242 replies to this topic

[Levike]

Originally posted by Slyder


Eh, you might want to check your tape further, on the press conference where Senna explains what happened to his car....

Senna's electronics jammed on him I guess with his TC or AS, and that allowed Prost to come right up to him. Senna was just defending as much as he could and then he made the mistake.

What mistake ?
Maybe the chop on Schu was mistake, but i think it was 50-50%

[wide-front-wing]

Originally posted by JtP1
Most of MA's early season crashes were caused by being taken out by other drivers.

Wow. Just wow!

[Slyder]

Originally posted by Levike


What mistake ?
Maybe the chop on Schu was mistake, but i think it was 50-50%

IIRC, he didn't exit off well at the last corner, which allowed Prost to get a run on him..

It's been a while since I've seen this race, so bear with me...

I do remember that press conference though.

[JtP1]

Originally posted by Slyder


Eh, you might want to check your tape further, on the press conference where Senna explains what happened to his car....

Senna's electronics jammed on him I guess with his TC or AS, and that allowed Prost to come right up to him. Senna was just defending as much as he could and then he made the mistake.

What Senna had to say in the press conference need not be accurate. I personally suspect that the only thing that jammed, was Senna's head up his butt. Prost and MS were with him from the start.

[Bumper]

Could we try and concentrate on Andretti in this thread and keep the Senna vs Prost discussion out please, thank you.

[JtP1]

One of the major problem for MA was the reduction to 12 laps practice per session. This in his first season on tracks he had never driven on, was a major handicap. Jaques V over came a similar handicap by using computer games of GP tracks to overcome the problem.

[aportinga]

Omitted

[aportinga]

Originally posted by MickyD
It is very clear from watching the excellent documentary ("The Team - a season with McLaren) referred to on this thread, covering their 1993 season, that Michael Andretti lacked the commitment and professionalism needed to have any chance of success in Formula One.

The film crew records MA's phone calls on his comfy sofa at home in the states with his engineer Steve Hallam back in the UK and Michael's body language/tome of voice says it all, i.e. nothing! Then compare him and Senna in team briefings - OK, Senna was a superman but even so, Andretti was a plank in those briefings (what we saw of them anyway).

And a very telling clip is the one where press officer Norman Howell asks Senna if the McLaren's new engine feels different. Senna replies "of course it feels different" and goes on to explain how and why. When Howell asks the same question to Andretti, the response is a pull of the face, shrug of the shoulders and the word "Nah". If Andretti could not notice any difference with a new engine in the back of an F1 car then what on Earth was he doing there? Maybe he might have said different when the engineers asked him the same question but somehow I doubt whether he would have said much more!

This alone made me wonder how on earth he even lasted until Monza....

Summed up to perfection

[zg1972]

Originally posted by aportinga


Summed up to perfection

Exactly. F1 has never been a game and it always required total commitment to achieve top results.

[Kenaltgr]

Originally posted by zg1972
He got them from the race 9. Why would need he to negotiate all season long when the engines were the same for the entire second half of the season? BTW, McLaren's (and Senna's) results were worse than in the first half of the season.

McLaren got the Ford HBVII engine at Silverstone, Benetton by then had the HBVIII. It is all documented in "A season with McLaren". McLaren never got the latest spec Ford engine as it was contracted by Ford to be exclusively to Benetton. As Benetton got the latest spec, the next one down would go to McLaren, that was never broken all season. Benetton only offered the latest spec to be shared if McLaren shared the Tag electronics with Benetton, which was declined. In Episode 2, of that link Dennis said the Ford HBVI engine that McLaren had up to Silverstone was 80HP down on the Williams RS5 engine. Renault confirmed this at the end of the season.

[zg1972]

Originally posted by Kenaltgr


McLaren got the Ford HBVII engine at Silverstone, Benetton by then had the HBVIII. It is all documented in "A season with McLaren". McLaren never got the latest spec Ford engine as it was contracted by Ford to be exclusively to Benetton. As Benetton got the latest spec, the next one down would go to McLaren, that was never broken all season. Benetton only offered the latest spec to be shared if McLaren shared the Tag electronics with Benetton, which was declined. In Episode 2, of that link Dennis said the Ford HBVI engine that McLaren had up to Silverstone was 80HP down on the Williams RS5 engine. Renault confirmed this at the end of the season.

