13 replies to this topic

[Tarnik]

Does anyone know any websites, books, etc. about the '67 and '68 Honda V12, as driven by John Surtees? I believe it was the RA300, and won the '67 Italian GP, but I want to find out more. Thanks ahead of time.

[Fast One]

There were four Hondas used in the '67-'68 seasons. The original 3-liter V-12 was the RA273, which started racing in late '66 with Richie Ginther and Ronnie Bucknam (in two different widths!) and continued with Fearless John in '67, scoring 3rds at Kyalami and the non-championship race at Oulton Park, a 4th at the Ring, and a 6th at Silverstone. The car was clearly just turning its wheels, so Honda skipped Mosport and in six weeks adapted an Lola Indy chassis, the RA300, which won its debut race at Monza. It finished 4th in Mexico and started the '68 season with an 8th at Kyalami. No one debted new cars at Kyalami, because the race was in January.

The RA301 appeared at Jarama, and although it was faster, it had a totally different engine from the earlier cars and was beset by reliability problems. It won pole at Spa and broke while leading, giving the McLaren its first win, finished 2nd at Rouen, 5th at Brands Hatch, at 3rd at the Glen (I was there!).

The RA302 was the air-cooled V-8 which Honda ran at Rouen over Surtees objections. Jo Sclesser sadly killed himself in the car and it never raced again. Honda was shaken and withdrew at the end of the season. Too bad, had they stuck around I think they would have been a force in '69/'70.

Anything else you want to know?

[desmo]

Just thought I'd throw a good pic up.

[Keir]

You don't call yourself "Fast One" for nothing!!!
Good Job!!
The Honda did lead at Spa '68, but not from pole. That was the Ferrari of Amon.
Now, apart from the obvious reason of running two different cars, what did Surtees find objectionable about the Honda 302?

[Ray Bell]

FJ probably took one look at the uniquely ridiculous rear chassis structure and said: "That can't possibly be any good!"

[Leif Snellman]

If you want a complete story, try to find the book "Conquest of Formula 1 - The inside story of the men who took Honda to victory" by Christopher Hilton (PSL 1989).

[Fast One]

Kier--

You are absolutely right about Amon winning the pole at Spa. Surtees Honda won the pole at Monza. That's what I get for writing without looking! I have some good pictures of the Hondas, but no scanner. I guess I should get one. Tamiya, I think, did a fabulous 1/12 scale model of the RA273. I built it once, but it disappeared a couple of decades ago. They also did the '69 Matra, with that incredible V-12. Too bad it didn't come with sound!

[Tarnik]

Thanks guys.

[Xrayman]

Tarnik,

If you are interested, the Hondas are due to be at Goodwood Festival again this year. Last year was, i believe, the first time they were seen in europe since the 1960 and I can tell you they are a beautifull car.

The sound of the v12 is Fantastic, although not quite on the scale of the Ferraris.

If you get a chance go to the Festival this year and see the cars!.



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Martin.

ICQ 53805151

[Tarnik]

Unfortunately, I doubt I will make it. But does anyone have other pictures of the RA302?

[Fast One]

Tarnik--

I have several, I just need to buy a scanner!

[desmo]

These are all of the RA302. Check out the funky space frame on the mid-mounted wing in the 3rd shot!

The second picture is indeed an RA301, the picture was mislabeled. Also, note the bizarre ductwork for the aircooled V-8 in the third image. This car is on display at the Honda museum at Motegi.



[This message has been edited by desmo (edited 02-27-2000).]

[Fast One]

Desmo--

The third picture isn't showing up for me, but while the draings are definitely the RA302, the picture below (#2) is of the RA301.

A couple more items of interest. The RA273 developed 400 bhp at 11,000 rpm, but weighed in at 720 kilos dry!!! The RA300 eked an extra 20 bhp out, and was 100 kilos lighter!
The RA301, with a new engine , had 410 bhp and weighed 580. The RA 302 developed 380 bhp from its 8 cylinders, but weighed only 500 kilos, making it the lightest car of the era, 10 kilos lighter than the Lotus 49, according to Cimarosti. The car clearly had potential. Pity Honda became so disheartened over Schlesser's accident. Had they stuck around, that first WC might have come alot earlier. At the very least, Grand Prix racing would have been a whole lot more intersting.

[fount of all knowledge]

The RA302 was tested at Silverstone by Surtees before he decided that he would run the RA301 at the French Grand Prix. The last time the car was run at an F1 event was in practice for the 1968 Italian Grand Prix at Monza when it was driven by David Hobbs but it did not start the race.
Apart from is air-cooled engine, the most interesting feature of the RA302 was the fact that the engine was hung from a beam exending from the rear of the monocoque. This same configuration was used by Ferrari for its 312B F1 cars than raced from 1970-72.
Also I believe the RA302 monocoque was skinned in sheet magnesium which added to the intensity of the fire in poor Schlesser's accident.