204 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

Hereditary Formula One drivers makes about as much sense as hereditary monarchy and mathematicians put together.

[KWSN - DSM]

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Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Hereditary Formula One drivers makes about as much sense as hereditary monarchy and mathematicians put together.

I prefer hereditary monarchy over elected Presidents.

[Calorus]

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Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


I prefer hereditary monarchy over elected Presidents.

That's only (as Slartibartfast will concur) because anyone capable of getting themselves elected President is ipso facto not eligible to do it.

[Bos]

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Originally posted by Josta


Indeed there is. He is the most experienced GP2 driver by far. The thing is that if he was better, he wouldn't be the most experienced GP2 driver ever. He would have been promoted to F1. So Pantano is good, but not quite good enough for F1.

Wait, so experience counts against you? More experience = less potential in F1? Doing well in GP2 is only good if you're young?

As far as I understand, in a relatively spec series like GP2 the only thing that distorts the points picture is bad luck/equipment failures. Apart from that, if you're consistently scoring, then you're consistently scoring.

Did you know that both Pantano and Glock were in F1 briefly in 2004? Glock then raced elsewhere, then went to GP2, won it (despite prior F1 experience *ahem*), and is now doing OK in F1.

Yeah, so Glock has 3 years more experience prior to his winning GP2, but does that make someone like Buemi a better choice?

Bourdais was supposed to be in F1 many years ago, he's doing OK now, and he's what? 28 and a rookie in F1?

There may be many good reasons why someone is not worthy of F1, but, hypothetically winning GP2 at the age of 29 isn't one.

[molive]

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Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer

Especially when according to his team mate Senna was at fault

BTW, what a load of BS that DH interview (and also a cowardly one, why didnt he say these things during the infamous italian court trial). Hill is simply saying that Senna creshed because he went over the limit, but he doesnt know it for sure, Hill actually never knew where the limit of the car was, so far he was from it. There was no way Senna misjudged a corner like the old Tamburello, the freaking car bottomed and launched straight forward. Senna couldnt do a thing to prevent it.

Hill

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well if the car is bottoming that badly, don't drive over the bumps so harshly.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Well if the car is bottoming that badly, don't drive over the bumps so harshly.

We will never know what happened, it may be a mechanical failure, bottoming, anything. The lap before the cras is on youtube, and seems very good to me, nothing indicated what will happen next. Just as Piquet or Berger's case.

[Calorus]

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Originally posted by molive


BTW, what a load of BS that DH interview (and also a cowardly one, why didnt he say these things during the infamous italian court trial). Hill is simply saying that Senna creshed because he went over the limit, but he doesnt know it for sure, Hill actually never knew where the limit of the car was, so far he was from it. There was no way Senna misjudged a corner like the old Tamburello, the freaking car bottomed and launched straight forward. Senna couldnt do a thing to prevent it.

Hill

Racing driver crashes car - hold the press.

If anyone knew what had happened, there would be no speculation. Hill was in a far better position than most to have an opinion as he was driving the same car on the same day. Senna was a great driver but he wasn't some inhuman infallible god. If you say he bottomed and launched - how is that exclusive to a driver error? Steering column failure, suspension failure, driver error - any may have been the cause. And, given that the FW16 was a bit of a dog as far as the suspension goes, driver error seems as likely as any.

[rolf123]

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Originally posted by Calorus


Stunningly tasteless. Congratulations.

I don't see your point. FW, even if he logically does not blame himself, he might feel emotional guilt. That would be quite normal.

Personally, I still find it amazing that the car ploughed straight ahead. Accident or team negligence? We will never know.

[Calorus]

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Originally posted by rolf123


I don't see your point. FW, even if he logically does not blame himself, he might feel emotional guilt. That would be quite normal.

Personally, I still find it amazing that the car ploughed straight ahead. Accident or team negligence? We will never know.

The insinuation from the tone of the post suggested that he should.

[rolf123]

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Originally posted by Calorus


The insinuation from the tone of the post suggested that he should.