OK, but what was the difference between specs VI, VII and VIII?
Also, how did the Renault people knew the exact output of Ford engines?

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Originally posted by MickyD
It is very clear from watching the excellent documentary ("The Team - a season with McLaren) referred to on this thread, covering their 1993 season, that Michael Andretti lacked the commitment and professionalism needed to have any chance of success in Formula One.

The film crew records MA's phone calls on his comfy sofa at home in the states with his engineer Steve Hallam back in the UK and Michael's body language/tome of voice says it all, i.e. nothing! Then compare him and Senna in team briefings - OK, Senna was a superman but even so, Andretti was a plank in those briefings (what we saw of them anyway).

And a very telling clip is the one where press officer Norman Howell asks Senna if the McLaren's new engine feels different. Senna replies "of course it feels different" and goes on to explain how and why. When Howell asks the same question to Andretti, the response is a pull of the face, shrug of the shoulders and the word "Nah". If Andretti could not notice any difference with a new engine in the back of an F1 car then what on Earth was he doing there? Maybe he might have said different when the engineers asked him the same question but somehow I doubt whether he would have said much more!

This alone made me wonder how on earth he even lasted until Monza....

You have to understand the Andretti brand power to sell F1 to the US. Even Mario was coddled in 1977-78, with Ronnie Petersen taking a very active second driver role dragging the brakes to make Mario look better. MA was racing an apple in a field of oranges, with a submissive second driver.

as for Marco -he knows nothing about world-class racing. He wouldn't be out of go-karts if it wasn't for his name and Dad's money.

[wide-front-wing]

I can't figure out which post is worst - the one where you claim NASCAR has no braking or shifting or this gem...

dragging the brakes? What I wouldn't give to watch you say something like this to Mario's face...

[Oho]

Originally posted by JtP1
One of the major problem for MA was the reduction to 12 laps practice per session.

Hardly, the limit was only imposed on qualifying sessions. If anything actually limited his track time during any given race weekend it was tire quota. What was the tire quota it in 1993? In the late 90's years it was something like 7 sets, which led to very lean Fridays indeed with drivers sparing up to five sets exclusively for qualifying and race. Well perhaps I am on a limb here but track familiarization driving one could do decently even with pretty worn tires.

[Ralliart]

Excerpts from "American Grand Prix Racing" by Tim Considine are, perhaps, in order. To wit:
"(Michael) and his famous father...traveled to Europe to test the F1 waters in 1990. While Michael was committed to Indy car racing for Newman-Haas for the next two years, McLaren boss Ron Dennis seemed surprisingly enthusiastic, and definitely open to further discussions. Then, in October 1990, after Alessandro Nannini was seriously injured in a helicopter crash, Benetton called...(Mario said at the time) 'He can't just pick up and go without Carl having someone marketable to fill the seat.'...(Tyler Alexander remembered) 'I probably instigated the conversation with Ron. I thought Michael should have a test drive.' Early in 1991, it happened (Michael tested a McLaren-Honda V-10 at Estoril and, sometime later, signed a "testing contract" with McLaren). When asked shortly afterwards how he'd deal with the extraordinary pressure heaped on an F1 driver in Europe, Andretti had a ready answer, 'Well, yeah, but that's maybe if you live there. But hopefully, I'll be able to do it without living there...Look at what dad did. He not only did that, but he drove Indy cars here and I wouldn't be doing Indy cars. I'd just be coming home, so if he could do it, then I should be able to.'...In September 1992, Ron Dennis flew to Detroit and after a full day of negotiations, announced that Michael would drive for McLaren in 1993, with options for two more years. (During the season) Being just six hours away by plane and willing and ready to fly, day or night, on a moment's notice was commitment in Michael's eyes. It was obviously less to those involved in the self-consciously serious business of Grand Prix racing...(Said Tyler Alexander) 'Senna said to me, "I like the kid. I thought he was quite quick. But, you know, how could he not come over here? That's what you have to do to become involved in this business." It seems, then, that that was Andretti's biggest mistake - not living in Europe and being very much more involved with the team. 15 years before, his father had been able to do that but the times were-a-changin'. If one reads the chapter on Michael Andretti's time in F1, one might conclude that there were some strange things happening, software-wise, to his car, but I think to call it sabotage is going too far. A deliberately sabotaged car has the potential for real danger - to the driver and to all the other drivers and, potentially, to the marshals and even the spectators. That is hard to believe. With the best of intentions, one must believe, Ron Dennis signed Andretti to race for his team - for, possibly, several years. Due to a perceived or real lack of commitment on Andretti's part, it didn't work out.

