321 replies to this topic

[Devero]

Quote

Originally posted by JensonWDC


Average, hm, he beat Fisi by quite a good margin last year

What margin? Without odd races in Japan and Canada he lost to Fisi.

He is not a WDC material, that is clear. Let alone Alonso`s level which is of the greatest ever F1 drivers.

[JensonWDC]

Quote

Originally posted by Devero


What margin? Without odd races in Japan and Canada he lost to Fisi.

He is not a WDC material, that is clear. Let alone Alonso`s level which is of the greatest ever F1 drivers.

Odd races
Kova drove excellent in Fuji, he made no mistakes and his second place was fully deserved (he finished half a minute in front of Fisi)
And also the pits are part of a race track (also for Fisichella), so he deserved to be disqualified in Canada.

[Hippo]

Quote

Originally posted by Devero
He is not a WDC material, that is clear. Let alone Alonso`s level which is of the greatest ever F1 drivers.

One shouldn't bite off what one possibly can't chew... Maybe Kovalainen will score more than 2 WDC titles and Alonso never wins one again. Considering where they are driving now this is pretty much possible.

[santori]

Quote

Originally posted by Two Jags


Ah yes but the stats don't tell the full story.. The fifth GP last year was Monaco & Heikki was indeed 15th but wasn't he blocked by DC? Anyhow DC got kicked out of Q3 for it..

He was, but he was a lot slower than Fisi all weekend (Here's the thread from the 2007 qualifying).

I like Heikki a lot and thought he and Lewis would probably have done a similar job in each other's position last year. Just making a point about the Renault rookie this year who doesn't happen to be Finnish.

[K-One]

Quote

Originally posted by santori


Heikki? For the fifth race of last year he qualified 15th while his team-mate was fourth.

Nice that you cherry-picked that race when DC blocked, shows how desperate Alonso fanboys are Heikki said that the wants equal treatment and that wasn't at Renault, so he is at Mclaren now.
Look at Flavio's comments before Alonso was signed and that tells whole story. Only Lobato/Marca are hyping up Alonso, wasn't Renault supposed to be winning car after Alonso came along? Funny also that Flavios was bitching HK whole season and now suddenly NP is doing ok

--

Was at Istanbul park today - Kimi made huge mistake on last turn, saw that close and haven't seen such mistake so far. Heikki did great job, I suspect that he is 1 lap heavier. Massa was classic Massa again at Istanbul, he will definitely win tomorrow if no surprises. Kimi will struggle, dirty side and Hamilton will surely block him for turn 1.

[Josta]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One


Nice that you cherry-picked that race when DC blocked

Fisi was faster in EVERY single session at Monaco, (Monaco is being chosen as it was the 5th race of the year). In the Thursday practice sessions, Fisi was roughly 1.5 seconds quicker in each session.

[santori]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One


Nice that you cherry-picked that race when DC blocked, shows how desperate Alonso fanboys are Heikki said that the wants equal treatment and that wasn't at Renault, so he is at Mclaren now.

No, I picked the fifth race of last season because we're looking at the fifth race of this season and I was actually defending Nelson Piquet Jr. And Heikki a) wasn't going to do much better than 15th last year and b) caused problems for himself when DC was in his way (as several posters wrote while watching it).

[Two Jags]

Quote

Originally posted by santori


No, I picked the fifth race of last season because we are looking at the fifth race of this season and I was actually defending Nelson Piquet Jr. And Heikki a) wasn't going to do much better than 15th last year and b) caused problems for himself when DC was in his way (as several posters wrote while watching it).

I think it was a good comparison. You're right - Heikki did start off badly & Renault stuck with him - I just wondered whether they will be so patient with Piquet Jr.

[ex Rhodie racer]

I think with regards Lewis/Heikki, the jury is still out on that one. Very impressed with the Finn. He looks like a great talent.
Kimi/Massa, mmmm. It´s going to be hard for Kimi supporters to justify their claim that Massa is Kimi´s #2 if he continues to overshadow the world champ in quali and thereby keeps setting himself up to head Kimi home on Sunday. We all thought this one had been put to bed, but has it?
Alonso is a class act. He is flattering a very average car. I doubt there is anyone in F1 today that could get more out of the Renault. I wouldn´t be too harsh on NP jnr. It´s a tough one being thrown into the ring with arguably the best in the business in your rookie year, as well as in a car that leaves a lot to be desired. I for one will wait till the end of the season before passing judgement.