Your opinion. I don't see it that way. He asked a non-rhetorical question.

[postajegenye]

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Originally posted by Ben


Maybe he is only somewhere between Nico Rosberg and Timo Glock

There's nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can be the best, but if he's between Rosberg and Glock, then he deserves a seat in F1.

[Calorus]

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Originally posted by rolf123


Your opinion.

Yes, thank you - it is.

[Ben]

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Originally posted by postajegenye


There's nothing wrong with that. Not everyone can be the best, but if he's between Rosberg and Glock, then he deserves a seat in F1.

I quite agree. I don't disagree he deserves his sport. He's at the front in GP2 and has fringe benefits from his family history.

Ben

[Arion]

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Originally posted by Calorus


If anyone knew what had happened, there would be no speculation.

Hill seems to be saying he knows exactly what happened.

"I am convinced that he made a mistake"

"It was not the fault of anyone else that he kept his foot flat when he could have lifted."

[Levike]

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Originally posted by Arion


Hill seems to be saying he knows exactly what happened.

"I am convinced that he made a mistake"

"It was not the fault of anyone else that he kept his foot flat when he could have lifted."

Yes he surely knows he saw all what happened, he was just a half lap down after 1 lap....

[Ross Stonefeld]

He's seen more than any of us have.

[Arion]

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Originally posted by Levike



Yes he surely knows he saw all what happened, he was just a half lap down after 1 lap....

Exactly, he's in the same car, in the same race, but not doing the same laptime

While he has the right to speculate, what annoys me is he seems so "convinced" he's right, just because he drove the same car.

[kenny]

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Originally posted by Arion


Exactly, he's in the same car, in the same race, but not doing the same laptime

While he has the right to speculate, what annoys me is he seems so "convinced" he's right, just because he drove the same car.

Hill was actually doing FW a favor... defending him because of the stupid trial that was going on against him...
If it wasn't for the trial, I think people would have been more 'open' about all this, without being afraid of what was going to happen in Italy...
as Alboreto said 'some people are afraid to talk, and afraid they will lose their job...' he also said 'no one makes a mistake in Tamburello, if you go off there, it is a mechanical problem'...

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's not a 'driving corner' per se, but I can see how an ill handling car that isn't riding the bumps well and/or bottoming could leave the race track.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
He's seen more than any of us have.

Yes that's right. Just Hill's 1994 comments annoyed me at the time. While he was almost a second slower in the same car, was lapped in Brasil, He commented that he doesn't know what Senna complains, tha car is good and he is having good points in the championship. That's because he had some luck and Senna had terribly bad luck. It gave me some disrespect for the man.

[as65p]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
It's not a 'driving corner' per se, but I can see how an ill handling car that isn't riding the bumps well and/or bottoming could leave the race track.

Yes there may be a slim chance of that happening. It has to be slim otherwise we would have seen more occurances of it. The Wiliams might have been a handful at that time, but there were certainly worse handling cars in the field.

However, what kills the theory for me is the way the car left the track, spearing to the right in a left hand corner.

As to the reasons for Hills words, I agree with Kenny.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It didn't spear to the right, it left at a tangent to the curve.

[as65p]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
It didn't spear to the right, it left at a tangent to the curve.

Let's say it left the track in an unusual way. Unusual for a car with a working steering wheel, that is.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by as65p


Let's say it left the track in an unusual way. Unusual for a car with a working steering wheel, that is.

It's totally pointless today, he's gone, he made mistakes before as everybody did and does, maybe it was a driver error, whatever. If we should choose from 2 scenarios, the one that it was a mechanical failure and Williams has to go jail, the second is that it was a driver error, then i think it's better to say that it was driver error.

[gio66]

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Originally posted by airwise
As Senna is hardly dominating, I really find the whole saga rather vulgar and disrespectful to the family name and his uncle's legacy.

Are you sure?

The Instituto Ayrton Senna doesn't mean anything?
6,500,000 children removed to ignorance and poverty don't mean anything?
In your opinion, the logo Senninha on the engine cover is just a sticker?

