30 replies to this topic

[biercemountain]

I was musing the other day and began wondering when the first use of fuel injection on an F1/Grand Prix car was. This thought of course led to the question of what was the last car to use a carburetor.

[uechtel]

Mercedes W196 1954?

[Ray Bell]

While the Mercedes was certainly the first successful use of fuel injection in Grand Prix racing, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that some obscure car predated them with this fitted...

Last use of carburettor might be tricky... I'd reckon you'd start looking about 1969, engines like the Serenissima or perhaps the Maserati V12, even the Coventry-Climax V8. There were certainly cars right through the 1.5-litre era using carbies, but I don't think there'd have been any around after the DFV really took a hold.

Then again, a random entry from a local in South Africa or the US GP could surprise.

[David Shaw]

I believe the last use of carburettors was on the Al Pease Eagle at Mosport in 1969.

[Allan Lupton]

If you include the F2 years 1952/3, then the A type Connaught may have been the first FI user, but its Hilborn-Travers system was pretty crude and the 1954 B type was back to carbs

[HDonaldCapps]

Fuel injection was successfully used on machines built to the CSI's International Racing Formula One beginning about 1950 when the Meyer-Drake Offenhauser 270 first began to use the Hilborn system.

I would not be surprised if the Pease Eagle Mk 1 already mentioned was the last of the formula one cars to use carbs in a race.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Fuel injection was successfully used on machines built to the CSI's International Racing Formula One beginning about 1950 when the Meyer-Drake Offenhauser 270 first began to use the Hilborn system

Of course!
Being an insular European, I'd quite forgotten the Formula One races held at Indianapolis.
Being the circuit it was/is the Hilborn system would have worked well: Connaught used it successfully in road-racing despite, rather than because of its characteristics (likened by some to a small firehose directed into the intake system)

[D-Type]

Did the 3 litre Novi 'Formula 1' cars use fuel injection?

My point being that although the unsupercharged cars complied with the Formula 1 engine size regulations and although there may have been resolutions to run the race to Formula 1 rules, once the 3 litre supercharged cars were allowed to run, the Indianapolis race cannot be considered to be Formula 1 race. After all, had a Novi been placed in 1950 or 1951 it would have scored championship points.

[Ray Bell]

If we were to get tangential with this...

Was John Love the last to lead a Grand Prix using carburettors? And what about the last win? I think that one might hold a surprise.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by D-Type
Did the 3 litre Novi 'Formula 1' cars use fuel injection?

My point being that although the unsupercharged cars complied with the Formula 1 engine size regulations and although there may have been resolutions to run the race to Formula 1 rules, once the 3 litre supercharged cars were allowed to run, the Indianapolis race cannot be considered to be Formula 1 race. After all, had a Novi been placed in 1950 or 1951 it would have scored championship points.

What about 1952 or 1953? The formula one was still in effect, if I remember correctly, it was just that it did not seem to matter. I think that you are correct, it was not a "formula one" race, it was a grand prix event, which is another thing altogether. Besides, if a machine meets the specifications of the formula one in effect, what makes it then not a "formula one" machine? Just asking.

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by D-Type
Did the 3 litre Novi 'Formula 1' cars use fuel injection?

My point being that although the unsupercharged cars complied with the Formula 1 engine size regulations and although there may have been resolutions to run the race to Formula 1 rules, once the 3 litre supercharged cars were allowed to run, the Indianapolis race cannot be considered to be Formula 1 race. After all, had a Novi been placed in 1950 or 1951 it would have scored championship points.

The Novi used fuel injection in 1959, all other years in which Indy counted for the world championship (1950-1960) they had carburettors.
Sadly, they did not qualify for the`"500" in 1959, largely because of the adoption of fuel injection: the system wasn't fully sorted out and failed miserably on the cars.

The only times that a Novi driver gained points for the WDC were 1957 (Paul Russo 4th) and 1956 (Paul Russo 33rd and dead last.)

Yes my dear people you read it right. Paul Russo was dead last in 1956 and still scored a championship point!
That was because of that rule that awarded a point to the fastest lap and it just happened to be that Paul had driven the fastest race lap that year before his retirement.
Which leads to the bizarre statistics that, as far as I could find out: Paul Russo is the only driver ever to score a World Championship point in a race in which he finished dead last. Till date I haven't found a regular GP F1 race in which the same has happened.
Also: there is the fact that no other driver has ever been classified so low in a race result (33rd) within a 1950-1960 period world championship race but still won a point for the world championship title!
Indy also counted for the USAC National championship but Russo didn't score a point for that with that 33rd place.....

