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Gemini Mk2


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#1 hatrat

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 11:44

A friend and I have just acquired a Gemini MK2 Formula Junior from the USA and it appears to be an early version (exposed carburators and forward front shock mounting).
We understand that the first two Geminis (after the Moorland) were exported to the USA without racing in the UK. Does anyone have any records of early Gemini racing in the USA and is there any additional ways that early versions of the MK2 can be identified.

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#2 mike faloon

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:11

Duncan Rabagliati at the Formula Junior Register Is the man to contact; he is the font of all knowledge on these cars.

#3 Miles Fenton

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:40

I used to own the Gemeni Mk 2 Number 024 that was brought over to the US by Pete Loveley.
I did a restoration and raced it in vintage events.
If you want more info, photos etc, contact me at fenton50@shaw.ca

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:05

Geminis were raced in North America in 1960 by Jordan King (northeast), Jim Parkinson (California), Richard Lake (Canadian west coast) and D Furlong, but I can't help with your main questions

#5 David Birchall

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 00:43

Originally posted by hatrat
A friend and I have just acquired a Gemini MK2 Formula Junior from the USA and it appears to be an early version (exposed carburators and forward front shock mounting).
We understand that the first two Geminis (after the Moorland) were exported to the USA without racing in the UK. Does anyone have any records of early Gemini racing in the USA and is there any additional ways that early versions of the MK2 can be identified.


I don't think there are any "records" of Geminis racing in the US. I owned the Gemini that Miles Fenton mentions above and also an Elva 100 front engined junior. The Gemini was superior in almost every way. Beautifully made. If you can find a copy of "Formula Junior" by Harry Morrow it will give some insight into the difference in perspective between British and European racers and their US counterparts re early Formula Junior.

Do you have a serial number? Where did your car come from? What engine?

#6 hatrat

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 02:09

The Gemini hasn't got a serial number although I understand that only about 10 of the production of around 30 (?) had serial numbers. It has a BMC Speedwell motor and came from Texas although the two previous owners, Ugo Piccagli and Kermit O'Neal, couldn't help with prior ownership. Naturally we are very keen to get some leads on its history.

#7 RA Historian

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 03:06

Wasn't the F-Jr race at Sebring in March, 1961, won by a Gemini? Charlie Kolb?

Also IIRC Ed Leslie won a race or two in one on the West Coast. But then again, this is my faulty memory.

Tom

#8 JB Miltonian

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 20:56

Pete Lovely owned a Gemini F-Jr ?

#9 David Birchall

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 01:34

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Pete Lovely owned a Gemini F-Jr ?


Pete imported it, apparently as a commercial proposition-he never raced it. The car was sold to a local (Seattle) driver who only raced it once or twice and then the car sat until the early eighties when somebody unearthed the car and brought it to Westwood for the Historic Weekend. I had just sold my Elva FJ and wanted something different so encouraged Miles Fenton to buy it, which he did. A couple of years later I decided I would like it, made Miles an offer he didn't refuse and raced the car for two more seasons before selling it to Buddy Cooperburg in Nue Joisey.

#10 hatrat

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 11:14

As part of trying to differentiate between the early Gemini Mk2 cars I'm looking for photos of either Graham Warner (car #106) or Ian Raby (car #34) in the Chequered Flag Geminis at Brands Hatch on 4 October 1959 and also Jim Clark (car #30) at Brands Hatch on Boxing Day 1959 - his first single seater race. Any help greatly appreciated.

#11 David McKinney

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 19:14

There's a picture of Raby (34) on page 425 of the 1/4/60 Autosport

#12 Sharman

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 20:19

Have a look at the Chunky and Len programme, the subject of much teeth gnashing on this forum, there is a Gemini shown in that for some unfathomable reason.
Tony Goodwin is running a Mk 2 perhaps he can help with some history
John

#13 Graham Gauld

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Posted 24 June 2008 - 21:53

Hatrat

About ten years ago at the Laguna Seca historics I came across an interesting Gemini Formula Junior. I might not have given it a second glance save for the fact that there was a worn brass plate on top of the cockpit. One of the photos shows where it was placed and the second one is an enlargement of the plaque which says " Driven by Jim Clark Boxing Day 1959 Brands Hatch. England"
The owner of the car was an ageing American oil wildcatter called Lou Canut who did not seem to be the type to over egg the omelete and he claimed this was the actual Gemini.
Perhaps someone else in the States has met up with Lou and with the car and can let us know whether Lou is still around and any more details.