Before his death, Ayrton wanted to give meaning to his earthly existence:
"I think a lot about everything, I can't avoid it. I move from one idea to the other, and all my plans become a dream, which I see grow and progress. In this dream, I see happy people, mostly children."

If Bruno is trying to harness his talent and realize himself, as he dreamed when he was a child (he was already paulista karting champion when he was 10) and, at the same time, manages to continue the project desired by his uncle, in your opinion, is this "vulgar and disrespectful to the family name and his uncle's legacy"?

Open your mind.

[as65p]

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Originally posted by Levike


If we should choose from 2 scenarios, the one that it was a mechanical failure and Williams has to go jail, the second is that it was a driver error, then i think it's better to say that it was driver error.

Agreed. But the danger of SFW going to jail has long past and the italian courts are unlikely to re-open the case because soemone on Atlas expresses a differing view.;)

[undersquare]

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Originally posted by as65p


Let's say it left the track in an unusual way. Unusual for a car with a working steering wheel, that is.

But the telemetry showed torque through the steering column up to the moment of impact. I always thought that ruled out the weld failure theory.

[NineOneSeven]

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Originally posted by gio66


Are you sure?

The Instituto Ayrton Senna doesn't mean anything?
6,500,000 children removed to ignorance and poverty don't mean anything?
In your opinion, the logo Senninha on the engine cover is just a sticker?

Before his death, Ayrton wanted to give meaning to his earthly existence:
"I think a lot about everything, I can't avoid it. I move from one idea to the other, and all my plans become a dream, which I see grow and progress. In this dream, I see happy people, mostly children."

If Bruno is trying to harness his talent and realize himself, as he dreamed when he was a child (he was already paulista karting champion when he was 10) and, at the same time, manages to continue the project desired by his uncle, in your opinion, is this "vulgar and disrespectful to the family name and his uncle's legacy"?

Open your mind.

Great post.

I found Hill comments uncomfortable but he is entitled to his opinion. If you not pushing the limits then your not racing.

[airwise]

gio66,

I knew my comments would upset some people and I'm sorry for that, but it's just the way I feel. I find the whole adoption of the Senna name, the helmet design, the whole marketing effort distasteful - and this is from someone who met his uncle a few times and who still holds him in reverence. Ayrton was a very special person. If this guy was beating all comers and was called Bruno Lalli I would no doubt be more enthused.

The thread is full of people saying he deserves a chance and will make a decent average F1 driver. His uncle would not have wanted to do anything average. But I'd be delighted to be proven wrong and applaud the efforts of the Instituto Ayrton Senna to this day.

[as65p]

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Originally posted by undersquare


But the telemetry showed torque through the steering column up to the moment of impact. I always thought that ruled out the weld failure theory.

Which would be remarkable in any case, because the picture show the wheels remaining straight right up until the impact. If torque was applied and measurable, the wheels should have turned somewhere, don't you think?

Whatever, Levike is right that it doesn't really matter anymore and it's got nothing to do with the thread topic anyway.

[Ross Stonefeld]

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Originally posted by as65p


Let's say it left the track in an unusual way. Unusual for a car with a working steering wheel, that is.

No, it left the track in a way that would be usual for a car with, pardon the phrase, terminal understeer.

[as65p]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


No, it left the track in a way that would be usual for a car with, pardon the phrase, terminal understeer.

If that's understeer, every current race track would be a death trap. It rather looks like no-steer to me.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


No, it left the track in a way that would be usual for a car with, pardon the phrase, terminal understeer.

Not really, because at understeer you can see wheel movement, just the car is going straight... In this case the wheels were very weird. btw, it really doesn't matter, he won't be back.

[undersquare]

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Originally posted by as65p


Which would be remarkable in any case, because the picture show the wheels remaining straight right up until the impact. If torque was applied and measurable, the wheels should have turned somewhere, don't you think?

