of British Speed Hill Climbing). Thanks for awakening the subject!

On the other hand, sorry to go back to your correction (also done by Nye) to my writing of the name of Taraschi.
I´m sticking to Bernardo, with your permission, if only because that is a name in Italian and Berardo isn´t...

You might take my word for it or not, but as my mother tongue is Spanish and it comes from Latin, as Italian does, it sounds pretty unfamiliar hearing that name.
Gerardo exists (in both) but Berardo doesn´t. I put my money on Bernardo for the time being...

Un abrazo,

Felix Muelas

[Roger Clark]

Regarding the Gleed; Mike Laurence says that it had a dohc MG R-type engine. THe R-type had a single cam engine, and a picture in Laurence's book suggests that this was the case. He also says that 180bhp was claimed. In its most highly developed pre-war form the 750 MG engine developed about 145bhp. I believe that this was the highest output per litre of any pre-war road-racing engine, including the German Grand Prix cars. It didn't do it for very long though!

[John Cross]

I haven't got the Lawrence book (it's probably the next one on my shopping list!), but Nye says this about the Gleed:

Most enthusiasts have at some time designed themselves a GP car on a beer mat in the pub. By the time most awake the following morning the urge has worn off. Derbyshire enthusiast Peter Gleed went one step further than most, actually assembling his 750 cc supercharged F1 option in 1958.

It consisted of an ex-F3 500 cc Cooper Mark IV chassis and running gear, modified to accommodate a pre-war 750 cc twin-overhead-camshaft ‘R’-Type supercharged engine behind the cockpit, apparently chain-driving the rear axle, although I have never been clear quite how this was arranged. The optimistic Mr Gleed apparently convinced some sympathetic journalists that with 180 bhp in a car weighing only some 450 lb its notional power-to-weight ratio of some 900 bhp per ton would make it a world beater. He, and they, were demonstrably wrong on all counts. An entry was made for a debut at Goodwood, but the Gleed-MG’s brief fame was confined to its public announcement...

I think we've covered all the 750cc supercharged F1 cars now!

[jc_nl]

Thanks for awnsering the question guys I enjoyed reading the awnsers.

To bad they don't have an "imposible" option like this in modern F1, it would make things al lot more fun. If only because of speculations over who would be trying to build such an engine.

[Ray Bell]

The next question is: Were the DBs the only 2-cyl engines ever used in GP racing?
Just imagine racing one, thrashing down the straight, both cylinders beating furiously...

[Ray Bell]

And Marcel, the 750 twincam CC engine at Le Mans (Cooper had one too) was not supercharged either.
Had it been, it may have made some impact these others would never have done.

[Paul Hartshorne]

The irrepressible Harry Schell started the 1950 Monaco GP at the wheel of a normally-aspirated air-cooled 1100cc V2 JAP-engined Cooper F3 car, against 1500cc supercharged Alfas and Ferraris and 4500cc normally-aspirated Talbot-Lagos! Unfortunately, he didn't complete a single lap

I believe that Ferrari were working on a 4500cc V2 at the same time. Anyone have more info on that monster!?

[jarama]

I know something about a 2500 cc. 2IL, but no idea on a 4500cc. V2.

[Paul Hartshorne]

That will be the one that I'm thinking of. Ferrari abandoned it when they got their hands on the Lancia D50s.

[jarama]

About this engine:

It's registered as an Experimental Engine in the Official Ferrari Project Register with the number 61.

Is the Type (116)252F1, 2 cyl.on line, 118x114 mm., 2493.4 cc.

Was given considerable testing on the bench and gave 175bhp at 4800rpm.

As you says, this project was closed when Ferrari was given the Lancia material.

The designer was Aurelio Lampredi.

[Ray Bell]

Sounds like they would have been really grateful that they didn't have to work it up to speed... 175bhp would be well down on the pace of the day, and even though torque would have to be great and the fuels they were able to use would have helped with internal stresses... it was an engine surely fraught with dangers.
Just imagine plucking a wrong gear... it was enough of a problem for the Vanwalls with their big 4.

[KzKiwi]

I have just uncovered a picture of Lampredi's V2. It is a vertical twin - as such it looks very tall due to its very short length.

It was designed to comply with the 1952-60 GP regulations, and had 4 valves per cylinder and 2 twin-choke carbs. Apparently during testing it virtually shook itself to death on the test bed.....back to the drawing boards!

