Jump to content


Photo

Hawthorn's green Ferrari


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Fast One

Fast One
  • Member

  • 600 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 05 February 2000 - 09:26

I really brought this over from a post on the other side, but since much hell has broken loose over there, I was afraid it would be missed.

At the Grand Prix of Argentina in 1953, Enzo Ferrari did Mike Hawthorn the singular honor of painting his works Ferrari British Racing Green for his inaugeral ride. This is somewhat unique in the history of the Scuderia, unless I have missed something. While Gendebien's works Ferrari was painted yellow for the 1958 Belgian Grand Prix (also the GP d'Europe...same race), and one of the works cars was "loaned" to the Equipe de Belge in 1956 and painted yellow (Ferrari was short of drivers after Musso had an accident), I can't think of another instance where Enzo painted a works car in his driver's national colors. Since Argentina wasn't Hawthorn’s home race, but rather his first actual start with the Scuderia, I can think of nothing else quite like it.

We all know about the NART cars in 1964, and Ray mentioned Mairesse's car may also have been painted yellow in Belgium in the early '60's, but does anyone know of another situation like Hawthorn’s? This was not the "Thinwall Special", which Hawthorn only drove once, and that in 1952, but one of the regular works cars. Did Enzo ever say why he did it? I am very curious about this seemingly singular moment.

Advertisement

#2 Don Capps

Don Capps
  • Member

  • 5,933 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 05 February 2000 - 22:44

1959, Sebring, Phil Hill....



------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…



#3 Felix Muelas

Felix Muelas
  • Member

  • 1,207 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 06 February 2000 - 00:18

Fast One

I have more questions than answers on this one, so let’s recap for the sake of good order.
a) First mention of The Green-painted Ferrari seems to have been related to the Modena Grand Prix 1952 , where Hawthorn, having been caught in the middle of a move inspired by Tony Vandervell in conversation with Enzo Ferrari that had as scenery the Italian Grand Prix a week before, was offered a Ferrari for that race. It is in this context that everybody mentions the detail of Ferrari offering to paint one of his cars in green.
b) Then we have the Thursday untimed practice session, where Hawthorn tried the car. The 500-003, to be precise. He loved the car, and agreed more or less to drive it for the weekend. In this context, Ugolini probably mentioned the question of the colour of the car for the first time, as Hawthorn himself recalls : “Right”- they said, “Come along tomorrow for your official practice. We´ll paint the car green for you –as green is the British racing colour”.
c) I quote Hawthorn again (all this in page 46 of “Challenge Me the Race”, William Kimber, London, July 1958) : “I went next day for practice and Ascari and Villoresi were there and there was only one car. Obviously, they had a practice first. While this was going on, my father said : “Why not take the Cooper round and just compare it – see how it goes?” I asked Ugolini, and he said : “Certainly, by all means, take it round and we´ll let you know when the Ferrari is ready for you”
d) And then was when Hawthorn had his accident (that he himself recognizes it was due to his own mistake trying to use the “Ferrari” braking point as learnt the day before with the Cooper.
e) So, does it looks as if Hawthorn never actually drove the green-painted Ferrari that weekend ? Well, that sounds like the very logical conclusion to extract, anyway.
f) Then comes Xmas, Hawthorn recovers and the Argentine Grand Prix is going to be his first race for Ferrari. Of course Hawthorn tells us about, but there is no mention whatsoever of the green-painted Ferrari. What a strange fact, as one will imagine that he would have recalled such an odd circumstance, as he did with the Modena suggestion by Ugolini.
g) Of course this is curious if only because someone else does recall such fact, namely Chris Nixon (page 45, Mon Ami Mate, 1991) “Enzo Ferrari had paid Mike the compliment of having his car painted green for the race…”
h) No other source of the ones that I have consulted recalls this particular point and, whilst one gathers that they should have –because of the objective curiosity of the fact- I leave the door open to Nixon’s version, and to yours, by the way. I don´t think I have “seen” the Ferrari 500 in green, and the only supporting evidence so far are b&w pictures on which I cannot build a theory. I am not discussing the reality of the green-painted Ferrari (if only because a simple picture in colour would prove me wrong forever) but I am very curious about the circumstances, including the absolute lack of acknowledgement of the same by usual chronists.