[sainsburypeter]

Any news from TS?

Thanks

[race]

Quote

Originally posted by Formulaonefan
Kimi appears to have more fuel after his comments.

I doubt it.

Australia - no indication but I would bet that Massa had 1 lap more fuel
Malaysia - Kimi had 1 lap more fuel
Bahrain - Massa 1 lap more fuel
Spain - Kimi had 1 lap more fuel
Turkey - Massa probably has 1 lap more fuel
Monaco - Kimi will probably have 1 lap more fuel
....

I don't see a reason why Ferrari would've changed the pattern for this race. Kimi's hopeful and Massa's wary comments were a bit strange, but in the end I think Kimi just messed up and has less fuel than Massa.

Race prediction: Massa will disappear into the distance. Kimi will beat LH easily, but will have a tough job to beat Kova, who may have as much or more fuel than him. Final result: FM, KR, HK, LH, RK, NH.

[Yellowmc]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One
Kimi made huge mistake on last turn

Can you describe it?

The TV coverage didn't show us any mistake but we all know he made one.

[hello86]

yes and how much did it cost him? half a second or less?

btw I think that the mclaren will be havier than him or at least come in in the same lap (ham)
he has to overtake them at the start, will be exciting to watch

and he cannot afford much of this off-weekend,
so far it were 3 out of 5
the good thing is that the others also have lots of them

[Hippo]

Quote

Originally posted by Yellowmc


Can you describe it?

The TV coverage didn't show us any mistake but we all know he made one.

Räikkönen experienced some pretty heavy oversteering in the last tight section of the lap. It may have cost him one or two tenth. But then again Hamilton had a not so good lap too. He lost a few tenth in turn eight. I think if they all had done perfect laps Hamilton would have been just in front of Massa, followed by Kovalainen and Räikkönen. Meaning Hamilton and Massa were set up for pole, but Hamilton failed. Both of them are on short first stints compared to their teammates.

[K-One]

he was sliding when entering llast corner, resulting loss of speed coming to start finish straight - I think he lost at least 2 tenths there, if not more

[K-One]

Quote

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer

Alonso is a class act. He is flattering a very average car. I doubt there is anyone in F1 today that could get more out of the Renault. I wouldn´t be too harsh on NP jnr. It´s a tough one being thrown into the ring with arguably the best in the business in your rookie year, as well as in a car that leaves a lot to be desired.

lol, a class act, in what way? At least Hamilton, who is crap according many, matched brilliantly with arguably the best in business in his rookie year

[jokuvaan]

Quote

Any news from TS?

Kimi got setup close to what he wanted but tyre heat-up didnt go well.

[Yellowmc]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One
he was sliding when entering llast corner, resulting loss of speed coming to start finish straight - I think he lost at least 2 tenths there, if not more

Thanks, pretty much expected as the tyres drop off and Kimi may have been caught out.

I still don't think he had enough to beat Massa over 1 lap when it counted, I say that as a Kimi supporter.

[K-One]

Quote

Originally posted by Yellowmc


Thanks, pretty much expected as the tyres drop off and Kimi may have been caught out.

I still don't think he had enough to beat Massa over 1 lap when it counted, I say that as a Kimi supporter.

Yep, hard to say, car seemed to loose all speed totally in that corner.

Turkey is Massa's strong track. He was very happy with his both laps

[primer]

Piquet is such a mess, at the Spanish qualifying I though he was finally getting there, but then he screwed the race and now is back to his usual slow laps in Turkish Qualifying
I really don't know what the hell's the matter with him. Sutil, Nelson, Glock these guys are all doing it wrong.

[Hippo]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One

Turkey is Massa's strong track. He was very happy with his both laps

I think that's a myth. Massa wasn't doing really good this weekend. Hamilton could have beaten him on prime compound if he wouldn't have had that moment in turn eight. I think that tells us, that Massa's time really aint that great. Also looking at free practise and Q1 and Q2 it doesnt look like Massa is totally awesome in Istanbul. In fact Räikkönen did a very much superior first effort in each session.