[alessandro silva]

Felix
I am sorry, but Taraschi's name is definitely Berardo not Bernardo. I agree with you that it is not Latin, but the French have it too (Bérard) both as a Christian and as a family name. Besides Berardi is a quite common family name in Taraschi's region, the Abruzzi (Berardi meaning "the Berardos").
The Giaur pictures have revived a very recent and very old memories. The very recent one is that a few days ago in a Paris bookseller I have seen that there is a book on Taraschi! I could not believe it and I could not give a look inside it because it was wrapped and the guy did not let me open it. And I know that there is a book on Giannini too! The Giaur history is then complete for posterity.
As for the old ones, the 750 cc sportscar class was very popular in Italy after WWII. Innumerable FIAT engine tuners (called "truccatori" from the verb truccare that means playing tricks) build specials and some of them went as far as becoming car builders. I think that the forerunner was SIATA before the war and after Stanguellini, Ermini, Giannini, Volpini, Moretti and Taraschi. In the 1.1 L class they were soon outclassed by OSCA that was a true racing car while Stanguellini was by far the most successful in the 750 cc class. Giaur was always playing second fiddle at best. Around 1956 OSCA put out a 750 sportscar and that was the end for the others. Always from my memory, the early Taraschi special was called FIAT-Urano, whence the UR in Giaur. The Giaur cars were used also in the Italian F3 run under 750 cc specifications. This formula never really picked up: the Gilera 4 cyl. and the Guzzi ,4,6 and 8 cyl engines that trounced the Nortons in the 500 cc class in motorcycle World Championship races were far too heavy, expensive and complicated to be run in such primitive chassis technology, whence it was decided to race the 750 sportscars slightly modified. When foreign drivers took their Cooper-Nortons to racing in Italy they found no opposition. I distinctly remember Stuart Lewis-Evans winning two races in the summer of 1955 in Teramo (Taraschi's hometown) and Cosenza and Wicken, Dennis Taylor and Loens also competing in those races (and a Brown that I do not think it was Alan). I remember also a Staride car about which I would like to know more. The Italian cars were in any case much faster than the DB-Monomille. The best Italian F3 driver was Renato Pirocchi (also from Abruzzi). Pirocchi was in the list of three with Bandini and Baghetti among which the Italian Automobile Club had to choose a driver for the F1 Ferrari in 1961. Baghetti was the choice as it is wellknown.Taraschi was a pretty decent driver himself and in 1954 he got hold of a (1950?) Ferrari 166 2.L with which I am sure that he finished the 1955 Turin and Naples GP's. Taraschi's best car was the 1959 FJ. As opposed to the crude 750 it was technically more advanced featuring a De Dion rear suspension layout, while Stanguellini still had a rear live axle. By 1959 a FJ car would cost half the price than a 750 sportscar (around 1400 pounds) so Stanguellini and in less extent Taraschi and the others dived into that buisiness. Taraschi found a real treasure in then Italian Riviera resident Colin Davis who became a sort of works driver for the make enjoing huge success in 1959 and early 1960 with the car.
alessandro silva

[Ray Bell]

A mere slip there, Kz, I guess, but the formula ran from 1954, not 1952...

[Milan Fistonic]

Roger
You wrote that there were rumours that Alfa Romeo were investigating 750cc engines for the 1954-1960 formula. I cannot confirm that, but Luigi Fusi in his book on the marque writes that in 1952 the Alfa Romeo design team were working on a GP car for 1954.
It was the Tipo 160 and it had a flat twelve 2483cc engine, four wheel drive under the control of the driver and a driving seat located behind the centre-line of the rear wheels (to enable the driver to better assess the behaviour of the cars on corners).
The engine was built (there are photos of it in Fusi's book) and drawings of all other components exist but the project was shelved due to the pressure of work caused by the launch of the Giuletta.

[Roger Clark]

Milan

i should add that the Alfa/750 rumours ere very vague, and I've never heard anything that suggested they had any substance.

I read somewhere that tey converted a 158 to the seating congigurationof the 160 as a test bed before building the 160 itself. It's interesting that having tried the 512 with the driver right at the front thwy should go to the other extreme.

[KzKiwi]

I believe that one of the principle reasons for the 'Dragster' type positioning of the driver in the AR tipo 160 was as a result of very negative comments concerning the 512's evil handling and lack of driver feedback on chassis response.

I think it was one of the AR test drivers from the 40s who was quoted as saying this. It may have been Sanesi??? - the same one who occasionally raced for Alfa Romeo as well.

Regards'
Kirk

[fines]

Quote from Mike Lawrence, "Grand Prix Cars 1945-65":

"Odd though this seating position may seem, it was tried in testing on an Alfetta, and while Sanesi found it extremely uncomfortable, for it was only a test rig and he had no wind protection, apparently he found no difficulty in controlling the car."

Good thing this idea never caught on, at least for the aesthetics! Still, I would love to see a pic!

[Ray Bell]

I've read or heard somewhere that Maserati built a 250F with adjustable driving position, and that most drivers were fastest with the seat furthest back...

[fines]

Don "250F" Capps, you should be able to tell us more...