Someone out there with a flashlight?
Un abrazo
Felix
The 8W Team


------------------


#4 Fast One

Fast One
  • Member

  • 600 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 06 February 2000 - 07:29

Nixon was my source, too. I must admit, in the B & W photos I've seen, the car doesn't look darker than its teammates. I don't know why I care, but I love getting wrapped up in little oddities like this. I guess they make an era I missed seem more "real" to me. Maybe eventualyy we will get to the bottom of this. I wonder if there is some "colorized" footage of the 1953 Argintine race. If there is, that would settle it.

#5 Ian McKean

Ian McKean
  • Member

  • 480 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 07 February 2000 - 06:59

When Williams won the first Monaco GP in a Bugatti in 1930, his car was painted green. But this probably does not count because I don't think it was a works entry. According to W. F. Bradley's book on Bugatti, which I recently found in my bookcase after many years, he joined the works team at the 1931 French GP at Monthlery.

I was quite wrong when I suggested in another reply on another thread that Williams may have been Bugatti's test driver. According to Bradley he mainly occupied himself with his kennels at La Baule ...

Ian


#6 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,124 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 07 February 2000 - 08:25

Talking about green Ferraris, take a look at http://www.readysoft...er/ferrari5.jpg Can anyone identify the car on the picture? It looks like a Ferrari 375 but why is it painted green?

#7 Fast One

Fast One
  • Member

  • 600 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 07 February 2000 - 08:43

I don't know, but Hawthorn’s car carried #16 in the race in Argentina. It was a 500, and had a different front end.

#8 Stephen Herbert

Stephen Herbert
  • New Member

  • 18 posts
  • Joined: January 00

Posted 07 February 2000 - 10:10

Could the car in the picture have been driven by Peter Whitehead?

#9 Duane

Duane
  • Member

  • 271 posts
  • Joined: May 99

Posted 08 February 2000 - 00:08

Is that the first of Vandervell's 'Thinwall Specials'?

#10 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 76,175 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 08 February 2000 - 04:43

Whitehead had a 1949/51 (F1/114) which had a larger engine (2-litres) fitted for the New Zealand races of 1954. If this was green, it could very likely be this car. Sounds a bit tricky, though, with swing axle rear suspension!
And it definitely wasn't suited to the narrow section of the roads used in the 1954 Australian Grand Prix at Southport (Surfers Paradise to you), where at two points the organisers declared 'no passing' zones. Dick Cobden, while leading this race in the car, arrived on the heels of another car entering one such zone and lost it trying to get by in time. Ferrari had to wait another three years to win this race.

#11 karlcars

karlcars
  • Member

  • 655 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 15 February 2000 - 06:39

The green Ferrari shown by member Snellman is definitely the Whitehead car, photographed in the Donington Collection. I believe I am right in saying that this is the first G.P. car that Tom Wheatcroft acquired, the nucleus of his great collection. It is indeed an early swing-axle chassis which was raced with both unblown 2-litre and blown 1.5-litre V-12s.

------------------
Karl Ludvigsen


#12 Dennis David

Dennis David
  • Member

  • 2,479 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 15 February 2000 - 09:31

If there is any of you living in England or thinking of visiting you must visit the Donington Collection. It is really something special for the single seater fan as I think that he has the largest collection anywhere. http://www.ddavid.co...ula1/doning.htm

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/



#13 Leif Snellman

Leif Snellman
  • Member

  • 1,124 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 15 February 2000 - 18:24

Thank you Mr Ludvigsen for taking your time to answer my question. It is greatly appreciated. Yes, I know realize that it is indeed Whitehead's Ferrari 125, the winner of the 1949 "Masarykuv Okruh". My mistake of identifying the car as a Tipo 375 sent me on a totally wrong track. I have never realized how alike those two types really were.

