42 replies to this topic

[KzKiwi]

I am impressed! What a fantastic forum. As a recent 'discoverer' of this forum I am hooked. I am from New Zealand and a few of you may recall that we had 3 very talented GP drivers in the 1960s and early 70s (Amon, Hulme and McLaren) as well as an unfulfilled talent in the form of Thackwell in the late 70s and early 80s. Not bad for a small country in the South Pacific! Do any of you know what is the most successful nation with regards to most GP drivers per head of population?

[This message has been edited by KzKiwi (edited 02-26-2000).]

[Psychoman]

Hmmm... tough to say. I know Britain has the most drivers period (America barely, however, if you count World Championship races at Indy) and Finland has the most champions compared to drivers--only about 20 drivers, but 2 WDC drivers (Hakkinen and Rosberg).

------------------
"Hey there, all you middle men
Throw away your fancy clothes
And while you're out there sittin' on a fence
So get off your ass and come down here
'Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
To me it makes good, good sense"
-Brian Johnson

[Keir]

Hey, KzKiwi,
Nice to have someone else from down under.
I'm a big Amon fan and I am interested in all things related to the "Golden Kiwi".
Do you have anything of interest?

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

One day a friend of mine was talking to Frank Gardner about Amon, and pondering his lack of Success.
"I think he gets on the piss the night before the race, that sort of thing said Frank."
Gardner raced F1 in the early sixties, in the wake of Brabham's two titles. Then in the late sixties came Schenken. Larry Perkins got a rough drive in the seventies, as did Alan Jones, who rose above that to take a world title and nearly get a second one.
Other Australians (off the top of my head) to race in F1 were: David Brabham, Warwick Brown, Paul England and Austin Miller.

[Keir]

Ray,
Now that's a first!!!
Chris Amon did enjoy a drink or two, or three, but Chris, was and is, a very superstitious
person and drinking was something he avoided prior to race weekends. Now after the racing was over - bottoms up!!!
I tend to think Frank was pulling your friend's leg rather hard, while keeping his tongue firmly "in cheek".

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Megatron]

Britan has the most drivers to enter a GP. Suprisingly, America is second, but that number is helped out tremendously by the fact that the Indy 500 was once a points paying F1 race.

[Ray Bell]

One day a friend of mine was talking to Frank Gardner about Amon, and pondering his lack of Success.
"I think he gets on the piss the night before the race, that sort of thing said Frank."
Gardner raced F1 in the early sixties, in the wake of Brabham's two titles. Then in the late sixties came Schenken and David Walker. Larry Perkins got a rough drive in the seventies, as did Alan Jones, who rose above that to take a world title and nearly get a second one.
Other Australians (off the top of my head) to race in F1 were: David Brabham, Warwick Brown, Paul England and Austin Miller.

[Ray Bell]

One day a friend of mine was talking to Frank Gardner about Amon, and pondering his lack of Success.
"I think he gets on the piss the night before the race, that sort of thing said Frank."
Gardner raced F1 in the early sixties, in the wake of Brabham's two titles. Then in the late sixties came Schenken and David Walker. Larry Perkins got a rough drive in the seventies, as did Alan Jones, who rose above that to take a world title and nearly get a second one.
Other Australians (off the top of my head) to race in F1 were: David Brabham, Warwick Brown, Paul England and Austin Miller.

[Ray Bell]

Sorry, forgot Paul Hawkins..

[Falcadore]

KzKiwi:
An interesting question indeed. Finland and New Zealand would have to be up there... If you'd like to forward that question to faq@atlasf1.com then it can be included in a future F1 FAQ in a future Atlas Formula One weekly issue, thus giving me an excuse to try and research it, although not the next one as that's close to being finalised now.

yours
Mark Alan Jones

[KzKiwi]

Alright I am hooked - even started researching my own question I have had a quick count of GP drivers entries from the start of the 1950 season to the end of the 1993 season (including drivers who DNQ or DNS)with some interesting results. Some of these include:

Monte Carlo, 1 (Name him if you can!)
Thailand, 1 (Ditto)
Austria, 12
Belguim, 22
Australia, 15 (That may give Ray Bell some
sleepless nights)
New Zealand,8 (gave me some sleepless nights)
USA, 50
Sweden, 9
Italy, 86
Switzerland, 21 (Ironic considering their
stand on Motor racing)
Portugal, 3
France, 64
Ireland, 10
Japan, 9
England,132

Of course as in any statistics there are some 'twists' in these figures e.g Eddie Cheever (born in Italy ,raced under USA nationality). No allowance has been made for each countries population either - that is the next step I will complete to solve the puzzle.

