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#1 rodlamas

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 10:06

Well, think it's time to start it, don't ya think?

Let's hope the 24 can bring us another WDC and the first WCC in more than a decade!

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#2 bogi

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 10:07

2nd post.


Tim Goss delivered.

Pat Fry's turn now :up:

#3 Modern Lover

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 10:55

Originally posted by bogi
2nd post.


Tim Goss delivered.

Pat Fry's turn now :up:


Indeed.

But I do have high expectations for the MP4-24. Anyone know the launch date or is it way to early for that?

Anything with reagrds to sponsors? Is Santander seeing out their contract, any new ones coming in?

This is going to be one of the best off-seasons for a long time :up:

#4 bogi

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:41

Launch mid january as usual.

#5 Hyatt

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:43

i wonder if they finally get a satellite-team with Force-India ... it often looked like it was going to happen but then it didnt ...

#6 AFCA

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:45

It depends on Ferrari, they're willing to have a compensation because Mallya would be breaking their contract.

#7 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 11:56

Next year McMerc will be allowed to use the special breaking system no more locked breaks???

#8 bogi

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:00

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Next year McMerc will be allowed to use the special breaking system no more locked breaks???


:confused:

#9 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:01

Originally posted by bogi


:confused:


in 2008 they were not allowed to use a breaking system that Ferrari (and probably all the other teams) were using because of spygate...

#10 bogi

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:07

Originally posted by Mika Mika


in 2008 they were not allowed to use a breaking system that Ferrari (and probably all the other teams) were using because of spygate...


Cleared :)

offtopic:

Change nick to ''Mika Mika Lewis'' :smoking:

#11 Hyatt

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:09

Originally posted by Mika Mika


in 2008 they were not allowed to use a breaking system that Ferrari (and probably all the other teams) were using because of spygate...


i was sondering as well about this ... but afaik the spy-thingy was about the balance-systems that handels front/rear-braking balancing. And im not sure if i ever saw Kova locking a frontwheel like Lewis does ... so maybe its a Lewis-specific problem.

#12 Mika Mika

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:12

Deffo seen Heikki lock up a bit,

More here :-
http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1403

#13 bogi

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 12:13

Introduced a few races back and used again in Brazil is this evolution of McLaren's brake cooling drums. Previously the drums were open, with the brake disc not included within the carbon fibre cover, leaving the edge of the disc and its outer face open to the inducted airflow. Now the drum assembly has been completely changed, following a trend common to Ferrari and BMW Sauber. The closed drum reduces aero disruption, but does tend to increase the working temperature of the brake assembly, including the disc, pads and calliper. This increases the tendency for the front wheels to lock under heavy braking - noticeable in Brazil, where Hamilton flat-spotted a tyre in Friday's second session. McLaren have changed the material in the coupling between disc and pads, but it's not clear whether concerns have completely disappeared.



http://www.f1.com/ne...08/804/607.html

#14 Anomander

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 19:32

McLaren have being pretty quiet on the subject of Kers, I wonder how they are progressing (or Mercedes anyway)

#15 ashnathan

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 19:43

Originally posted by Anomander
McLaren have being pretty quiet on the subject of Kers, I wonder how they are progressing (or Mercedes anyway)


I am confident in our kers, norby himself said kers isnt a new thing to mercedes so they must know something about it.

Pat Fry's turn indeed, heres to hoping we scrap the skinny nose and head for a mp4/20 esque piece!

Cant wait to see if the new lok cars will really be as ugly as the williams was.

Mclaren have this ability of making an uglky car look not so ugly, hard to explain, but i hope they achieve this with the rear wings and other devices that are going to look strange, and of course for it to be the quickest car, bmw will be bgiggest threat early in the season is my tip.

#16 Anomander

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 19:48

Over in the F2009 thread someone mentioned that they are going to have standard noses?

I still not sure of this alternative design method, surly if a design was right and fast then you should stick with it and develop it.

Kers reminds me quite a bit of a supercharger which mercedes do have a lot of experience in.

#17 ATM_Andy

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 19:54

Originally posted by Anomander
Over in the F2009 thread someone mentioned that they are going to have standard noses?

I still not sure of this alternative design method, surly if a design was right and fast then you should stick with it and develop it.