#14 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,506 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 13 July 2002 - 11:44

Rather than start a new thread, I thought I would tag this question onto the this thread, it being aimed at GREEN and FERRARI, although not Hawthorn.

Viewing Roger Clark's 'Gentlemean's etc etc etc' I am sure I remember seeing a glimpse of Reg Parnell standing by a green Ferrari 500 at Silverstone. I see from Darren's site that Reg drove a 500 in the 1954 International Trophy Race; however, the car was entered by Scuderia Ambrosiana, so I'm not sure if this one would have been green.

I really would like to know if and where Reg ever did drive a green 500.

#15 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 13 July 2002 - 14:56

Interesting that Scuderia Ambrosisna is mentioned, because I just found Carlo Leto do Priolo after trying to find anyone of the brothers for the last 6-7 years! He is 81 years young.

Scuderia Ambrosiana did not have an "official" color, as the cars were owned by the team members, and not "directly" by the team.

Elio Zagato's personal race cars (he was a memeber of The Scuderia) were generally dark silver with red flashes above the headlamps (on cars like the Fiat 8V).

Fiat 8V Zagato S/N 00002 was dark blue with black rocker panels.

Fiat 8V Zagato S/N 00062 was all red, and is currently in Belgium, being restored. This is the MOST important of all of the 8VZs. It ran in the '55 and '56 MMs. In 1957 it won it's class after being sold by the original owner (Vesely), to Acutis, finishing 34th overall.

The Leto do Priolo Giulietta Sprint that went off the bridge in the Mille Miglia and was later rebodied by Zagato (the first SVZ) was white....

I do not know of any Scuderia Ambrosiana cars or later Scuderia St.Ambroeus cars (Scuderia Ambrosiana and Scuderia St.Ambroeus were joined in the late 50s or early 60s) that was green.

I do, however, vaguely remember a dark green Ferrari 500 F2 car....

Stu

#16 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 13 July 2002 - 18:41

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I am sure I remember seeing a glimpse of Reg Parnell standing by a green Ferrari 500 at Silverstone. I see from Darren's site that Reg drove a 500 in the 1954 International Trophy Race; however, the car was entered by Scuderia Ambrosiana, so I'm not sure if this one would have been green.
I really would like to know if and where Reg ever did drive a green 500.

Reg Parnell raced a Ferrari 625 in F1 races throughout 1954: excluding heats, he took five wins and two second places in these events.
The car was indeed entered by Scuderia Ambrosiana, but I'm sure we have discussed before this the 'British branch' of the team as a probable means of avoiding charges that would otherwise be due on imports of racing cars.
Being British-owned, the car was BRG, at least for some of its races.
Parnell's record with the car in 1954 was:
1st Lavant Cup F1 race Goodwood 19/4
3rd Chichester Cup libre race Goodwood 19/4
DNF Glover Trophy libre race Goodwood 19/4
2nd in heat, DNF final International Trophy 15/5
1st in heat, 2nd final Aintree 200 29/5
1st F1 race Goodwood 7/6
1st in heat, 1st final Crystal Palace F1 Trophy 19/6
DNF British Grand Prix 17/7
1st in heat, 1st final F1 August Trophy F1 Crystal Palace 2/8
2nd F1 Oulton Park Gold Cup 7/8
1st F1 race Snetterton 14/8
DNF Joe Fry Memorial Trophy F1 race Castle Combe 28/8
DNF F1 Goodwood Trophy 25/9
3rd Aintree 2/10
DNF Daily Telegraph Trophy race Aintree 2/10

#17 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 14 July 2002 - 02:19

David (and all)

I didn't know that Parnell was affiliated with Scuderia Ambrosiana. I know that there was really no "official" membership, so in a way, anyone could belong..

Stu

#18 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 14 July 2002 - 13:47

Here's something I just discovered in my archive and I don't want to keep it from you; it's a report about the '53 Argentine GP in Autosport. It's only a greyscale picture but take a look at the caption.