BTW Ray did you ever get a contact for Eion Young? He has a website I believe that is still active. Did Austin Miller compete in a WC GP, or just the Ausi GP?

Keir, I have the book 'Trio at the Top' which has info about Amon in it. You may already have it. I also have various articles from 'Motorsport' magazines over the years. Fate and lack of luck intervened with Amons career that earned that dreaded nickname of best driver never to win a GP.

[This message has been edited by KzKiwi (edited 02-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by KzKiwi (edited 02-26-2000).]

[f li]

I should hope that you won't take too many whacks if you've lumping Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, etc in with the English. Only an American (from the US like myself) should make a mistake like that. I was given to understand by my friends in England - hell no they're Scots. Dunno, at my age what do I know?

Prince Birabongse Bhanudej Bhanubandh for Siam?

[This message has been edited by f li (edited 02-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by f li (edited 02-26-2000).]

[Keir]

KzKiwi,
Yes , "Trio at the Top" was one of my first purchases and my personal "Amon" collection is quite extensive. One missing link is an "Autosport" interview from 1976, which focused on the recent success of Chris and the Ensign N176-Ford. I would love to have a look at that!!
I'm sure there are other bits out there and as I have said, anything "Amon" is of interest to me.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

My heart says "Chiron" but my mind says it was someone else... maybe Maurice?
Austen Miller, to the best of my knowledge, ran in the German GP of 1957. I may well be wrong on this, it may have only been Paul England...
Am I allowed to be mistaken. Clearly, 15 in total means I have to dig a little.

[Falcadore]

15?
That would be...
Tony Gaze
Jack Brabham
Paul England
Frank Gardner
Paul Hawkins
Tim Schenken
Dave Walker
Alan Jones
Warwick Brown
Vern Schuppan
Larry Perkins
Gary Brabham
David Brabham

the last 2 required digging and found the following,
Ken Kavanagh
Brian McQuire

no trace of Austin Miller though

for Monaco?
both Louis Chiron and Olivier Beretta list their nationality as from the principality but also Andre Testut whom I had to dig to find.

For the records top ten
United States 155 (drops to 43 without the Indy 500's)
Great Britian 151
Italy 92
France 64
Germany 44
Argentina 24
Brazil 22
Switzerland 22
Belgium 21
South Africa 19

As for world champions per number of drivers?
Finland 33.3% (2/6)
Austria 15.4% (2/13)
Brazil 13.6% (3/22)
Australia 13.3% (2/15)
New Zealand 12.5% (1/8)
Canada 8.3% (1/12)
Great Britian 5.3% (8/151)
South Africa 5.3% (1/19)
United States 4.7% (2/43)
Argentina 4.2% (1/24)
Germany 2.3% (1/44)
Italy 2.2% (2/92)
France 1.6% (1/64)

Wins
183 Great Britian (Mansell, Stewart, Clark, Hill, Moss, Hill, Hunt, Brooks, Coulthard, Surtees, Watson, Irvine, Collins, Hawthorn, Herbert, Ireland)
79 Brazil (Senna, Piquet, Fittipaldi, Pace)
79 France (Prost, Arnoux, Laffite, Pironi, Depailler, Jabouille, Tambay, Trintignant, Alesi, Beltoise, Cevert, Panis)
41 Austria (Lauda, Berger, Rindt)
41 Germany (Schumacher, Frentzen, von Trips, Mass)
39 Italy (Ascari, Patrese, Alboreto, Farina, de Angelis, Baghetti, Bandini, Brambilla, Fagioli, Musso, Nannini, Scarfiotti, Taruffi)
36 Argentina (Fangio, Reutemann, Gonzalez)
26 Australia (Brabham, Jones)
22 United States (Andretti, Gurney, Hill, Revson, Ginther)
19 Finland (Hakkinen, Rosberg)
17 Canada (Villeneuve, Villeneuve)
12 New Zealand (Hulme, McLaren)
12 Sweden (Peterson, Bonnier, Nilsson)
11 Belgium (Ickx, Boutsen)
10 South Africa (Scheckter)
7 Switzerland (Regazzoni, Siffert)
2 Mexico (Rodriguez)

for other stats you'll have to wait until I'm less tired or look them up yourself at FORIX

