33 replies to this topic

[F3000]

Just a quick survey; What CAD software do F1 teams use?
I've seen a few threads with various software packages listed, but I just wanted to get an up-to-date list.
So, as far as I know...

Ferrari: Pro-Engineer (?)
BMW Sauber: CATIA V5
Renault:
Williams:
McLaren: CATIA V5
Red Bull:
Toyota: CATIA V5
Toro Rosso:
Honda F1:
Force India:

Can anyone fill in the gaps please?

[nas]

Renault: Catia V5
Williams: I-Deas
Red Bull: Unigraphics (NX4 I believe)
Honda: Catia V5
Force India: Catia V5

If I am not wrong and judging by their job adverts, Ferrari uses Catia V5 too. In fact all the above information is from the relevant team's job adverts.

[Stefan_VTi]

Didn't most of the teams use Pro-Engineer for engine & mechanical components, next to a package like Catia for the chassis?

[Greg Locock]

I've never seen a ProE seat in a car company.

[Stefan_VTi]

Hmm, strange... I think I saw it mentioned in a magazine somewhere. A search on "pro-engineer formula one" didn't come up with much indeed...

[TDIMeister]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
I've never seen a ProE seat in a car company.

Are you referring to F1? VW uses ProE group-wide.

[F3000]

Thanks for that nas. So we have:

Ferrari: CATIA V5
BMW Sauber: CATIA V5
Renault:CATIA V5
McLaren: CATIA V5
Toyota: CATIA V5
Honda F1: CATIA V5
Force India: CATIA V5
Williams: I-Deas
Red Bull: Unigraphics (NX4)
Toro Rosso: Unigraphics (NX4)

[Fat Boy]

Just going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing whatever Red Bull uses, Toro Rosso will use the same.

[zac510]

Originally posted by TDIMeister

Are you referring to F1? VW uses ProE group-wide.

Supposedly Audi Sport (ie the Le Mans wing) uses it.

[Greg Locock]

Fair enough, I've never had dealings with VW or their minions.

[Canuck]

Originally posted by Fat Boy
Just going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing whatever Red Bull uses, Toro Rosso will use the same.

[AndyM]

VW group all use ProE except for Bentley who use Catia V5.

[F3000]

Just saw that Williams use NX4:

Ferrari: CATIA V5
BMW Sauber: CATIA V5
Renault:CATIA V5
McLaren: CATIA V5
Toyota: CATIA V5
Honda F1: CATIA V5
Force India: CATIA V5
Williams: Unigraphics (NX4)
Red Bull: Unigraphics (NX4)
Toro Rosso: Unigraphics (NX4)

I think the list is complete now.

[phantom II]

Dassault "CATIA V5" should read "CATIA V6-3D"!!!!!!

Design Visionaries "Unigraphics NX4" should read "NX5"!!!!!

Originally posted by F3000
Just saw that Williams use NX4:

Ferrari: CATIA V5
BMW Sauber: CATIA V5
Renault:CATIA V5
McLaren: CATIA V5
Toyota: CATIA V5
Honda F1: CATIA V5
Force India: CATIA V5
Williams: Unigraphics (NX4)
Red Bull: Unigraphics (NX4)
Toro Rosso: Unigraphics (NX4)

I think the list is complete now.

[cheapracer]

The Chinese car companies I have been to appear to use Catia and have Pro E hanging around.

Darn expensive here, l bought 1 CD with Unigraphics NX V4.2, PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire V3.0 and CATIA V5R17 P3 for almost 2 bucks - damn, I usually pay no more than a dollar

[Saltypeanut]

I think Honda uses: Buildadog V1

[primer]

Originally posted by cheapracer

Darn expensive here, l bought 1 CD with Unigraphics NX V4.2, PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire V3.0 and CATIA V5R17 P3 for almost 2 bucks - damn, I usually pay no more than a dollar

Don't these software require some kind of dongle thingy to work?

Have you checked whether any of the software on that CD actually works? Perhaps it has some spyware or other malicious stuff thrown in for free!

[saudoso]

Originally posted by primer


Don't these software require some kind of dongle thingy to work?

Have you checked whether any of the software on that CD actually works? Perhaps it has some spyware or other malicious stuff thrown in for free!

You can find almost any software you want for free on the web. If not someone will bust it for you for around $100.

[vvillium3]

On the subject of finding software on the web. I would love to have my own version of NX for home, but seem to never find a version for linux. Anyone have the hook-up? I wish my work would allow me to bring my dongle home over the weekend

More on topic:

Buildadog V1 <<<< LOL

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by cheapracer
Darn expensive here, l bought 1 CD with Unigraphics NX V4.2, PTC Pro Engineer Wildfire V3.0 and CATIA V5R17 P3 for almost 2 bucks - damn, I usually pay no more than a dollar

Hmmmm .... a very brief search showed that in minutes I could get a copy of CATIA no probs.
No use for it though.

[cheapracer]

Originally posted by saudoso


You can find almost any software you want for free on the web. If not someone will bust it for you for around $100.