Posted Image

Maybe this is a case for Barry Boor who recently painted a 500 F2 blue to create a Rosier Ferrari. :D

#19 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,506 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 14 July 2002 - 16:01

Thanks, Mac. You've made an old man very happy AND, quite possibly a touch better off too, in a few week's time! :lol:

Advertisement

#20 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 15 July 2002 - 11:40

Thanks!

I didn't know about any connection between Mike Hawthorn and the Scuderia Ambrosiana! :eek:

Of course, Johnny Lurani, being an Anglophile, could have given the "honor" of membership to other Englishmen.

Maybe people like Moss and Collins and some others were members too.

I would REALLY appreciate if someone who knows Moss and some of the others who are still living (on a presonal level) would follow this up!

Stu

The world seems to get smaller every day...

#21 Ray Bell

Ray Bell
  • Member

  • 76,175 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 15 July 2002 - 11:46

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Thanks, Mac. You've made an old man very happy AND, quite possibly a touch better off too, in a few week's time! :lol:


Old man?

About whom do you speak here, young Barry?

#22 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 15 July 2002 - 14:58

Originally posted by dretceterini
I didn't know about any connection between Mike Hawthorn and the Scuderia Ambrosiana!

This is a joke, right?

Originally posted by dretceterini
Of course, Johnny Lurani, being an Anglophile, could have given the "honor" of membership to other Englishmen.

Did you read the second paragraph of my post (16) above?

#23 dretceterini

dretceterini
  • Member

  • 2,991 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 16 July 2002 - 22:19

Yes, and PRIOR to your post, I did NOT know Hawthorn was a member of the Scuderia Ambrosiana...

Thanks,
Stu

#24 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 17 July 2002 - 05:12

Sorry Stu, we still seem to be in a state of some confusion
Hawthorn was not a member of Scuderia Ambrosiana and my post does not say he was

#25 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
  • Member

  • 11,506 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 10 August 2002 - 06:44

....and while we are talking about 'funny' coloured works Ferraris, how many people have forgotten (me included, until the other day) that at Sebring in 1959, Phil Hill drove one that looked like this:
Posted Image
This is an image of a model made by an Italian company called Tron. Very expensive but beautiful models. (I don't have any of them! :( )

#26 McRonalds

McRonalds
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 10 August 2002 - 21:25

@Barry: It's really close to reality. And of course one of the most curious paintworks ever to appear on a works Ferrari.
Posted Image

#27 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,568 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 12 January 2009 - 23:08

Can I resurrect this old thread? It seems to be the start of the green Ferrari story on TNF which has been carried on into other threads. Has it ever been confirmed that Hawthorn DID have a green Ferrari in Argentina in 1953?

I know that the Autosport report says so, as does Mon Ami Mate .

However, I have just been reading Anthony Pritchard's Grand Prix Ferrari which was written in 1974. he says the Argentine car had a green nose-band. He makes no clear statement about the car's colour at Siracusa where Ascari took over the car, or Pau, but does say that Hawthorn buckled the nose in practice. On its next appearance at the Daily Express Trophy Pritchard says Hawthorn drove a "brutal-looking all-red car (no longer the green nose-band)".

The only photos I have of the Argentine GP is of the start and as Mike fluffed his start his car is hardly visible and the picture in Lang of Hawthorn with no other car for comparison but no trace of a different coloured nose..

So can anybody confirm whether it was green or had a green nose-band or was just plain rosso corsa in Argentina and subsequently at Siracusa or Pau?

#28 Roger Clark

Roger Clark
  • Member

  • 7,357 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:15

There is a very clear picture in the Tanner/Nye Ferrari history and a less clear one in the Autosport race report. The latter is probably the one posted by McRonalds on post 18 of this thread but now disappeared. Neither look as though the nose is a different colour from the rest of the car.

#29 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:01

Purely for the record this was the first Green Ferrari Mike Hawthorn ever raced. The Thinwall Ferrari at Turnberry in Scotland. It was also the first occasion he ever raced a Ferrari.

Posted Image

#30 my_own_shadow

my_own_shadow
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:34

Formula Libre race on 23.08.53, right?