A very odd statistic, but perfectly suitable within the Novi legend. Just the kind of event to happen with one of these `jinxed` cars.

For the record, other years in which the Novis failed to qualify at Indy besides 1959 were: 1950, 1954 and 1955 (the FWD cars) and 1960 (reardriver Roadsters)




Henri

[Lotus23]

Thanks, Henri, for that titillating bit of trivia! I love such tidbits -- you made my day!

[uechtel]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


Besides, if a machine meets the specifications of the formula one in effect, what makes it then not a "formula one" machine? Just asking.

Not an easy question indeed. So would you call a 500 cc Cooper a Formula 1 car as well?

At its time it certainly did comply to all specifications of the formula one in effect as well as did my grandfather´s Volkswagen...

[fines]

Good 'un, uechtel!

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by uechtel
Not an easy question indeed. So would you call a 500 cc Cooper a Formula 1 car as well?

At its time it certainly did comply to all specifications of the formula one in effect as well as did my grandfather´s Volkswagen...

....as long as it was built with the formula in mind or was modified to meet it. The issue is, perhaps, that of intent, not of happenstance.

[fines]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
The issue is, perhaps, that of intent, not of happenstance.

Aha!;)

[uechtel]

I see we get closer to the point. I think about this question for quite some time, how to define a "proper" Grand Prix car?

So what about these ones:
Ferrari 500
Ferrari 625
Brabham´s Cooper Bobtail in 1955
Cooper-Climax (I think T43 or T45) 2 litre in 1957/58
Lotus 18
all South African Specials from 1961 to 1965
Brabham BT 11 2.5 litre (1966)
Lotus 33 2 litre (1966)
Lola/BMW 269
March 721G


Before you say "easy", have a second thought:

Ferrari 500: Developed as a car for the secondary formula, yet Formula 2 was also a "Grand Prix formula" then.
Ferrari 625: Developed from the previous Formula 2 car by simply not much more than enlarging engine capacity
Brabham´s Bobtail: Under-engined development of a sports car with the sole intention to start in a Formula 1 race
Cooper T43/45: Formula 2 cars with still under-capacity engine, more or less by instance into Formula 1, yet competitive enough for occasional wins
Lotus 18: Formula 1 car or Formula 2 car or Formula Junior?
South African Specials: Built to run in a series that complied at 95% with Formula 1, but no V8 allowed...
Brabham BT 11 and Lotus 33 (1966): Stop gaps with outdated and underpowered engine, yet sole intention was to run it in F1
Lola/BMW 269: More or less a testbed which did not fit into another category than Formula 1
March 721G: Again a stop gap, replaced the failure 721X and was basically a car intended and developed for Formula 2 with a Formula 1 engine.


As always in this historic mess it is hard to find the right borderline...

[David McKinney]

Why do you need any definition other than "a car which raced in a Grand Prix"?

[fines]

What about the Silverstone Int. Trophy, or the Brands RoC? Shan't we include them in our survey???

[David McKinney]

Yes of course
A race could be a Grand Prix without having those words in its title

[Ray Bell]

No thoughts on the last win for carburettors?

I have an idea I know which car did it, but I can't find the proof!

[fines]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Yes of course
A race could be a Grand Prix without having those words in its title

Like the Indy 500?



I guess we're moving round in circles here!

[BRG]

It's not really statistical, but this seems a handy place to ask.   The following is not a cheap shot at Indy, but a genuine question and one for the Indy historians.

 

Indy still has Carb(uration) Day as a warm-up to the race.  When was the last Indy car that was fitted with carburettors?  I guess the turbocharged Offies might have blown through carbs at first but probably switched to injection as it developed.  Where the Ford V8s of the 60s on downdraught Webers or injection?

 

Any ideas?

 

I want to say the Lotus 29s, they certainly did, but there may have been something later. Not that I know of though.

 

Yes, Clark and Gurney in 1963.

Sure it's been discussed in a TNF thread or three down the years but you know what the search facility is like here...

I raised the question of the last use of carbs in Indy in another thread but have now found this one.  Can TNF enlarge on this question - so far focusing on F1 but now looking at Indycars proper?

[sabrejet]

Why do you need any definition other than "a car which raced in a Grand Prix"?