China is a whole new world for software, even if I wanted to buy genuine chances are I can't find it and have no choice but for pirated version. Any computer shop will rip a program for you for free off the net. Theres downsides, no net pay scheme (Paypal etc) or Ebay or internet phone service will accept payments from my card as soon as they see my IP is Chinese because most internet fraud is China or HK based.

[bbe]

Back to the software used by F1-teams. I believe not all have one dedicated system, although that would be the ideal case from a maintenance and architectural point of view.

I have heard and read that some teams use other software because of functionality problems using CATIA. For drivetrain, suspension and assembly of external components like bearings, radiators etc etc, some teams seem to use Pro/ENGINEER or Unigraphics (or even a combination of the two, depending on the supplier's system). Bodywork, aero components and packaging the lot is done in CATIA as complex surfacing is easier done in that package.

I know several FIAT-owned companies (for sure CNH) use Pro/ENGINEER as their standard 3D-engineering package, whether or not Ferrari does it too, I'm unsure. I'd expect they use both.

If I'm misinformed, please let me know.

[F3000]

So I see CATIA is very popular. I'm sure many of you have worked with it.

Can anyone recommend a good book to learn it please?

Thanks.

[tahadar]

Originally posted by F3000
So I see CATIA is very popular. I'm sure many of you have worked with it.

Can anyone recommend a good book to learn it please?

Thanks.

yeah, id like know if theres a particularly good CATIA book out there. ive been taught PRO/E but CATIA seems to operate very differently...

[IrishMariner]

Originally posted by phantom II
Dassault "CATIA V5" should read "CATIA V6-3D"!!!!!!

I don't think that's the case, actually. CATIA V5 is quite different from V6 and it will be a while before V6 supercedes V5. McLaren might be able to successfully change CAD systems in a few weeks, but for the likes of Chrysler, Scania or Airbus, it's a huge decision. In fact, the use of different CAD systems around the Airbus partners (PTC CADDS5, CATIA V4 & V5) was a huge factor in the delay of the 380. BTW, don't even ask about CADDS5!

*********************************************************************

Originally posted by F3000
So I see CATIA is very popular. I'm sure many of you have worked with it.

Can anyone recommend a good book to learn it please?

Thanks.

I would recommend the following:-

http://www.schroff.c...tia/catia89.htm

The book is available from Amazon, Alibris, Ebay or any shop, really.Be sure to get the one that matches the release of V5 that you have got (i.e Release 16 or 17 or whatever). Speaking of which, try and get a recent version of the software (16 or 17) because there was quite a few upgrades from the early releases (R10 was not a good one. R13 is when it started to get better)

I use V5 for my job (Boeing) and we get superb training, but I originally learnt the package using a Schroff book. You can download exercise parts from their website.

Other tips:-

1) Youtube - There are a few tutorials on the YouTube
2) There is a student version available (http://www.catiastud...nt_overview.htm)
3) User Forums - CATIA V5 is becoming omnipotent so there are plenty of good user forums. Such as:-
a) Eng-Tips (http://www.eng-tips....der.cfm?pid=560)
b) COE (Catia Operators Exchange) (http://www.coe.org/D....aspx?tabid=210)
c) http://www.catiav5fo...php?page=Portal

4) CATIA V5 is similar to Solidworks, so if you can use that then you might be ok

******************************************************************

[V8 Fireworks]

It would seem like CATIA is the best.

From a competitive point of view should the CAD software should be irrelevant, it's just a tool to make virtual models? Should the CAM software and analysis software should be of more relevant to improving tolerances and lap time?

Everyone wants 1980 style cars and racing, perhaps Mosley might implement a CAD and general computational analysis ban and send the teams back to pencil, paper and slide rulers for cost containtment? There could be a scandal as thousands of unemployed are contracted for 1 euro an hour and trained to use their slide rulers to be part of a human finite element analysis department.

[Greg Locock]

Since one of the goals is to reduce costs reintroducing manual drafting would be a backward step. Although CAD imposes some up-front costs, the downstream savings are huge. As an example in the real world, every PC can generate a full model of any car we are working on, so all of our clearance and assembly checks can be done by the end user. Similarly I can get the hardpoints for my models by measuring the Digital Buck (as it is called) without bothering a draftie.

What would be much funnier and more useful would be to insist that only open source software is used.

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
What would be much funnier and more useful would be to insist that only open source software is used.

Or do what Airbus did, and use different CAD software in Germany and France, so when they try to join the tail section to the fuselage on the new A380 it doesn't fit.

"But zee units are zee same!"

LOLz ....

[MichaelPM]

Originally posted by IrishMariner


I don't think that's the case, actually. CATIA V5 is quite different from V6 and it will be a while before V6 supercedes V5. McLaren might be able to successfully change CAD systems in a few weeks, but for the likes of Chrysler, Scania or Airbus, it's a huge decision. In fact, the use of different CAD systems around the Airbus partners (PTC CADDS5, CATIA V4 & V5) was a huge factor in the delay of the 380. BTW, don't even ask about CADDS5!