#31 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:41

"Ferrari 1947-1953 Automobili" of Orsini and Milanta has B&W pictures of both starts of the Argentina GP (WDC, 18 jan 1953) and the Gran Premio Ciudad Buenos Aires (1 feb 1953). In these shots the 500 F2 (both races #16) can be seen. Sometime with B&W pictures one can spot the difference between a green and red car. In both these pictures it is quite difficult. Sunshine, distance between the cars and the hand crafted body panels make it difficult to be certain. For sure all Ferrari did not have a colored band on the nose or other distinction marks. In the formula libre race, Ascari raced a full red 375.

This site shows a different angle of the start. Dust prevents us from identifying clearly second row starter Hawthorn. However the picture at the bottom of the page shows a row of Masers and Ferrari #10. What is that dark car behind the three Ferrari (I presume)?
http://www.f1-web.co...argentina53.htm

#32 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:45

Originally posted by my_own_shadow
Formula Libre race on 23.08.53, right?


1952

#33 Pullman99

Pullman99
  • Member

  • 829 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:48

Just browisng this at lunchtime!

The Thinwall Ferrari is a highly important car fow many reasons and one that always fascinated me when I was first bitten by the morosport bug although I never saw it raced. There is some colour footage of the Turnberry meeting to which Graham Gauld refers. This is some 16mm film shot by a Mr Anderson (who owned the Rootes dealdership Anderson of Newton Mearns). He also built a series of specials including a highly developed mid-engined car, based on Humber running gear. It was eventually donated to the Glasgow Museum of Transport. Mr Anderson's films were donated to the Scottish film archive in around 1980 although some material was also copied for the film archive at the National Motor Museum including the Turnberry race. I was driven on the airfield a number of times by my uncle who lived in Ayrshire and was active in rallying. As a small child, occasionally "helping" at Conrols, I didn't know that I was following in the wheeltracks of such greats as Mike Hawthorn. Incidentally, this the V16 BRM also raced against the Thinwall Ferrari at that meeting and was driven (I think) by Ken Wharton - but it's ages since I've seen the footage!

Hope that may add a little to the story.

#34 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:17

Reference Turnberry in 1952 the two BRMs were driven by Reg Parnell and Ken Wharton Also the observant ones may have noticed in the background of the photo Bill Dobson is in the Formula 2 short wheelbase Ferrari that Peter Whitehead oncce owned. And if you are seriously curious the man on the left with arms behind his back is Tony Vandervell and Cliff Davis is standing beside him.
Regarding James Anderson he was one of three brothers who owned the Rootes Agency for south Glasgow and were based at Newton Mearns. James was never truly involved in the garage but was a very skilled inventor and came up with one or two interesting ideas. His brother Maurice Anderson was a regular winner of the Concours de Comfort in the Monte Carlo Rally with his Hillman saloon being fitted out with things like a wash hand basin and the like.
I am scanning a lot of my old stuff just now and have a pic of the Special he built with his own engine made up using two Humber engines in a Vee. He was a great character and he was fascinated by cine photography and invented his own projector. I spent an afternoon with him looking at lot of his historic films.

#35 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:30

Dear Mr. Gauld, thank you so much for sharing all! Truly invaluable.

#36 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 13 January 2009 - 15:47

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Reference Turnberry in 1952 the two BRMs were driven by Reg Parnell and Ken Wharton Also the observant ones may have noticed in the background of the photo Bill Dobson is in the Formula 2 short wheelbase Ferrari that Peter Whitehead oncce owned. And if you are seriously curious the man on the left with arms behind his back is Tony Vandervell and Cliff Davis is standing beside him.
Regarding James Anderson he was one of three brothers who owned the Rootes Agency for south Glasgow and were based at Newton Mearns. James was never truly involved in the garage but was a very skilled inventor and came up with one or two interesting ideas. His brother Maurice Anderson was a regular winner of the Concours de Comfort in the Monte Carlo Rally with his Hillman saloon being fitted out with things like a wash hand basin and the like.
I am scanning a lot of my old stuff just now and have a pic of the Special he built with his own engine made up using two Humber engines in a Vee. He was a great character and he was fascinated by cine photography and invented his own projector. I spent an afternoon with him looking at lot of his historic films.