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#14 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 06:23

As David says, there was a Rich (Dick) Lake from Seattle who raced a Gemini in 1961. Presumably this was the one Pete Lovely imported. Hopefully Pete will be at Martin Rudow's book launch on July 4 and I can ask him.

As for the Kolb and Leslie Geminis, weren't they rear-engined Mk 3s?

John Chisholm and Tony Goodwin were both running Mk 2s at Monaco. Chisholm's car looked like I remember them, while Goodwin's car looked different to me (but fast...he finished second!)

Another one here:

http://www.tamsoldra...leFjrsLS61.html

And this photo from Mosport, June 19, 1965. I believe that is a Cooper off the track which went on to win the Formula race...but the other car looks "Geminish" to me...any ideas?

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Photo by Ted Langton-Adams, copyright Eric Faulks

Vince H.

#15 silicanza

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 08:52

The green Gemini Mk 2 with badge saying raced by Jim Clark is with another owner now. Still in California, currently under restoration, Carries chassis plate #7. Ford engined. See if I can post a photo.

#16 Pedro 917

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 10:09

There's a colour picture (Graham Gauld) of Jim Clark in the Gemini # 30, Brands Hatch 1959, in Historic Racing of November 1994. Great magazine but only a couple of issues were published. What happened to this magazine?

#17 hatrat

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:32

"The green Gemini Mk 2 with badge saying raced by Jim Clark is with another owner now. Still in California, currently under restoration, Carries chassis plate #7. Ford engined."

From the Mike Beuttler article of February 1962 I don't think Clark's Gemini Mk2 at the Boxing Day 1959 Brands Hatch meeting was Ford powered. There were two Chequered Flag Geminis entered - one for Jim Clark and the other for Graham Warner. Warner's had a new Cosworth Ford while Clark's was BMC powered. Warner had a flywheel depart from the Ford engine in practice resulting in "sending the car off the road in a big way. It was impossible to repair it before the race". The Ford engine was then lent to Team Lotus for their new Lotus 18 to use in the race.

#18 Graham Gauld

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 11:47

Ok I think we should clear this one up right away.

There were two Ford Cosworth engines prepred for Brands Hatch in 1959, one for the new Lotus 18 for Alan Stacey to drive and one for the Chequered Flag car Jim Clark was to drive. In practice Stacey blew up the "Lotus" engine and Cosworth decided that the Chequered Flag engine should be removed from Clark's car and put into the Lotus 18 chassis for Alan Stacey to race.
An Austin engine was put back into Clark's Gemini and he raced with that.
I even have a photograph of Clark's Gemini with the engine removed and waiting for the Austin engine to be replaced.

#19 David Birchall

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:36

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Ok I think we should clear this one up right away.

There were two Ford Cosworth engines prepred for Brands Hatch in 1959, one for the new Lotus 18 for Alan Stacey to drive and one for the Chequered Flag car Jim Clark was to drive. In practice Stacey blew up the "Lotus" engine and Cosworth decided that the Chequered Flag engine should be removed from Clark's car and put into the Lotus 18 chassis for Alan Stacey to race.
An Austin engine was put back into Clark's Gemini and he raced with that.
I even have a photograph of Clark's Gemini with the engine removed and waiting for the Austin engine to be replaced.


So presumably the/a Ford engine could have been installed again at any time later. I have photos of the ex Clark car taken at Portland Historics in about 1987 with my Gemini alongside-unfortunately we are in the middle (Literally!) of moving house right now....

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#20 Graham Gauld

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:43

Absolutely : Remember it was the engine to have and later in the year I have a photo of Geoff Duke in a Gemini on the starting grid at Silverstone and I think it is the same car and I have always assumed it had a Ford engine.