[Michael M]

I'm somewhat late, because I missed this thread partly.
Ray, the 2.5 ltr formula was stated as potential possibility by FIA as early as 1950 for 1952 onwards. Howver, final decision then was for 2 ltr F2 cars as we all know.

[Don Capps]

The new GP formula (F1) was announced sometime at the end of 1951 if I recall. Off the top of my head, I can't think of the actual date. I do know that that the teams had all of 1952 and 1953 to think about the new formula. This is also a part of the reason everyone was willing to dump the current formula when Alfa dropped out, BRM fumbled its opportunity to get into the game, and not much of anyone was willing to play.

There was some adjustment in the early 250F's, but not not very much, only a matter of a few "notches" totalling only a few cm's at best. Apparently most did put in in the rear position. Not aware of any adjustment in the later batches.

[Don Capps]

Just checked (Jenkinson, A Story of Formula 1), it was late 1951. Plus, wading through dozens & dozens of Autosports this weekend at Watkins Glen, I saw discussion of the new formula and it was in the late 1951 issues.

[Michael M]

Correct of course that the FIA decision for the 1954 2.5 litre Formula was taken end of 1951, however, there had been earlier discussions in 1950 already about potential introduction of this formula already for 1952. Ferrari with their always good relation to FIA over the winter 1950/51 therefore built 2 cars of the tipo 212 as test cars, which had a 2.5 litre V12 engine. After it was clear that 1952/53 the championship will be for 2 ltr F2 cars, they abandoned the project. One of the cars was sold to Scuderia Espadon (Rudi Fischer) who ran the 212 in the 1951 F1 WC, and switched over to a 166 engine for 1952.

[Ray Bell]

So far we've had the following from Ferrari for the 2.5-litre/750cc supercharged formula:
A 2.5 V2...
A 2.5 V12...
They're the extremes... and along came the:
2.5 inline four... a great standby, followed by:
The Lancia V8...
But it was not until 1957 that the Dino came in, then they had built, tested and raced engines of 2, 4, 6, 8 & 12cyl configurations.
Did Ferrari also contemplate the blown option?
Unlikely, I guess, after the Silverstone win.

[Michael M]

The original Ferrari decision in 1946 to build a V12 was heavily influenced by Enzo himself, but also Colombo with his experiences on prewar Alfa racing engines backed this idea as well as the supercharging route. When Colombo left and Lampredi took over, he followed his theory that the atmospheric principle would be the better solution. The Alfetta 158 in 1950 produced 350 HP, meaning that an unblown 4.5 ltr engine must have approx. 80 HP/ltr to be competitive. Ferrari reached this already with their highly successful F2 tipo 166 engine (160 HP), so the future way for F1 was clear. For F2 Lampredi favoured development of a lighter more compact four cylinder engine with a broader power band, influenced by the rival Alta engine. Although this had only 140 HP, it produced a similar level of torque than the Ferrari, and useful power over a wider range of engine operating speed, whith peak power already at 6500 rpm compared to the Ferrari’s 7500 rpm. Theoretically there is no reason why a four cylinder engine should give a broader range of power than a V12 at the same discplacement given a similar peak power speed. Where then, did Lampredi see an advantage? He appreciated that the key to the performance of the Alta engine was its excellent breathing, and he wanted to explore the same route. This followed the approach of the contemporary Norton motorcycle racing engine which produced already 100 HP per litre. May be this was also the reason for Ferrari to test even two cylinder engines.
I believe a blown version was no option anymore. The BRM V16 confirmed that 330 HP/ltr was possible for a supercharged engine, so a 750 cc engine could be coaxed to give 250 HP matching the 100 HP/ltr performance anticipated from the forthcoming 2.5 ltr engines. However, five figure engine speeds, an extremely narrow power curve by using centrifugal blower, and excessive thirst must be counted on the negative side.

[Ray Bell]

Although I knew Vanwall had roots in the Norton engines, I was never aware Alta also did.

[Michael M]

No technical connections between Alta and Norton of course, but Lampredi when analyzing the Norton engine must have been convinced that the targeted 100 hp/ltr would be achieved easier with a 4 than with a V12.

[Ray Bell]

Probably weight and fuel consumption considerations came into it as well?

[ghinzani]

All this talk of 750 supercharged engines, and bike engines leads me to the obvious question - when were 2 strokes outlawed? And would a 2 stroke 750cc supercharged motor have made decent power in those days?

As an aside I am contemplating fitting a charger to my cbr600 engine. why? because its there...

[Rupertlt1]

This picture showed up at Revs?

 

https://library.revs...fied-car/617805

 

RGDS RLT

[Porsche718]

That's the 1955 version of the Formula 1 DB-Panhard.

 

745 cc supercharged. It produced 85 bhp.

 

The engine hung out ahead of the front axle. Would have had interesting handling.