[Kenaltgr]

Originally posted by zg1972
OK, but what was the difference between specs VI, VII and VIII?
Also, how did the Renault people knew the exact output of Ford engines?

The Ford HBVI was first used in 1992, it's power output was known by 1993, Ron Dennis said 690 horse power during his interview about Williams and Renault.
Renault at the end of the season didn't mention Ford, they just confirmed what horse power their own RS5 engine produced the previous season.

AUTOSPORT Annual Review 1993
Ford HBVI 690BHP
Ford HBVII 705BHP*
Ford HBVIII 720BHP*
Renault RS5 772BHP
Renault RS5C (780bhp) (used from Spa 300 rpm higher)

*note the Benetton Ford engine figures would by slightly higher than McLaren as they used special fuel/oil that was exclusive with the ford contract(worth a few more bhp)

[potmotr]

Originally posted by MickyD

The film crew records MA's phone calls on his comfy sofa at home in the states with his engineer Steve Hallam back in the UK and Michael's body language/tome of voice says it all, i.e. nothing! Then compare him and Senna in team briefings - OK, Senna was a superman but even so, Andretti was a plank in those briefings (what we saw of them anyway).

And a very telling clip is the one where press officer Norman Howell asks Senna if the McLaren's new engine feels different. Senna replies "of course it feels different" and goes on to explain how and why. When Howell asks the same question to Andretti, the response is a pull of the face, shrug of the shoulders and the word "Nah". If Andretti could not notice any difference with a new engine in the back of an F1 car then what on Earth was he doing there?

I've just watched that whole series (having been alerted to it here, thank you all!) and I totally agree with you.

Andretti appeared uncomfortable and well out of his depth.

He didn't appear to be dealing with his situation well at all, having a very negative, shrug-the-shoulders attitude to his misfortune.

Worst of all he appeared unable to articulate his concerns about the car nearly as well as Senna (which we'd expect) but was even shown to be less articulate than Hakkinen, a driver six years younger who doesn't speak English as a first language.

It was interesting to see his (first) wife Sandra. I've read elsewhere that she was a major distraction for Michael that season.

Their relationship was in difficulty, and it was she insisted on living in the U.S. There is a story floating about that she called him on the radio when he was out on the circuit in Hungary to ask where they were going for dinner that evening.

[potmotr]

By the way, what reason was given for Andretti leaving after Monza?

Why wasn't he given the chance to see out the season?

Was he told he wouldn't be staying for 1994 so decided to quit?

Or had Ron finally had enough and decided to shunt him on so he could blood Hakkinen in his team?

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Ralliart
It was obviously less to those involved in the self-consciously serious business of Grand Prix racing...(Said Tyler Alexander) 'Senna said to me, "I like the kid. I thought he was quite quick. But, you know, how could he not come over here? That's what you have to do to become involved in this business."

Senna was only two years older than Andretti. What a strange thing for Ayrton to have said!

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by potmotr
By the way, what reason was given for Andretti leaving after Monza?

Why wasn't he given the chance to see out the season?

Was he told he wouldn't be staying for 1994 so decided to quit?

Or had Ron finally had enough and decided to shunt him on so he could blood Hakkinen in his team?

Ron had promised Hakkinen that he would get to race three times. Ron gave Michael the choice of which three races to let Hakkinen race. He chose to simply leave the last three of the season to him.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


Ron had promised Hakkinen that he would get to race three times. Ron gave Michael the choice of which three races to let Hakkinen race. He chose to simply leave the last three of the season to him.

Really? What an odd arrangement. Was it put in place because the team didn't know what Senna was going to do from race to race?

[MarkWRX]

Originally posted by JtP1
Most of MA's early season crashes were caused by being taken out by other drivers.