#21 hatrat

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 19:49

Thanks Graham for that clarification. So I presume Graham Warner did start the race with a BMC engined car or did Warner's BMC go into the Clark car?

#22 RA Historian

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 02:02

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
As for the Kolb and Leslie Geminis, weren't they rear-engined Mk 3s?
Vince H.

OK, I'll plead some ignorance here. When I mentioned Kolb and Leslie a number of posts above, I was definitely thinking rear engine cars, not front. I take it that Mk 2s were front, and the subject of this thread, and Mk 3s were rear and off the subject. Sorry for the tangent!
Tom

#23 RAP

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 07:12

Originally posted by hatrat
Thanks Graham for that clarification. So I presume Graham Warner did start the race with a BMC engined car or did Warner's BMC go into the Clark car?


Warner did not start the race.



#24 silicanza

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 11:55

I understand Graham warner restores Planes? Perhaps he could clear up the Boxing day Ford engine events.
Len Terry designed the Moorland and I understand he is still with us.
What happened to Leslie Redmond who refined the Moorland design into the Gemini Mk2 for Cheguered flag?

#25 Sharman

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 10:27

Les Redmond went on to design the Gwynniad for Jim Diggory of Wrexham Scool of Motoring fame. I met him when Nick Cussons bought the old Diggory Garage in Wrexham, don't know if he is still with us but he must be over 85 now if he is.

#26 hatrat

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 00:47

To update this thread, Graham Warner (in car #29) did enter the Brands Hatch Boxing Day 1959 meeting with a Ford Cosworth engine in his Gemini (it must have been one of the first outings for a Cosworth engine - I have the original invoice for the engine from Cosworth to The Chequered Flag). Jim Clark (in car #30) had a BMC motor in both practice and the race. In practice the Ford motor in Warner's car threw a flywheel which caused the car to crash - this ruling it out from the race. In the paddock the Cosworth engine from Warner's Gemini was transferred to the Lotus 18 which was having it's first race with an effectively standard Ford Anglia engine. However the Gemini Cosworth engine had a lower sump than the Ford Anglia engine that had been fitted to the Lotus and this caused problems with the Lotus 18 in the race.
I have a number of photos of both Warner's and Clark's cars including the damaged Gemini and the paddock transfer. We are putting together a web page history of the Moorland and early Gemini cars and these photos will soon feature on that site.

#27 David Birchall

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 04:30

I promised photos a year ago-here they are:
At Portland with my/Miles car serial #024 next to the car reputed to be the car driven by Jim Clark at Brands

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And the car at home and with an example of what happens to a Speedwell motor after you go over 7000 once too often even if you are being chased by a Testa Rossa!

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#28 hatrat

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 05:59

Great photos David!
Note that you commented on the car reputably driven by Jim Clark. The car shown has a Ford engine and the car Jim drove had a BMC engine. Here is a photo of it - if it had a Ford there would be Webers protruding through the bonnet.
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#29 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 06:34

The following information is by way of Nedra Ware:

Duncan Forlong of Tampa, Florida raced a Gemini Mk 2 around his state in 1960, including the Dunnellon feature on January 17 [6th overall, beaten by the Elva FJ of Inge Johnstone in 5th, with sportsracers in the top four positions]

The February 1960 issue of the SCCA Regional newsletter Pit Patter mentioned that Duncan planned to take his car to Havana for the Freedom Speed Week, a.k.a. the Cuban GP.

Not sure if he ever did.



#30 cdrewett

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 08:34

My old friend Roger Ealand is shipping his Gemini over from Oz to race at Goodwood Revival. I know it's front engined but have no more detail. Possibly one of our experts down under knows more.
Chris


#31 hatrat

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 11:27

The following information is by way of Nedra Ware:

Duncan Forlong of Tampa, Florida raced a Gemini Mk 2 around his state in 1960, including the Dunnellon feature on January 17 [6th overall, beaten by the Elva FJ of Inge Johnstone in 5th, with sportsracers in the top four positions]

The February 1960 issue of the SCCA Regional newsletter Pit Patter mentioned that Duncan planned to take his car to Havana for the Freedom Speed Week, a.k.a. the Cuban GP.