Kers reminds me quite a bit of a supercharger which mercedes do have a lot of experience in.


A supercharger is quite different. A supercharger works by mechanically spinning a turbine, usually by a belt drive from the crankshaft, which then compresses the engine intake air.

Similar to a turbocharger, a turbo works in the same way however it is spun by having a second turbine, being spun by the engine exhaust gas, connected by a shaft to compress the engine intake air.

Both are forms of forced induction which is, currently, banned in the FIA technical regulations.

#18 Ferrari F1

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:00

McLaren run a 6 plane front nose as opposed to Ferraris three with standard planes wonder to see what happens. I think overall KERS might not make such a difference in the begining.

#19 pingu666

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:03

i think its the paint that makes em look good :)

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#20 Anomander

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:08

is it next year we lose santander or the year after?
If so I wonder who the next big sponsor will be, I wouldn't mind a change of colour scheme

#21 neilmundy

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:13

Originally posted by Anomander
is it next year we lose santander or the year after?
If so I wonder who the next big sponsor will be, I wouldn't mind a change of colour scheme


Vodafone is the big sponsor on the car so I don't expect a big colour change. I hope the Silver stays because it looks great and should be even better with 2009 clean aero.

#22 neilmundy

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:15

It is the year after if Santander leave, but they are looking at Ferrari for sponsor.

#23 Anomander

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 20:19

Originally posted by neilmundy


Vodafone is the big sponsor on the car so I don't expect a big colour change. I hope the Silver stays because it looks great and should be even better with 2009 clean aero.


My bad, getting the two mixed up :blush:

#24 mkay

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 22:38

Do you think that McLaren will suffer/lose its advantage because of the new aero rules?

#25 Jacquesback

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 23:05

Originally posted by mkay
Do you think that McLaren will suffer/lose its advantage because of the new aero rules?


Typically the big teams gain when their are significant rule changes. Right now I think Ferrari had the advantage, except for Lewis of course. This could be an opportunity for McLaren. Personally I think BMW may be first out of the gate for 2009 as they've been committing all of their resources to their new car for some time and have also been testing their kers system for a while. The other factor could be Honda, I have a feeling they're going to be right in there next year.

#26 scottb32

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 23:19

Originally posted by mkay
Do you think that McLaren will suffer/lose its advantage because of the new aero rules?

Don't know about the aero rules, but their cars will be significantly lighter:

--Hamilton's car will lose all the paint required to make a "2" and "2" and only gain the weight of a "1".
--In addition, Kovalainen will lose all the paint required to make the number "3" on his car.

Excellent performance upgrade for 2009!

#27 mkay

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 00:58

Funny. But we know the Ferrari gained a lot of stability with those winglets and stuff. Was it the same for McLaren (with the hornes, and then the bridge, and then the dumbo ears and the "boomerangs" as I call them)?

#28 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 01:56

Everything will be completely different next year so any advantage Mclaren or Ferrari had this year will be negated for next year.
Unfortunately Kimi always goes well in odd years so he will probably hook up pretty well with his car.

#29 peroa

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:54

Just popped on the santander.com website and there`s no mentioning whatsoever on the frontpage about LH or McLaren.

Just a picture of LH on the Abbey.com site.

#30 Hippo

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 11:03

Originally posted by mkay
Funny. But we know the Ferrari gained a lot of stability with those winglets and stuff. Was it the same for McLaren (with the hornes, and then the bridge, and then the dumbo ears and the "boomerangs" as I call them)?


All teams did that because the tires needed it. Easy put: the tire construction was so strong that the entire car balance (weight and aero) needed to be very much in the front of the car to get the tires working properly. Hence the massive aero work for the front wing.

According to many quotes regarding 09 that will change as in the balance will move backwards again. So the lack of bridge wing, dumbo wings and so on wont be a huge problem for any team. Also the wing itself (the main profile) gets more efficient anyways, because it will be wider and lower in 09.

Regarding KERS I think McLaren Mercedes should actually be in a good position. After all they had a system ready in 1998. Apparently they did even race it back then.

#31 Hyatt

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:16

Originally posted by Hippo

Regarding KERS I think McLaren Mercedes should actually be in a good position. After all they had a system ready in 1998. Apparently they did even race it back then.


im surprised to read that ... you know more about it?