*********************************************************************



I would recommend the following:-

http://www.schroff.c...tia/catia89.htm

The book is available from Amazon, Alibris, Ebay or any shop, really.Be sure to get the one that matches the release of V5 that you have got (i.e Release 16 or 17 or whatever). Speaking of which, try and get a recent version of the software (16 or 17) because there was quite a few upgrades from the early releases (R10 was not a good one. R13 is when it started to get better)

I use V5 for my job (Boeing) and we get superb training, but I originally learnt the package using a Schroff book. You can download exercise parts from their website.

Other tips:-

1) Youtube - There are a few tutorials on the YouTube
2) There is a student version available (http://www.catiastud...nt_overview.htm)
3) User Forums - CATIA V5 is becoming omnipotent so there are plenty of good user forums. Such as:-
a) Eng-Tips (http://www.eng-tips....der.cfm?pid=560)
b) COE (Catia Operators Exchange) (http://www.coe.org/D....aspx?tabid=210)
c) http://www.catiav5fo...php?page=Portal

4) CATIA V5 is similar to Solidworks, so if you can use that then you might be ok

******************************************************************

Great post!

I've been interested in getting some V5 experience, so far its just been AutoCAD and Solidworks. It does look kind of close to Solidworks alright so hopefully when I get my hands on V5 I won't be completely lost but your post should go a long way to making sure I have a good head start.

[rhm]

AFAIK the big deal with CATIA isn't so much the CAD facilities, although they are presumably as good as any of the other packages mentioned, but the database and data management facilities that it's built on. Programs like Solidworks (the only one I've personally used) load and save designs in files like a word processor document. That's fine if you are on your own or in a small engineering shop where only one person is working on a specific job at one time, but when you've got 20, 100 or even 1000 designers, integration specialists, production engineers and project managers that all want to do something with the project data, you need something more sophisticated. Of course other software vendors are trying to catch up, but when you're offered the software used to design the Boeing 777, it's an easy choice (assuming you can afford it of course).

[Greg Locock]

And the downside of modern configuration management software is that your designers spend a quarter of their timing driving the database. I just remembered the biggest single plus of CAD over a pencil - we got some final-form one-off brackets hacked from billet for $290, with a 2 day turnaround, straight off the CAD. When I did that job 20 years ago it cost $10000 and took 6 weeks - carve the pattern, cast the part, machine the part. It did look brilliant when it was finished though, the customer was gob-smacked.

[IrishMariner]

Originally posted by rhm
AFAIK the big deal with CATIA isn't so much the CAD facilities, although they are presumably as good as any of the other packages mentioned, but the database and data management facilities that it's built on. Programs like Solidworks (the only one I've personally used) load and save designs in files like a word processor document. That's fine if you are on your own or in a small engineering shop where only one person is working on a specific job at one time, but when you've got 20, 100 or even 1000 designers, integration specialists, production engineers and project managers that all want to do something with the project data, you need something more sophisticated. Of course other software vendors are trying to catch up, but when you're offered the software used to design the Boeing 777, it's an easy choice (assuming you can afford it of course).

To a certain extent, I agree. Boeing uses Dassault's Enovia and it can be a right pain in the a$$ to get your head around.

What I've seen is that the success of a CAD package depends on how much of the capability is used by the designers/company. The designer's productivity can be enhanced a great deal if he/she uses the full features.

For example, Boeing is doing away with 2-D drawings for parts & assemblies. Instead, they use V5 and create Hybrid* models that have the required dimensioning & tolerancing applied to the 3-D solid model rather than on a paper view. This saves the designer having to set up his drawing, lay-out the views and worry about things like linetypes, annotation,etc. Yes, I know that clever use of V5, Macros and VBA can automate drawing creation (Airbus used this on CADDS5/A380 back in the day), but I believe that the new way is a more productive use of designer's time (Having said that, I miss the good 'ol days of the drawing boards).

Another example of the benefits of a good CAD system is that it can stop mistakes before they happen. In the first example, I explained how V5 allows GD&T to be applied to the model rather than a drawing view of the model. Well, V5 is so clever it prevents the designer from applying a tolerance that breaks the GD&T/ASME rules. This approach can also be applied to hydraulic or electric systems design where a designer cannot model a bend radius that's too small, or run conflicting electric signals beside each other.

If Boeing, or any company, buys a high-end CAD package without using the full range of its abilities, then they are wasting money. CATIA V5 is bought in modular form where the company buys the basic design package and whatever additional "workbenches" it needs. For example, a machine shop would need the CNC workbench, an OEM would have the workbench for definition of seam-welds, an F1 team the composite-related workbenches, etc...


*Not the same as a Hybrid Design part in V5.

[ViMaMo]

Originally posted by F3000
So I see CATIA is very popular. I'm sure many of you have worked with it.

Can anyone recommend a good book to learn it please?

Thanks.

1. Do books cover the best practises used in the industry?
2. Try to get a IGS of a casting component and model it, should be fun.

[Greg Locock]

1 ... No. But they do show you a sensible way of doing the easy stuff.

2 Castings are easy. Sheet metal is hard. Basically any course that concentrates on things you can machine on a milling machine and a lathe is not really doing more than scratching the surface.