Massa is always happy when he wins pole - especially when his teammate is not in P2. We will see tomorrow if Massa can live up to the pressure. I believe his strategy is not as good as those of Kovalainen and Räikkönen.

[Devero]

Quote

Originally posted by K-One


lol, a class act, in what way? At least Hamilton, who is crap according many, matched brilliantly with arguably the best in business in his rookie year

With Alonso`s settings, development input, no pressure, and with the team which was racing Fernando.

It was abnormal last year and only as of mid-race of China-07 it became moving back to normal.

A bit exponentially, I have to admit.

And there is more to come for Lewis.;)

[manodemono]

Quote

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
I think with regards Lewis/Heikki, the jury is still out on that one. Very impressed with the Finn. He looks like a great talent.
Kimi/Massa, mmmm. It´s going to be hard for Kimi supporters to justify their claim that Massa is Kimi´s #2 if he continues to overshadow the world champ in quali and thereby keeps setting himself up to head Kimi home on Sunday. We all thought this one had been put to bed, but has it?
Alonso is a class act. He is flattering a very average car. I doubt there is anyone in F1 today that could get more out of the Renault. I wouldn´t be too harsh on NP jnr. It´s a tough one being thrown into the ring with arguably the best in the business in your rookie year, as well as in a car that leaves a lot to be desired. I for one will wait till the end of the season before passing judgement.

I am in total agreement with the points you've highlighted.

Heikki is going great. He's qualified very well & at this point you can't say Hamilton's doing better than Heikki.
The reasons for this occuring are possibly :

a. Heikki is adapting better to driving this year's MAC w/o the traction control
b. Without the set up experience of FA, both LH & Heikki live with what they have, i.e. their own talent & the results thus far indicate both are evenly matched

Without the driver aids, it's been more difficult to be consistently fast this year, I thus expect the better all around driver to prevail towards year end. The same applies at Ferrari with Kimi & Massa.

Is Alonso a class act ?

I'd like to see the day when all teams use the same car like they do in GP2 with the same tires. I'd bet it would still be difficult to get everyone to agree on who's the class act !

[slvraro]

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo
Meaning Hamilton and Massa were set up for pole, but Hamilton failed.

I can see that as Hamilton in the PC seemed to show that with his body language.

Why didn't Hamilton go for another hot lap at the end? He would have been a little lighter and with hardly any on-track passing I would think it would be worth trying for pole.

Here's to Heikki for the win. He has his work cut out for him...should be exciting. Great qualifying and so far a great year from the finn.

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by manodemono


I am in total agreement with the points you've highlighted.

Heikki is going great. He's qualified very well & at this point you can't say Hamilton's doing better than Heikki.

Heikki hasn't been able to match Hamilton's race pace. So far all he's done is cruise and collect. Great way to score points, but hardly spectacular.

[slvraro]

Quote

Originally posted by manodemono



I'd like to see the day when all teams use the same car like they do in GP2 with the same tires. I'd bet it would still be difficult to get everyone to agree on who's the class act !

They did . . . It used to be called ChampCar ;)

[airwise]

Quote

Originally posted by Devero


With Alonso`s settings, development input,

That's helping Renault this year of course. Turkey 2007 the Regie qualify 7th and 10th. This year 7th and 17th. That's progress for you.

Meanwhile Mclaren. Turkey 2007 they qualify 2nd and 4th. This year 2nd and 3rd. And of course they are struggling without Fred's superhuman input.

[Lantern]

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo


I think that's a myth. Massa wasn't doing really good this weekend. Hamilton could have beaten him on prime compound if he wouldn't have had that moment in turn eight. I think that tells us, that Massa's time really aint that great. Also looking at free practise and Q1 and Q2 it doesnt look like Massa is totally awesome in Istanbul. In fact Räikkönen did a very much superior first effort in each session.

Massa is always happy when he wins pole - especially when his teammate is not in P2. We will see tomorrow if Massa can live up to the pressure. I believe his strategy is not as good as those of Kovalainen and Räikkönen.

He's happy when he wins races too. And he's won the last two Turkish GPs.

[Sith]

Heıkkı ıs gettıng better wıth each outıng. Lewıs mıghtve got the pole ıf he had the softer tyres... Kımı dıd made an error ın the last corner mıghtve got front row... ı thınk weire ın for a good race between the 4...