[This message has been edited by Falcadore (edited 02-27-2000).]

[BRG]

Falcadore, a masterwork!!

Sorry to pick holes, but don't forget that amongst the British winners was Peter Gethin (Italy 1971).

So the answer to the original question must surely be Monaco, with three drivers (Chiron, Berretta and Testut) from a population of genuine (as opposed to tax exiles) Monegasques numbered only in thousands.

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Ray Bell]

Who is Ken Cavanagh?
And when did Brian McGuire run in F1?
I know the latter raced F5000 and was killed in a Lola, but never heard of him in F1.

[KzKiwi]

BRG is spot on with his answer. Monaco has the most GP drivers per head of population, with approximately 1 driver per 11,500 people. Liechtenstein is second with 1 driver per 20,000 people, the driver being Ricky Von Opel from 1973 and 74.

I agree with BRG though as both of these 'countries'distort the figures due to their 'tax exile' status. At the end of the day though they are independent nations.With regards to Beretta being a Monaco national my understanding is he resided in Monaco but travelled on a French passport. This leaves Chiron and Testnut as the Monaco drivers.Incidentally B.Bira is the driver from Thailand (ex Siam).

Congrats to Falcadore - impressive research. I must find this FORIX website. Spot on with the Australians. Austin Miler definately did not compete in the 1957 German GP. I believe that Ken Kavanagh had a background in the 2 wheeled brigade (500 cc GP bikes?).

I could only get to 132 English drivers though, not 151. I have also not included the Indianapolis races in my American drivers
list - i probably need to. As their population is around 250 million they do not rank highly on the list anyway.

Top 10 nations based on GP drivers from the start of 1950 to the end of the 1998 season (yes i have updated records)are as follows:

1) Monaco 1:11,500
2) Liechtenstein 1:20,000
3) Switzerland 1:281,818
4) England 1:340,909
5) New Zealand 1:350,000
6) Belgium 1:417,391
7) Ireland 1:480,000
8) Austria 1:528,571
9) Italy 1:572,043
10)Scotland 1:625,000

In compiling this there is a variable in which population figures to use, as most are 'official estimates'. I have also used population figures from the early 1970s as an 'average' for the 50 years of GP racing.

Exceptions to these include countries such as Japan, Canada, Ireland and Chile, where most of their drivers have entered GP racing in the 1980s and 90s. In these cases I have used population figures from the same periods.

I know its not perfect but it is a start.

Comments and constructive criticism welcomed!

[BRG]

Ray

I don't know about Ken Cavanagh but Brian McGuire entered the British GP in 1976 and 1977. He was a reserve the first year (Williams FW04) but did not get a run and in 1977 he failed to prequalify his McGuire BM1-Cosworth.

Does anyone know about the McGuire car? Was it a modified version of something else or an original design?



------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[BRG]

1. Ray - I just had a thought (a rare occasion) and sure enough, it paid off. It was Ken Kavanagh (with a K not a C). Apparently he entered a Maserati (250F?) for the Monaco and Belgian GPs in 1958, nonqualifying and retiring with engine problems respectively.

2. KzKiwi - good stuff, but can we have a figure for the UK rather than Scotland and England? They aren't separate countries (yet) for motorsport puposes, unlike football or cricket.

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Kuwashima]

Well, Ray, I have read some different information on McGuire.

We discovered while researching Spaniard Emilio Zapico for a profile on our site, that the same car Zapico used (and failed to qualify at Jarama in) was eventually bought by McGuire, and he entered THAT car (the FW04) in 1977, under his own name (not in 76).

Furthermore, it was in the same car that he was killed at Brand Hatch, not a Lola.

But, as always, we are most likely wrong! Where did you find your info from? 'Cause I'd like to fix what we have on our site if it's incorrect!



------------------
Formula One Rejects
www.crosswinds.net/~f1rejects
Profiles of the WORST drivers and teams in Grand Prix history

[Ray Bell]

Well, I do have to retreat from my memories. All I knew about McGuire was that he raced F5000 in a Lola, that Peter Brock spoke about spending time with him in England at a sorting session with the Lola, and that he was killed. I suppose I just added 2 and 2 without knowing which 2s they were...
But now I know!

[Barry Lake]

It's nice to know I am not the only idiot who stays up all night studying statistics.
Here is my list of Australian GP drivers.

Tony Gaze (Vic) 1952 (3 starts in HWM)

Jack Brabham (NSW) 1955-1956-1957-1958-1959-1960-1961-1962-1963-1964-1965-1966-1967-1968-1969-1970 (126 GPs in Cooper, Maserati, Lotus and Brabham cars. 13 pole positions, 14 wins, World Champion 1959, 1960, 1996)

Paul England (Vic) 1957 (1 start in Cooper Climax)

Frank Gardner (NSW) 1965 (6 starts in Brabham-BRM)

Paul Hawkins (Vic) 1965 (3 starts in Lotus)

Tim Schenken (Vic) 1970-1971-1972-1973-1974 (33 starts in de Tomaso, Brabham, Surtees, ISO, and Trojan)

David Walker (NSW) 1971-1972 (10 starts in Lotus)

Vern Schuppan (SA) 1974-1975-1977 (9 starts in Ensign, Hill and Surtees)

Alan Jones (Vic) 1975-1976-1977-1978-1979-1980-1981-1983-1985-1986 (116 starts in Hesketh, Surtees, Shadow, Williams, Arrows and Lola-Haas. 6 pole positions, 12 wins, World Champion 1980)

Larry Perkins (Vic) 1976-1977 (11 starts in Boro-Ensign, Brabham, BRM and Surtees)

Warwick Brown (NSW) 1976 (1 start in Williams)

David Brabham (NSW) 1990 (8 starts in Brabham) and 1994 (16 starts in Simtek).

Australian drivers who have participated in official practice for GPs but have not started.

Ken Kavanagh (NSW) 1958 (qualified for Belgian GP in Maserati, did not start)
Brian Maguire (Vic) 1977 (failed to pre-qualify McGuire-Williams-Ford, British GP)
Gary Brabham (NSW) 1990 (failed to pre-qualify for any GP in Life)

Australian drivers who have scored points in World Championship GPs:
Jack Brabham 126 GPs, 261 points scored
Alan Jones 116 GPs, 206 points scored
Tim Schenken 33 GPs, 7 points scored

Ken Kavanagh was, indeed, a successful international motorcycle racer. He bought a Maserati 250F, as did another Australian motorcycle racer Keith Campbell. The latter raced his 250F in only two events, at Goodwood and Aintree, in 1958.
The chassis number of Kavanagh's car was 2527, Campbell's 2526.
Austin Miller did not start in any GPs, nor did he try to qualify for any.

[This message has been edited by Barry Lake (edited 02-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Barry Lake (edited 02-29-2000).]

[Falcadore]

KZkiwi
try http://www.forix.com

most Formula One drivers reside in Monaco but travel under other passports so I imagine that Beretta may actually have a reason for claiming to be of Monaco other than that.

[Ray Bell]

I was sure Hawkins went into the harbour earlier than 1965 - have you missed something there, Barry.
My confusion with Aussie Miller was that England drove the Miller Special in the German GP... Where was the Sabakat?
That question could make the foreign students wonder, couldn't it?

[Megatron]

For the record, Eddie Cheever was born in the US but his family moved to Italy shortly after he was born.

In contrast, Mario Andretti was born in Italy and his family moved to the US shortly afterwards. Mario adopted his new country as his new nationailty, Eddie kept his old one.

[Ray Bell]

...green cards are cheaper that way - ask my son!

[Barry Lake]

Keir - and others interested in McLaren, Hulme and Amon.

There was a book called "Champions of Speed", which is about McLaren, Amon and Hulme, written by Richard Becht and published in New Zealand by Moa Beckett Publishers Limited in 1993.
I discovered it only last year. Becht is a general sporting writer but has had a lifelong interest in motor sport.
The book is far from the definitive article and won't go down as one of the "greats" but there is a lot of additional recent information. He interviewed at length, for example, Denny's wife (or ex-wife) Greta and she added some interesting insights.
I paid, $60 Australian for it (around $US40.
It is long out of print but a fellow named Peter Russell in Melbourne bought up the last few and is now selling them from home. I can't find an address for him.
I hope he won't mind my giving out his phone numbers.

They are:
+61-3-9359-9261 (home)
+61-3-9361-7220 (work)

The work number is a second hand motoring book shop - I can't at the moment think of the name of it - so you might be able to buy some other out of print books from him while you're at it.

[Keir]

Barry,
This is one book I have just heard about recently. Was it only released down-under?
Does the section on Amon deal with his carreer or his more recent history?
Thanks for any info.
Keir

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Barry Lake]

Keir
I think the book Champions of Speed was only sold in New Zealand. I hadn't seen it in Australia or any of the overseas catalogues I get - and I look very closely. Until that fellow brought the last few to Australia, I don't think it had been here at all.
To be honest, I didn't read the Chris Amon part of it, only Denny Hulme.
As I said it's relatively light weight and only an overview of their careers. But the author did speak to the people involved. I am pretty sure he spoke to Amon and got some interesting reflections.
I can't make the time to dig the book out right now; I am trying to get ahead in my writing so I can go to the GP.
In a couple of weeks I could give you a better idea.

[karlcars]

Just a note that I was very close to Chris in the 1967-1973 period, when a colleague and I were trying to get sponsorship for his Can-Am efforts. We had modest success. Thus we have quite a lot of Amon material at our library at library@ludvigsen.com. Chris kindly agreed to write the foreword to my book on Jackie Stewart.

And if I'm not mistaken Chris did win a couple of GPs -- though not Championship ones, darn it!

------------------
Karl Ludvigsen

[KzKiwi]

More on these Australians!

Kuwashima, I have found a reference in 'Autocourse history of the GP car 1966-85'(edited by Dug Nye so it stands a good chance of being correct) about Brian McGuire. Apparently He raced the Williams FW04 (chassis #1) in 1976. This was modified in a 'serious' attempt to go GP racing in 1977. As a result the car was renamed the'McGuire BM 1'.
It was this car he was killed in at a national meeting at Brands Hatch in the same year (car crashed and somersaulted, killing 2 spectators or marshalls as well).

Ray, did Paul England race the 'Miller special'in the German GP, or was it a Cooper?
I know the Miller was a 'modified' Cooper but how much so?

Keir, apologies for not mentioning 'Champions of speed' before. This book is still available in bookstores here. Come to think of it, I saw a small book at a library the other day that was about Amon and co winning Le mans in the 60s. Will find out more if you like. See he could (and did) win races!!!

[This message has been edited by KzKiwi (edited 03-02-2000).]

[Barry Lake]

KzKiwi
The car Paul England raced in the German GP was a Cooper Type 41 Climax 1.5 litre, chassis number F2-2-56.
I am sure Ray Bell will answer this one too. I suspect the person who knows the story most accurately would be Graham Howard (we should get him onto this forum).
As I understand it, two Australian racing drivers (whose names I have deliberately forgotten - although Ray will probably mention them), who were involved in crop-dusting or similar, went to England reputedly to buy aircraft parts.
When they arrived back in Australia they had enough "aircraft parts" to build a "Miller Special" that looked identical to a Cooper-Climax F2 and a "Sabakat" special that was remarkably like a Lotus 12 Climax F2.
My memory of the story is a little hazy and I am not sure of the reliability of the source(s), but I remember being told that they came back in an aircraft (perhaps a new one they bought and flew back?). And the "aircraft parts" had to be cut up into pieces, (a) to fit in the plane, and (b) so they were obviously aircraft parts.
I also have been told, quite recently, that John Cooper was quite startled when said driver took a hacksaw and cut his "parts" to pieces before his eyes, to be welded together again when they arrived in Australia.
If Ray or anyone knows a more accurate version of the story than that I would be pleased to read it.

[Keir]

Hey KzKiwi,
Maybe we can turn this into an Amon thread?
I was always curious why there wasn't that much written about Chris in his native country.
We fans all knew that Chris was a winner, but sometimes you have to look a little deeper than results for your heros.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

Barry is quite right in assuming that I might loosen up on these names he so conveniently forgets. They were obvious Aussie Miller and the so-far unmentioned Ern Tadgell.
As far as I know there were no mods to the Cooper, though the Sabakat was later to wear a Lycoming engine or somesuch. Barry is right again - Graham Howard (who owned the car in its rebuilt guise) would know more than probably anyone. Or maybe Paul England.
A quick quiz: Anyone know (Barry excluded) what gearbox this F2 Lotus 12 (with Climax FPF engine) had?
This one didn't have the 'normal' configuration of ZF transaxle, but was fitted with a BMC differential. There is one clue - the clutch slave cylinder was mounted on top of the bellhousing.

[David McKinney]

Here I go again, dragging up long-dead threads.
When Paul England used to visit NZ about 20 years ago with F/Pacific cars, I once chatted to him about his European sortie. I had long realised that, in spite of its name, the Miller Special was a T41 Cooper, and in all innocence asked Paul, "Where did the Miller Special come from?" His reply was, "You're not going to catch me with that one!"
Which was when I realised the Miller Special was probably the ex-England Cooper-Climax....

[Wolf]

BRG, I know this is not what you meant when asking for joint statistics for England and Scotland, which should be appropriate, regatding GPs. But what I want to stress is that You're not entirely right- FIA considers them separate in World Rally Championships (I think that I can remember, of top of my head- both McRaes bearing St.Andrews crosses as national markings on their cars, and Grist, Colins codriver, has a Welsh flag next to his name).
BTW, not to make this entirely OT- IIRC there was Jimmy McRae entering GP events. There aren't big chances of me being wrong in assuming it's the same Jimmy McRae- Colins father, are they?

[Barry Boor]

Ray, I know your post was back in March, but I can confirm Barry's statistic regarding Paul Hawkins. It was 1965 - I was there, and heard the splash!

(Well, alright, I didn't hear the splash, I was sitting near the starting grid on run between the Gasworks and St. Devote, but it WAS '65.)

Also, regarding statistics for Great Britain, as an Englishman resident in Wales, believe me you MUST separate the nations of the U.K. Until I moved here, I thought I was British; now I am often and fairly forcibly reminded that I am, in fact, English.

[David McKinney]

I am sure the McRae brothers would use RAC licences, which makes them British in the motorsport context, regardless of what flags they like to put on their car. They are certainly Scottish nationals, and proud of it, but I am sure the FIA does not recognise the constituent countries of the UK as independent nations - largely because they are not (yet...)

[Roger Clark]

Going further back in time, Segrave is always regarded as Britain's leading GP driver of the 1920s, even though he was born in what is now the Republic of Ireland.

[Falcadore]

Don't encourage us, the Queenslanders might unite behind Joh Bjelke-Peterson and Dick Johnson and set up border control at Tweed Heads.

Apologies at the horrendous injoke.

Double apologies for even mentions Joh in here.

[David McKinney]

Two points:
at the time of Segrave's birth there was no Republic of Ireland, but instead a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. So, yes, strictly speaking, he would not have been British, but he would have been a citizen of the UK.
The other point is that he ws born in the USA (wich does not make him American)

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Two points:
at the time of Segrave's birth there was no Republic of Ireland, but instead a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. So, yes, strictly speaking, he would not have been British, but he would have been a citizen of the UK.
The other point is that he ws born in the USA (wich does not make him American)

Oh dear! I'd forgotten that he was born in the USA. Wasn't his mother American?

The point about the founding of the Republic was the one I wsa trying to make. Segrave's roots and his upbringing were in Ireland and he would presumably have been entitled to dual nationality when the Republic was founded in 1922,