 

So we are going to include the 1970 Mugello Grand Prix for example? Because I'm sure Arthur Appleby's Austin-Healey Sprite TF was on SU's.

 

Must be some sports car grand prix which include injected engines pre-1955 too.

[rl1856]

Ford Quad Cam V8 was injected.   I believe the previous Ford Indy V8 of 1963 used carburetors.     

 

Offy 270 engines were using Hillborn FI in 1950, as noted.  By 1952, FI engines were used by many of the top qualifiers, and were starting to demonstrate consistent performance and superiority.  A well tuned Offy 270 of 1952, and using FI, was capable of about 345-350 HP, with outputs approaching 400hp when using a higher % of Nitromethane in a fuel mixture.     This was about the same output as the Ferrari 375 V12 (please correct if wrong).   One of the virtues of the Offy engine was a broad torque curve, enhancing acceleration.   Begs the question of how it would have performed in proper F1/GP use ?   There is very little to go on here, mostly anecdotal information.   A Ferrari 375 was prepared by the factory for entry at Indy in 1952, and did not perform well.   The Race of Two Worlds c1957-58 showed just how powerful and fast Indy style cars were.  In the 58 race, both Ferrari and Maserati fielded cars that were competitive, which also begs the question of how they would have performed at Indy.  The Eldorado Maserati was brought to Indy in 1959, but with indifferent preparation and a relatively unknown driver.  The car failed to qualify.

 

As for what is or is not a "GP" or "F1" car, my opinion is to refer to the rules.   If the rules allow for the running of the car, then it can be a considered a GP or F1 car.  Many will point to a distinction between "proper" and "adapted" as way to elevate or degrade a specific car when regarded in retrospect.  There are examples of "proper" cars serving two purposes, in which case the car can also be considered to have been "adapted".    Several that come to mind are the Matra Ford V8 that JYS convincingly drove at S Africa in 1968.  This was a F2 chassis, stuffed with extra fuel tanks, and a Cosworth V8 hung on the back.  I think we can agree that it proved more than capable of succeeding in F1, though it was not a "proper" bespoke GP car  The Eagle chassis of 1966-68, which was either a F1/GP car, or an Indy car depending on how it was used, but it was the same basic chassis.  The same can be said of the Hond-ola which won the Italian GP in 67, and was a version of the Lola Indy Chassis that won the 500 in 1966, and performed well in 1967.    The March 721X / 721G was mentioned in this context.

 

The Lotus 18 is an interesting case.   Several Lotus 18 (Loti ?) appeared in qualifying for the 1960 US GP at Riverside, having been entered by US owners.  Colin Chapman was said to have remarked that the did not know he sold that many GP spec 18s.   Enterprising owners purchased F2 and  FJR designated 18s, and uprated them to 2.5L Climax engines.   How dissimilar were GP spec 18s from F2 and Jr spec cars ?

[Bob Riebe]

No way to look it up  but I believe George Follmer won a Formula A race with a Boss Ford on carbs 1970.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 27 August 2020 - 17:57.

[Lee Nicolle]

No way to look it up  but I believe George Follmer won a Formula A race with a Boss Ford on carbs 1970.

Formula A, soon to become 5000. They were using Webers on 5000s right to the end. And many historic 5000s are rightly on carbs.

Injection was expensive and not super reliable either. And power increase was not that much more either.

Off subject speedway Super Sedans had to go back onto carbs probably late 80s. Most were faster on a single 4bbl. All on methanol ofcourse.

The reason my Sports Sedan stayed on a single 4bbl. And I had more straight line speed than most.

[Sisyphus]

No way to look it up  but I believe George Follmer won a Formula A race with a Boss Ford on carbs 1970.

Mont-Tremblant, Aug 1, 1970 and Mid Ohio, Sept 27, 1970 in a Lotus 70.

 

F5000 is well documented on line.  PM me if you want to know where.

[Bob Riebe]

Mont-Tremblant, Aug 1, 1970 and Mid Ohio, Sept 27, 1970 in a Lotus 70.

 

F5000 is well documented on line.  PM me if you want to know where.

What did Gus Hutchison have on his Formula 1 Ford when he won two Formula A races 1970.

[Jim Thurman]

No way to look it up  

 

Bob, here's a link to F5000 results and standings online:

https://www.oldracin...s.com/f5000/us/

[Bob Riebe]

Bob, here's a link to F5000 results and standings online:

https://www.oldracin...s.com/f5000/us/

Thank you but I am aware of such sites but they generally do not have mechanical details.