Williams have a telemetry trace showing torque, the video is inconclusive, so I'm staying with the data myself.

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Whatever, Levike is right that it doesn't really matter anymore and it's got nothing to do with the thread topic anyway.

Sure, it's off-topic but I'm posting anyway, however I'm having the last word and now everybody else has to shut up about it and not reply .

[Levike]

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Originally posted by undersquare


Williams have a telemetry trace showing torque, the video is inconclusive, so I'm staying with the data myself.

[B]

Sure, it's off-topic but I'm posting anyway, however I'm having the last word and now everybody else has to shut up about it and not reply .

[kenny]

intersting read and stuff and pics...
http://www.ayrton-se...iles/start.html

[Ben]

Another point very well made by grandprix.com (obviously an opinion piece masquerading as news, for all of theose who hate the site ) is that Torro Rosso have Red Bull money for next year then have to go their own way in 2010, and invest in the infrastructure required to become a constructor.

Like I said - if you were their money guy, who'd you want a Glock a Buemi or a Senna...?

Ben

[gio66]

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Originally posted by airwise
If this guy was beating all comers and was called Bruno Lalli I would no doubt be more enthused.

Don't worry Airwise, there is no bitterness on me toward you.
I just want to try to explain my point of view.

In Monaco, 2 months ago, I've talked with Viviane about this.
She replied to me that it is legitimate for Bruno to call Senna.
She is called Viviane Senna Da Silva, as Ayrton, because they are children of Mrs. Neyde Senna and Mr Milton Da Silva.

Similarly, the three children of Viviane Senna and Flaviano Lalli called Bianca, Bruno and Paula Senna Lalli.

In Brazil the people have matronysm.
For example, the son of Max Papis and Tatiana Fittipaldi is called Marco Fittipaldi Papis. The son of Estácio Gonçalves Souto Maior and Clotilde Piquet Carneiro is called Nelson Piquet Souto Maior.

Viviane told me she knows that many people, as you, don't understand this but "I can't explain it to all the world".

[noikeee]

The whole "he should be called Lalli" thing just won't go away.

I'm not sure what to make of Bruno Senna. He's clearly very talented - nobody without talent would've been right there fighting for the GP2 championship with the level of experience he has. The problem is, since he has missed out all those karting/lower formula years, he has no chance of getting them back. So we can all speculate how good he would've been had he started young, and he probably would've been stronger, but it is irrelevant. What matters for F1 teams is what is he able to offer them now and in the coming years - not what he would have been able to offer them in a parallel universe where he had a different junior formula career.

So let's forget the level of experience: what I see in this GP2 season is a strong driver, fairly quick, fighting for the championship, but a bit too often performing average/making mistakes to be the big dominating driver - and now let's remember he's on the reigning champions team. A bit similar to Di Grassi at ART last year, no? Well, nobody was excited about Di Grassi.

Now, the question remains - can Bruno improve more than the other guys at his current level in the coming years, because of the experience he lacks compared to the others? I can't answer this. As far as I remember, there hasn't been any similar cases in F1 or the open-wheel ladder recently.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by paranoik0

So let's forget the level of experience: what I see in this GP2 season is a strong driver, fairly quick, fighting for the championship, but a bit too often performing average/making mistakes to be the big dominating driver - and now let's remember he's on the reigning champions team. A bit similar to Di Grassi at ART last year, no? Well, nobody was excited about Di Grassi.

The season is way from over....

[airwise]

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Originally posted by gio66



In Monaco, 2 months ago, I've talked with Viviane about this.
She replied to me that it is legitimate for Bruno to call Senna.
She is called Viviane Senna Da Silva, as Ayrton, because they are children of Mrs. Neyde Senna and Mr Milton Da Silva.

Similarly, the three children of Viviane Senna and Flaviano Lalli called Bianca, Bruno and Paula Senna Lalli.

In Brazil the people have matronysm.
For example, the son of Max Papis and Tatiana Fittipaldi is called Marco Fittipaldi Papis. The son of Estácio Gonçalves Souto Maior and Clotilde Piquet Carneiro is called Nelson Piquet Souto Maior.