If you call running into other cars "being taken out by other people" then you might have a point. I watched every race that season and I have The Team on my computer. Andretti, in some races, looked like an amateur pressed into service - losing it under breaking, not recognizing rate of closure and more than one spinning off all by his lonesome.

Andretti was probably hurt badly by the restrictive testing schedule imposed by the FIA at the time. However, treating his McLaren drive (which was pushed by Marlboro) like an "arrive and drive" race series was stupid beyond belief. He had so much to gain by spending time in the UK, with the team, with the engineers. He could have gone to the tracks and watched other series race on them. He could have spent a lot more time with the engineers going over telemetry - in The Team, he seemed to get glassy eyed looking at the traces, while Mika could discuss each line.

I think McLaren would have been more than willing to let him finish the season had he displayed some willingness to become much more actively involved in the team.

[potmotr]

I must say, The Team is an utterly amazing documentary series for anyone interested in Formula One, particularly when it was awesome, which for me was between 1990 and 1995.

The level of access, the candid nature of most of the interviews, the fly on the wall element of it was just superb,.

I've spent a fair bit of time trawling through youtube over the years looking for stuff I'd not seen.

So catching the doco was a brilliant.

[giacomo]

I never heard of a Formula One team that hired a driver with the intention and the wish to see him fail.

Andretti did not come up to expectations, and that's why they were happy to get rid of him after Monza.

Jo Ramirez told following Senna quote about Andretti in his book:
" 'Look at him, he never approaches a corner the same way as the lap before, he always chooses a different line. He think's he's still in America.' Ayrton, having tested a Champ Car, knew what he was talking about. "

Jo Ramirez again:
"He went to ridiculous lengths in order to be at home, like testing on a Friday at Silverstone, finishing at 17.30 and driving like crazy to Heathrow to catch the 19.00 Concorde to New York, where he had his own plane waiting to take him to Pennsylvania. He'd then repeat the exercise in reverse on Monday, in order to test on Tuesday! We all thought it was lunacy! Apart from the money it was costing him, the fact was that he didn't fully concentrate during the Friday test, and was totally jet-lagged for the Tuesday one."

[PLAYLIFE]

Originally posted by Oho



Hardly, the limit was only imposed on qualifying sessions. If anything actually limited his track time during any given race weekend it was tire quota. What was the tire quota it in 1993? In the late 90's years it was something like 7 sets, which led to very lean Fridays indeed with drivers sparing up to five sets exclusively for qualifying and race. Well perhaps I am on a limb here but track familiarization driving one could do decently even with pretty worn tires.

Qualifying limited to 12 laps per session.

Practice limited to 23 laps per session.

In 1994 drivers were limited to 7 sets for the weekend, possibly was the same in 1993 too.

[GerardF1]

Watching Michael in 93 was painful, he was so obviously out of his depth. While I am sure in his mind he was committed to F1 no one else thought he was.

If he was to have a chance in F1 he had to move to England and work at it. To think that you could compare F1 in 1993 to what happened in 1978 was insanity.

McLaren took a chance with him and it didn’t work out. Seems that McLaren has made that a bit of a habit.

[potmotr]

Originally posted by GerardF1

McLaren took a chance with him and it didn’t work out. Seems that McLaren has made that a bit of a habit.

But they've also made a habit of unearthing winners like Mika Hakkinen and Lewis Hamilton so I guess the duds like Andretti, Montoya and Alonso are worth the pain.

[wide-front-wing]

don't let the fact that both Montoya and Alonso won races driving a Mclaren get in the way of lumping them in with andretti...

[GerardF1]

Originally posted by wide-front-wing
don't let the fact that both Montoya and Alonso won races driving a Mclaren get in the way of lumping them in with andretti...

I certainly wouldn't put Andretti in the same grouping with Montoya or Alonso - other than not making it work at McLaren.

At least with Andretti it was over before the year was.

[big x]

I think it's important to watch the whole series to get things in context, not just episode 2. For example in episode 1 Hakkinen is the hero out-qualifying Senna in his first attempt but in episode six he has severe brain fade in testing and is a second slower than Andretti.
Some things don't change though. Mad Max initially giving Williams and Mclaren only a week in the middle of the season to completely ditch active ride suspension, which the cars were designed around, shows shockingly familiar bias.

http://www.veoh.com/...v427220frAX47jY

[potmotr]

Originally posted by big x

Some things don't change though. Mad Max initially giving Williams and Mclaren only a week in the middle of the season to completely ditch active ride suspension, which the cars were designed around, shows shockingly familiar bias.

You know what, I thought exactly the same thing.

Same smug *******, same bias, same self interest and score settling.

And this was 16 years ago.

[peroa]

Only difference, no internet.

[Anomnader]

Originally posted by big x
[B]Mad Max initially giving Williams and Mclaren only a week in the middle of the season to completely ditch active ride suspension, which the cars were designed around, shows shockingly familiar bias.

Why was that, was a certain team not getting on top of Active suspension? hmmmm which team could that have being...

[MattPete]

Originally posted by giacomo

Jo Ramirez again:
"He went to ridiculous lengths in order to be at home, like testing on a Friday at Silverstone, finishing at 17.30 and driving like crazy to Heathrow to catch the 19.00 Concorde to New York, where he had his own plane waiting to take him to Pennsylvania. He'd then repeat the exercise in reverse on Monday, in order to test on Tuesday! We all thought it was lunacy! Apart from the money it was costing him, the fact was that he didn't fully concentrate during the Friday test, and was totally jet-lagged for the Tuesday one."

Would you leave Sandy home alone with a credit card?

[Ivan]

Originally posted by big x
I think it's important to watch the whole series to get things in context, not just episode 2. For example in episode 1 Hakkinen is the hero out-qualifying Senna in his first attempt but in episode six he has severe brain fade in testing and is a second slower than Andretti.
Some things don't change though. Mad Max initially giving Williams and Mclaren only a week in the middle of the season to completely ditch active ride suspension, which the cars were designed around, shows shockingly familiar bias.

http://www.veoh.com/...v427220frAX47jY

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up. But he still didn't do himself any favours. Listening to Michael in the debriefs was mind blowing. He sounded like he either didn't know what HE was even talking about or he just didn't care.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by big x

Some things don't change though. Mad Max initially giving Williams and Mclaren only a week in the middle of the season to completely ditch active ride suspension, which the cars were designed around, shows shockingly familiar bias.

http://www.veoh.com/...v427220frAX47jY

Actually that interference within the rules was the root for the string of terrible accidents in early 1994.

But nowadays Mosley is praised as the grand master of safety in Formula One...

[Ivan]

Originally posted by giacomo
But nowadays Mosley is praised as the grand master of safety in Formula One...

The Blind leading the Greedy...surely.

[Der Pate]

Originally posted by Ivan

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up. But he still didn't do himself any favours. Listening to Michael in the debriefs was mind blowing. He sounded like he either didn't know what HE was even talking about or he just didn't care.

Do you have examples for those debriefings...???

[potmotr]

Originally posted by Der Pate


Do you have examples for those debriefings...???

Watch this episode. http://www.veoh.com/...v425367fYpnc7NM

[big x]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ivan

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this up. But he still didn't do himself any favours. Listening to Michael in the debriefs was mind blowing. He sounded like he either didn't know what HE was even talking about or he just didn't care. [/QUOTE

It's clear Giorgio Ascanelli was becoming exasperated at Andretti's and Hakkinen's inconsistent test times.
Drop someone like Schumacher into the car and you know the car is being driven to it's maximum potential lap after lap, but with these two it was difficult for the engineers to set a baseline.
The door was left open for Andretti to leave because he offered the team nothing more than a quick rookie could.
There's also a human element involved. Management feel awkward having to tell the basics to a veteran 32 year old driver whereas the young Hakkinen is told off twice like a guilty schoolboy and learns his lesson.

[jrv_t644e]

Can't believe i only just heard about this

Pure Comedy Gold

[Direct Drive]

Marco is a slow and talentless idiot.
Michael made his own decisions about transport and residence, copying his somewhat more successful father. Imagine him living in some small flat near the factory and being there every day! He did show signs of speed: in qualifying early in the year and in finishing on the podium at Monza. A lost talent, for true.
Marco, however, is a mid-fielder at best in IRL, hopeless on the road courses, and shouldn't be allowed in F1.
A sorry end to a storied family.

[potmotr]

I love how this thread lives on...