Not sure if he ever did.


The Duncan Forlong car was the first Gemini made and raced in the Formula Junior race supporting the USGP at Sebring in December 1959 (although driven by Joe Sheppard as Duncan was injured in his Saab in the compact race). Duncan subsequently raced the Gemini in Cuba and El Salvador. Here is a photo of the Gemini as it arrived in Havana in early 1960 - it raced there on 24 and 28 February 1960. We acquired this car last year and it is now under restoration and should be racing later this year.
I would appreciate any information on the car including details of the Dunnellon feature and where I could get a copy the February 1960 edition of "Pit Patter".
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#32 David Birchall

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 14:50

Hatrat, I said 'reputedly' because I have been hanging around this board long enough that I doubt everything!
I have no reason not to believe this is the car driven by JC.

Personally, I am delighted that the Gemini Mk2 is getting recognition finally as a very good design. I was very impressed with mine and felt it was vastly better in design and particularly, quality than the Elva I had owned previously.

#33 Jerry Entin

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 14:56

Hatrat:

Copies of Pit Patter are as scarce as hen's teeth. Nedra Ware only sent me a torn-out page which had a reference to her, and which also included the Cuban GP note.

As for Dunnellon, it was the first race in Florida in 1960: January 16-17. Sunday featured seven races, four of which allowed FJ cars to participate. The Gemini ran under #55.

Race 1 - 10 laps: no Forlong/Gemini, but Dick Dungan in the Gemini: 5th overall behind Sheppard, Huttinger, Cassel and Hoppen.

Race 3 - 10 laps: Forlong 5th overall with Gemini, behind Sheppard, Cassel, Huttinger and Kingham.

Race 5 - 10 laps: DNF for Forlong/Gemini

race 7 - 20 laps: Forlong 6th overall with Gemini, behind Sheppard, Cassel, Huttinger, Costley and Johnstone.

Edited by Jerry Entin, 16 July 2009 - 15:02.


#34 hatrat

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Posted 16 July 2009 - 20:34

Thanks for that info Jerry.
Cheers

#35 agricola

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Posted 01 August 2021 - 13:29

just found this post any chance of reactivating the images please?



#36 arttidesco

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Posted 03 August 2021 - 16:25

just found this post any chance of reactivating the images please?

 

Sorry cannot help with older pics that have been deactivated but here are a couple of recent ones I found while looking for something else just now....

 

15-08-30-IMG-0664.jpg

 

William Bill Grimshaw in the Moorland at Oulton Park in 2015.....

 

01-IMG-2964sc-624x416.jpg

 

... and Graham Barron in his Gemini Mk II at Castle Combe in 2014.


Edited by arttidesco, 03 August 2021 - 16:26.


#37 hatrat

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Posted 03 August 2021 - 19:42

just found this post any chance of reactivating the images please?

 

Lots of images and details on Gemini cars on a site we created at : https://www.hrscc.co...-junior/gemini/



#38 Rupertlt1

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Posted 04 August 2021 - 04:50

J. Croft leaves the line in his Mark 2 Gemini. His best time was 32.97 secs.

but B.T.D. at the B.A.R.C. (Yorkshire Centre) Drag Sprint last Sunday was

recorded by Mrs. J. Warburton in a Lotus 20. She recorded a time of

26.42 secs. for the standing kilometre at Church Fenton R.A.F. Station.

This represents an average speed of 118.90 m.p.h.

Autosport, 20 July 1962, Page 100

 

Duncan Rabagliati: John Croft. Used to live in Guiseley. Fairly confident that this is now Graham Barron’s car.

 

For Gemini in Canada go here (Nigel Russell wonderfully comprehensive):

 

https://www.hrscc.co...nior-in-canada/

 

(Note: there are no states in Canada, they are provinces. The Mid West is normally referred to as the Prairies, or Prairie Provinces. The "visiting rear engine Gemini MK3 from Ohio USA" was Dudley Deimel, Gemini Mk3A, Canadian GP meeting, Mosport, September 30, 1961.)

 

RGDS RLT 


Edited by Rupertlt1, 04 August 2021 - 05:15.