[ClubmanGT]

Did anyone else see the piece of footage with Alonso blocking Kimi that they played when they were talking to Ron after qualifying about Lewis' tyre choices?

I like ITV's priorities here - the world champion is inexplicably slow, but let's talk to the team prinicpal of the cars that scored 2nd and 3rd, instead of asking what happened to Kimi or, at a stretch, talking to the team that actually got pole position.

[Josta]

Quote

I can see that as Hamilton in the PC seemed to show that with his body language.

According to Lewis, that was Heikki's fault for talking too much when he was desperate to go for a piss.

Quote

Q. (Ian Parkes – The Press Association) Lewis, you have said you are very disappointed and your body language suggests you are not too happy if you don't mind me saying…

LH: I just need the toilet, that's all! And I'm really wondering whether Heikki's really Finnish because his answers are longer than I've ever known!

[Josta]

Quote

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
Did anyone else see the piece of footage with Alonso blocking Kimi that they played when they were talking to Ron after qualifying about Lewis' tyre choices?

I like ITV's priorities here - the world champion is inexplicably slow, but let's talk to the team prinicpal of the cars that scored 2nd and 3rd, instead of asking what happened to Kimi or, at a stretch, talking to the team that actually got pole position.

This has already been discussed at length. It was Massa and they were both on their out laps.

[manodemono]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


Heikki hasn't been able to match Hamilton's race pace. So far all he's done is cruise and collect. Great way to score points, but hardly spectacular.

It's not about race pace. It's about consistent race pace at all times at all races.

I believe Heikki is going to end up with more points than Lewis at year end. This if course inspite of the equal treatment he is getting at MAC where he has hasn't always been able to qualify with the most competitive strategy ( Heikki has typically qualified with more fuel - hence, the semblance of Heikki cruising ).

Heikki in this year's MAC (without the traction control) together with the absence of FA's inputs is going to reveal Hamilton's true level of competence

[slvraro]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


Heikki hasn't been able to match Hamilton's race pace. So far all he's done is cruise and collect. Great way to score points, but hardly spectacular.

Are you kidding? If it weren't from the crash at Barcelona he aurguably would have taken third and would be leading Hamilton in the championship. Also, the safety car messed up his race in Australia which took away points. Hardly cruising. Don't forget he the new guy who came into a pretty crazy situation from last years fiasco. I would say he is doing a phenom job.

[ClubmanGT]

Quote

Originally posted by Josta


This has already been discussed at length. It was Massa and they were both on their out laps.

Cool. Thanks. I stand corrected.

[Mauseri]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1
Heikki hasn't been able to match Hamilton's race pace.

In some races Heikki's been faster, in some Hamilton. Usually Heikki is fast towards the end of the stints. Guess Hamilton is overriding his car. Just like in every qualifying session, he seems to go fast into corners and slow out, which isnt the fastest way to do it.

[slvraro]

Quote

Originally posted by Josta


According to Lewis, that was Heikki's fault for talking too much when he was desperate to go for a piss.

LOL

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by micra_k10

In some races Heikki's been faster, in some Hamilton. Usually Heikki is fast towards the end of the stints. Guess Hamilton is overriding his car. Just like in every qualifying session, he seems to go fast into corners and slow out, which isnt the fastest way to do it.

Not really. In Australia LH was faster. In Malaysia, LH was faster and ahead of HK until the unfortunate pit stop. LH ****ed up in Bahrain so can't make a decent comparison there. In Spain, LH and RK were neck and neck while HK was fading away from RK until the crash.

[inca_roads]

Quote

Originally posted by micra_k10

In some races Heikki's been faster, in some Hamilton.

Nope. Hamilton has had better pace in every race except Bahrain. But anyway, Heikki shouldn't be expected to come in and match Hamilton from race 1. He said himself he would be building steadily throughout the year. We'll have to see what happens. He's made a pretty decent start. But apart from Bahrain, Hamilton's done a good job too.

[airwise]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


Not really. In Australia LH was faster. In Malaysia, LH was faster and ahead of HK until the unfortunate pit stop. LH ****ed up in Bahrain so can't make a decent comparison there. In Spain, LH and RK were neck and neck while HK was fading away from RK until the crash.