Viviane told me she knows that many people, as you, don't understand this but "I can't explain it to all the world".

Many thanks for the explanation gio. It helps to understand. Regardless of my feelings I would genuinely be delighted if Bruno could do justice to the Senna name. I just hope he doesn't fail very publicly due to the eagerness of global marketing organisations. I will certainly be watching closely.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by airwise


Many thanks for the explanation gio. It helps to understand. Regardless of my feelings I would genuinely be delighted if Bruno could do justice to the Senna name. I just hope he doesn't fail very publicly due to the eagerness of global marketing organisations. I will certainly be watching closely.

Don't worry, he won't fail. He was expected to fail way before this stage of his carreer, and he proved everybody was wrong. He is a strong guy with great talent.

[BMW_F1]

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Originally posted by gio66



Viviane told me she knows that many people, as you, don't understand this but "I can't explain it to all the world".

wow. I didn't know this.. thanks for the info..

[gio66]

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Originally posted by airwise


Many thanks for the explanation gio. It helps to understand. Regardless of my feelings I would genuinely be delighted if Bruno could do justice to the Senna name. I just hope he doesn't fail very publicly due to the eagerness of global marketing organisations. I will certainly be watching closely.

I am pleased that you have understood what I wanted to say.

The Senna family tries to protect Bruno and to avoid speculation on its name which, of course, raises a lot of interests, from Bernie to the smallest organizer. Each manager would sell their mother to ensure its management but the family, until now, has denied this role to anyone, entrusting the elder sister Bianca. Perhaps this may be a limit to the career of Bruno but I believe it's right.

However, if Bruno will arrive in F1, it's inevitable that the media will use his name according to their convenience, to exalt him or to denigrate him. Here, in Italy, Autosprint calls him Senna when he won and Lalli when he doesn't.
I believe that this is very stupid and disrespectful. I believe that this is very stupid and disrespectful but, unfortunately, is nothing new. I think that is sufficient to see how the media, especially italians, have treated the son of Gilles.

Bruno is perfectly conscious of this, he has solid shoulders and is ready to face the situation because he is very determined to become a champion.

Thanks for reading. I hope that I explained well.

Gio66.

[gio66]

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Originally posted by BMW_F1


wow. I didn't know this.. thanks for the info..

Don't mention it!

I assure you that it is very embarrassing for me to talk about these things with Viviane. Fortunately, she is a bewitching woman and his peacefulness can cheer up any conversation.
I believe that few people around the world have its personality.

Gio66.

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

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Originally posted by Levike
That's because he had some luck and Senna had terribly bad luck.

Not only. Brazil wasn't bad luck. Aida was. Imola ....

[Bernd Rosemeyer]

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Originally posted by Ben Like I said - if you were their money guy, who'd you want a Glock a Buemi or a Senna...?

Ben [/B]

The one who is fastest, that seems to be Glock at the moment.

[OfficeLinebacker]

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Originally posted by Calorus
That's only (as Slartibartfast will concur) because anyone capable of getting themselves elected President is ipso facto not eligible to do it.

So true. The only person qualified to lead a country is the kind that has the "I would never join a club that would have me as a member" mentality.

Well, we had one (the first), and we're STILL riding on his coattails.

God Bless America, and may the President rot in hell!

[OfficeLinebacker]

Also want to note that when Damon Hill made those remarks, was he not in the employ of Williams?

The more I learn about F1 the more I realize the TEAMS control so much.

Hey Damon, here's a million, read this script to the interviewer (who is also in on it).

Hey Damon, want to be blacklisted in F1? No? Then do this:

Not saying this happened. But with EVERY public comment one has to examine the source. All must be taken with a grain of salt to see what the underlying motivations are. Who gains? Who loses?

Guys like Flavio, you have to examine those comments very closely. A guy like Alonso even, you have to understand that the same statement coming from Kubica, for example, is completely different.