#32 Rob

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:18

Originally posted by Hippo
Regarding KERS I think McLaren Mercedes should actually be in a good position. After all they had a system ready in 1998. Apparently they did even race it back then.


You're not thinking of the second brake pedal are you?

#33 Clatter

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:22

Originally posted by Hippo
Regarding KERS I think McLaren Mercedes should actually be in a good position. After all they had a system ready in 1998. Apparently they did even race it back then.


You sure about that?

I know they wanted to run it, but think the FIA turned down the idea before it was developed. I'm fairly sure that it was never used in a race. I also suspect that any KERS system from 10 years ago would be totally outdated and irrelevant today.

#34 Atreiu

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:31

My questions:

1 - will there be any big sponsors joining or leaving? I wish they would go back to black and grey liveries.

2 - when will they race with KERS installed?

#35 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:36

Originally posted by Atreiu
My questions:

1 - will there be any big ponsors


big ponce's? :rotfl:

#36 Hippo

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:38

Originally posted by Clatter


You sure about that?

I know they wanted to run it, but think the FIA turned down the idea before it was developed. I'm fairly sure that it was never used in a race. I also suspect that any KERS system from 10 years ago would be totally outdated and irrelevant today.


I only know what i read: http://grandprix.com/ns/ns01518.html
That article has been linked in the KERS-thread like 3 month ago iirc. The topic was also discussed in a German board a day or two ago. Someone linked another article there: http://www.racecar-e...the-basics.html

They made some assumptions there too, but no-one did provide any other news item that said something different. Yet, there is almost nothing to find from google or other boards like f1technical.net. So i don't know anything beyond those links.

#37 Gareth

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:38

Originally posted by Hippo
According to many quotes regarding 09 that will change as in the balance will move backwards again.

Quotes here from Patrick Head seem to suggest otherwise:

The dilemma about racing KERS at the start of the season is further complicated by the fact that next year's move to slick tyres means that teams ideally want as much weight as possible at the front of the car.

Williams co-owner Patrick Head believed that such an issue could force other teams to follow Toyota's lead and delay the introduction of the systems.

"We've got now four grooves in the front tyres, it started with three, and we've got four grooves in the rear tyre," explained Head.

"When you take those grooves out it increases the contact patch area more at the front in relative terms than it does at the back. That is quite likely to cause you to want to run quite forward weight distribution.

"I'm not sure what it's like for other people, but for us, with pretty much all of our ballast taken up with a KERS that we can't really run more forward than the impact area for the side impact test, it's very difficult for us to achieve the weight distribution that we suspect we will need to make a successful car next year.

"I think there will be quite a lot of teams going to the start of the year without KERS fitted on their cars, with a plan to progressively bring it in as and when they feel that it will make a better overall racing car.

"So I think there will be quite a lot of cars in Melbourne that might be KERS capable, designed to take KERS, but might not have it on right at the beginning.

"You have got to remember that the KERS, when you analyse the potential, the difference it makes can be somewhere between 0.1s and 0.3s, perhaps at the maximum 0.35s per lap, putting aside whether it helps you overtake.

"Having your weight distribution inappropriate for the tyres by more than one or two percent will probably make more difference than those one or two tenths of a second per lap.

"So I think we are presented with a lot of challenges and the KERS, to a large extent, is optional. There are a few teams that will treat it like that at the start of the year."



#38 Hippo

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 13:49

Yes Gareth, i remember that one. But AFCA recently quoted Brawn in the KERS-thread saying this:

Brawn:
Brawn explains the dilemma the engineers are in that are working on the recovery system. The unit is to way in between 30 and 40 kg. ''We're forced to put the basic weight distribution in the car in such a way that we're (still) able to balance the car with the little amount of ballast that remains. With regard to the usage of the tyres that is eminently important. Slicks demand a different weight distribution than grooved tyres. Those that do without KERS completely will obviously have more freedom there.''



So that either means even more weight and aero to the front or the opposite. I think the latter is more likely, since it is basically a tire construction issue. Sadly though no interviewer ever dared to ask a question like that after them drivers hed been testing the slicks despite them always linking the problems of Heidfeld for example to exactly that question. We'll see soon enough.