And Reg Parnell won the race for BRM after Mike had sportingly delayed the start while mechanics did a last minute repair job on Reg's V16.

#37 simonlewisbooks

simonlewisbooks
  • Member

  • 2,118 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 13 January 2009 - 16:21

Originally posted by Eric Dunsdon


And Reg Parnell won the race for BRM after Mike had sportingly delayed the start while mechanics did a last minute repair job on Reg's V16.

Posted Image

#38 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 January 2009 - 16:44

For added interest and to confirm above here are the cars on the start line with Ken Wharton in his BRM and Reg Parnell - back to camera - talking to him whilst the mechanics work on it. Peter Berthon is in the centre of the picture and you can just see the nose of Hawthorn's Thinwall on the right. In the background is Tony Gaze with the Maserati.

Posted Image

#39 bradbury west

bradbury west
  • Member

  • 6,021 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:19

[i]Originally posted by Graham Gauld
....a pic of the Special he built with his own engine made up using two Humber engines in a Vee.]

Graham, is that the special with the flat 8 engine and some variation of a cross-linked hydraulic suspension, or some such, which enabled a wheel to stand free of the ground? I know he built more than one device. It rings a bell from an old Motor Sport years ago, just because it was so different and ingenious.
Roger Lund

Advertisement

#40 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 13 January 2009 - 18:28

You are quite correct Roger it was a flat 8 and not a V I will look out the photo and place it

#41 my_own_shadow

my_own_shadow
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:01

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
For added interest and to confirm above here are the cars on the start line with Ken Wharton in his BRM and Reg Parnell - back to camera - talking to him whilst the mechanics work on it. Peter Berthon is in the centre of the picture and you can just see the nose of Hawthorn's Thinwall on the right. In the background is Tony Gaze with the Maserati.

Posted Image

I presume that should be an Era in the backgroung with #48 painted on the tail. Is there any chance to see the entry list for the event? Maybe an official program of the meeting is available. On the same day there was F2 race as well - I National Trophy. I also compared lap times in both F2 and FL events: Mike was the fastest among F2 cars (1'20" was his pole position time) and in F. Libre one (he clocked 1'16" that became the fastest lap in the race).

#42 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:50

Originally posted by my_own_shadow

I presume that should be an Era in the backgroung with #48 painted on the tail. Is there any chance to see the entry list for the event? Maybe an official program of the meeting is available. On the same day there was F2 race as well - I National Trophy. I also compared lap times in both F2 and FL events: Mike was the fastest among F2 cars (1'20" was his pole position time) and in F. Libre one (he clocked 1'16" that became the fastest lap in the race).


Yes ERA R4D driven by Ron Flockhart...Was it Cliff Davis who described this race as being "The Haggis Bashers Grand Prix"?.

#43 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 14 January 2009 - 11:36

Reference the last two posts where there is speculation that my identification of the car on the Tunrberry grid as Tony Gaze in his Maserati should somehow be an ERA. It is silly make guesses as to what the car is and to prove that I was correct the car is Number 51 and is Tony Gaze's Maserati.
So that nobody makes any more mistakes about this race here is the entry list.
In the event Billy Skelly with his single seater F2 Frazer Nash, one of only three built, the other two went to Ken Wharton and Dick Odlum - did not notice that Denis Poore had stalled his Connaught and Billy ran up- the back of the Connaught eliminating both.
Note that Ron Flockhard and Alastair Birrell - who raced as Alba Union - both had ERAs. Ron and Alastair had originally owned R1A between them but around May 1952 Ron was able to buy the ex-Mays ERA R4D and so both were entered under the team banner. The day after Ron arrived back in Edinburgh with his prize he rang me and told me to get over to his house in Bruntsfield right away as he had something special to show me. When there he threw open the garage doors and there was R4D not looking as smart and resplendant as it is today but the real thing. ( In case another thread starts, no Alastair Birrell from Edinburgh was no relation to either Graham or Gerry Birrell from Glasgow.)

Posted Image

#44 my_own_shadow

my_own_shadow
  • Member

  • 216 posts
  • Joined: August 03

Posted 14 January 2009 - 18:43

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Reference the last two posts where there is speculation that my identification of the car on the Tunrberry grid as Tony Gaze in his Maserati should somehow be an ERA. It is silly make guesses as to what the car is and to prove that I was correct the car is Number 51 and is Tony Gaze's Maserati.

I see Gaze's Maserati. But I have meant Flockhart's ERA at the background. See it marked with green colour here:

Posted Image

And thank you for the entry list :up:

#45 Graham Gauld

Graham Gauld
  • Member

  • 1,220 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 14 January 2009 - 19:00

Can I borrow your eyes for a few years ? Wow

#46 RCH

RCH
  • Member

  • 1,094 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:38

I am a newcomer to this forum so please do not shoot me down in flames if this has been said before or whatever!

Someone mentioned Tony Vandervell in relation to the question of the colour of Hawthorn's Ferrari. Purely conjecture but presumably Mr. V was aware of Stirling Moss's experience of being offered a drive by Ferrari and maybe made a "contribution" to ease Mike's path into the Ferrari team? Perhaps part of the deal was the car would be painted green so that Mike wouldn't be driving one of "those bloody red cars"?

Fast forward to 1961 did not Gendebien drive a yellow 156 at Spa? I seem to remember reading just after this (as an avid 11 year old enthusiast) that Ferrari had plans to enter an extra car at subsequent GPs for a driver of the nationality of the race painted in that country's racing colour. Trintignant was mentioned for Reims and Moss for Aintree. We know this never happened, am I totally misrembering or was this actually written somewhere?

#47 Bauble

Bauble
  • Member

  • 1,040 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 25 January 2009 - 10:13

At the British Grand Prix meeting 1953, a Formula Libre race ended the day's racing and amongst the entries was Mike Hawthorn Scuderia Ferrari number 20. In the programme it is listed as a 4500cc car, but what turned up was a F2 model with a 2.5 litre engine, being tested for the change of formula in 1954. Advance publicity said the car would be painted green especially for Mike. In the race it only lasted four laps before retiring with engine trouble, the race was won by Farina in the 'Thinwall' Ferrari. My memory tells me the car was green, however, I would not put money on it - it was 55 years ago!!

Jog any memories?

NB: Horace Richards was also entered in a 1954cc HAR. The programme cost 2/ shillings!!

#48 Eric Dunsdon

Eric Dunsdon
  • Member

  • 1,021 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 25 January 2009 - 14:27

Originally posted by Bauble
At the British Grand Prix meeting 1953, a Formula Libre race ended the day's racing and amongst the entries was Mike Hawthorn Scuderia Ferrari number 20. In the programme it is listed as a 4500cc car, but what turned up was a F2 model with a 2.5 litre engine, being tested for the change of formula in 1954. Advance publicity said the car would be painted green especially for Mike. In the race it only lasted four laps before retiring with engine trouble, the race was won by Farina in the 'Thinwall' Ferrari. My memory tells me the car was green, however, I would not put money on it - it was 55 years ago!!

Jog any memories?

NB: Horace Richards was also entered in a 1954cc HAR. The programme cost 2/ shillings!!


Thank you for confirming my memory of Mike Hawthorn's 2.5 Litre Ferrari being green in that race. I remember him leading the field through Copse just after the start of the 50 mile race but being passed by Farina in the Thinwall-Ferrari during the first lap. Farina set the first ever 100mph race lap on his way to a comfortable win ahead of Fangio and Wharton on the V16 BRM's. I believe that Ron Flockhart was 4th on ERA R4D. My only other memory is of Austen Nurse spinning his HWM into the safety bank just in front of us. No 1950's Formula Libre race was complete without Horace Richards HAR. I am not sure if, or where he finished but his fastest race lap was 2.13 as compared to Farina's 1.45.2.