Excellent post.

[as65p]

Quote

Originally posted by manodemono

Heikki in this year's MAC (without the traction control) together with the absence of FA's inputs is going to reveal Hamilton's true level of competence

And a lot of people might not like what they see.

Of course, there's always the option to close your eyes and pretend it isn't so.

;)

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by as65p


And a lot of people might not like what they see.

Of course, there's always the option to close your eyes and pretend it isn't so.

;)

Except of course that it not happening. Unlike everyone predicted, McLaren DON'T seem to be going downhill without the lack of FA's inputs and seem to be closer to Ferrari on Ferrari tracks than last year, which I guess is frustrating to lot of Alonso supporters desperate for evidence of FA's setup and development skills or LH's lack of setup and development skills.

[manodemono]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


Except of course that it not happening. Unlike everyone predicted, McLaren DON'T seem to be going downhill without the lack of FA's inputs and seem to be closer to Ferrari on Ferrari tracks than last year.

Hello ?

Same time last year, MAC with Alonso's inputs was leading Ferrari in both WCC & WDC !

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by manodemono


Hello ?

Same time last year, MAC with Alonso's inputs was leading Ferrari in both WCC & WDC !

That's not the point. The point is McLaren haven't fallen back as many have predicted and now might even be able to challenge Ferrari in turkey which is known to be a Ferrari track. Not exactly what happened last year was it? I guess LH does know how to setup and develop the cars. On the other hand Renault with help of Alonso are doing even worse than last year.

[as65p]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


Except of course that it not happening. Unlike everyone predicted, McLaren DON'T seem to be going downhill without the lack of FA's inputs and seem to be closer to Ferrari on Ferrari tracks than last year, which I guess is frustrating to lot of Alonso supporters desperate for evidence of FA's setup and development skills or LH's lack of setup and development skills.

As I said.

QED

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by as65p


As I said.

QED

So McLaren being able to challenge Ferrari in Turkey unlike last year shows Hamiltons ability to setup and develop cars, right? And Heikki DID show Hamilton's true level of competence, by not being as fast as hamilton in the races.

[manodemono]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


That's not the point. The point is McLaren haven't fallen back as many have predicted and now might even be able to challenge Ferrari in turkey which is known to be a Ferrari track. Not exactly what happened last year was it? I guess LH does know how to setup and develop the cars. On the other hand Renault with help of Alonso are doing even worse than last year.

Mac isn't going to come close to Ferrari this year like it or not !

FA's year long contribution at MAC last year kept them in complete control of both WDC & WCC until the last race ( discounting the disqualification meted to them by the FIA ). MAC's loss of the WDC was due to the fact that MAC was racing against FA & not with FA !

It's wishful thinking if you sustain, MAC will challenge Ferrari for victory tomorrow. I suggest you review Q2 times & tell me what you think of the RBRs & FA's Renault that are all separated by about 1/10 of a second with the MACs !

[Josta]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


So McLaren being able to challenge Ferrari in Turkey unlike last year shows Hamiltons ability to setup and develop cars, right? And Heikki DID show Hamilton's true level of competence, by not being as fast as hamilton in the races.

After 4 races this year, Lewis has 2 thirds of the points he had at the same time last year. If he can set the car up just as well, then he must have forgotten to drive as well.

[internetf1]

Quote

Originally posted by Josta


After 4 races this year, Lewis has 2 thirds of the points he had at the same time last year. If he can set the car up just as well, then he must have forgotten to drive as well.

Of course last years cars and this years car is completely different. You could apply the same logic to Alonso. In fact after Alonso left, McLaren have remained on pace and seem to have improved on Ferrari tracks like Turkey in which Ferrari dominated last year while Renault have gone back relative to top teams compared to last year. What does that say about Alonso's setup and development skills?

[as65p]

Quote

Originally posted by internetf1


So McLaren being able to challenge Ferrari in Turkey unlike last year shows Hamiltons ability to setup and develop cars, right? And Heikki DID show Hamilton's true level of competence, by not being as fast as hamilton in the races.

I wrote:

there's always the option to close your eyes and pretend it isn't so.

and you seem to make an almighty effort to demonstrate exactly that. Carry on!