#39 undersquare

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by Hippo
Yes Gareth, i remember that one. But AFCA recently quoted Brawn in the KERS-thread saying this:

So that either means even more weight and aero to the front or the opposite. I think the latter is more likely, since it is basically a tire construction issue. Sadly though no interviewer ever dared to ask a question like that after them drivers hed been testing the slicks despite them always linking the problems of Heidfeld for example to exactly that question. We'll see soon enough.


Not sure if I've read this somewhere on here but I have an idea that the aero balance will be quite forward next year, with the wing and diffuser changes. Is that right anyone? I know the middle of the front wing is neutral or even gives a bit of lift, but it is a lot wider and the rear wing is a lot narrower.

Anyway if that's right then does the static weight distribution not have to match, to avoid big changes in balance with changes in speed?

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#40 Enkei

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 08:24

http://www.formula1....djm0805no47.jpg

If Lewis is to win two more titles he will get a McLaren F1 LM from Ron Dennis.
Last week he already received the scale model from Ron's hands :lol:

#41 ZooL

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 09:24

Does anybody know the budget McLaren have for their KERS?

And perhaps how this budget compares to the other teams ?

#42 z2z

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 09:28

Earlier this year, it has been said Mclaren are developing two different cars(chassis) ...can anyone confirm if its true ?
And if true, is it for different wheelbase or KERS_&_no_KERS ?

#43 ashnathan

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 09:54

Originally posted by z2z
Earlier this year, it has been said Mclaren are developing two different cars(chassis) ...can anyone confirm if its true ?
And if true, is it for different wheelbase or KERS_&_no_KERS ?


I think somewhere around hockenheim time norby haug dismissed that claim as nonsense? anyone confirm that? i dont think mclaren are developing a kers and non kers car. all i know is we will have kers next year from australia onwards...i think.

#44 Anomnader

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:09

Originally posted by kids like ash


I think somewhere around hockenheim time norby haug dismissed that claim as nonsense? anyone confirm that? i dont think mclaren are developing a kers and non kers car. all i know is we will have kers next year from australia onwards...i think.


mclaren kers business is a bit of a mystery, they've being one of the quietest teams whilst ferrari have come out loads of times and said they are behind (bluffing?)

#45 MonzaOne

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 10:24

The only reason anyone other than ALO will win the drivers title is if the Renault has problems - yes ALO is that much a superior driver to the rest and truly it is a pity.

#46 undersquare

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 11:23

Originally posted by Anomnader


mclaren kers business is a bit of a mystery, they've being one of the quietest teams whilst ferrari have come out loads of times and said they are behind (bluffing?)


Yes, I've seen some figures around $50-60m and rising for their kers budget. I have a good feeling somehow. Merc need something for all their 4x4's, they're in the same boat as BMW so I imagine they'll have been doing a lot, and Merc's high tech R&D is pretty hot. I liked Norby's quote earlier in the year that the resources were "100% for 2008 and 100% for 2009" :p .

Ferrari were depending on Magnetti M and stories were that Ferrari weren't happy with progress, so I don't know. I could see it being a problem, Gilles Simon said they were behind and Ferrari were trying to get kers delayed. For me it depends how far outside Ferrari's own engineering expertise it goes, I can see a brilliant transmission but not sure about the energy storage side - Toyota said Panasonic had been developing a whole new li-ion battery for kers, to take charge fast enough without overheating. That type of development might not be available to Ferrari.

#47 Oblivion

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 12:55

As far as I know Magnetti Marelli is preparing the KERS for three teams - Renault, Ferrari and Toyota. And they are behind the schedulle right now. From the other side Daimler has just presented S-Klasse with hybrid drivetrain. And the system they use looks very similar to KERS - storing energy from braking and discharge it to help the main engine.

#48 Hyatt

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 13:03

Toyota rely on external suppliers for their kers? ... im surprised to read that ...

#49 f1rules

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 18:27

http://formula-one.s...car-in-january/

#50 mursuka80

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Posted 06 November 2008 - 18:32

Originally posted by Enkei
Posted Image

If Lewis is to win two more titles he will get a McLaren F1 LM from Ron Dennis.
Last week he already received the scale model from Ron's hands :lol:


Why doesnt he buy one? Does it cost 20 million that Hammy cant afford :lol: