14 replies to this topic

[KzKiwi]

Karl, I have recently finished reading 'The Mercedes Benz racing cars', as written by you in 1971. For the new GP formula to be introduced in 1938 to 1940 M-B considered the possibility of 2 rear engined designs by Porsche, as mentioned in your excellent book.

I have also read somewhere that they considered a rear engine design/s at the start of 750 kg formula in the early 1930s. Are you able to confirm this, or is it incorrect?

[This message has been edited by KzKiwi (edited 03-03-2000).]

[John Cross]

Mercedes-Benz did consider a rear-engined car for 1934 - not surprising since both designers (Nibel and Wagner) were with Benz before the merger with Daimler, and Wagner worked on the rear-engined Benz GP car of 1923 (produced under patents held by Dr Rumpler). It was a Benz exponent, Adolf Rosenberger, who helped persuade Dr Porsche in his choice of layout for the P-Wagen which became the Auto Union.

Both the Mercedes and Auto Union of 1934 used the swing-axle of the 1923 Benz with gearbox in unit with the differential and both had independent front suspension as well - in fact they had more in common than there were differences! And they both had the 1923 Benz in their 'genes'!

[Dennis David]

John have you posted to the Introductions thread?

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[John Cross]

Not yet, but I will do.

[karlcars]

I agree with John that the Benz genetic makeup is very much present in the 1934 Mercedes as well as the Auto Union of the same year, especially as concerns the use of swing axles at the rear. However, in my research I found no evidence that Daimler-Benz had given any consideration to a rear-engined car for the 750 kg. Formula. On the contrary -- a study vehicle of sports-car configuration had been built around the time of Porsche's departure that had the front-engine/rear transaxle configuration of the Mercedes GP car. Thus the bloodline of the 1934 W25 seems to stem more from this than from the 1923 Benz.

Benz influence came more to the fore in the Mercedes passenger-car range with the 1934 introduction of the rear-engined 130 model. Ironically in the 1930s Mercedes-Benz built rear-engined production cars while Auto Union did not! The 130 story is outlined in my new book, 'Battle for the Beetle', which may be previewed at www.rb.com.

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Karl Ludvigsen

[John Cross]

The following was in 'The Racing Car: Development & Design' by Clutton, Posthumus & Jenkinson (this section of the book was by Jenkinson):

'Serious consideration was given to the building of a rear-engined Mercedes-Benz car for the new formula, but the final decision fell upon a more orthodox layout.'

And 'Auto Union V16 Supercharged' by Ian Bamsey said:

'Nibel and Wagner wind tunnel tested models of their ideas for appropriate front and mid engined body shapes and found similar drag coefficients.'

There is no mention of it in 'QuickSilver' by Cameron Earl (for which Karl wrote the excellent introduction) although most of the Mercedes section is based on interviews with Uhlenhaut, who was not (I don't think) involved with the 1934 car.

So I think they did look at both options, although there was more Benz influence in the passenger cars, as Karl says.

[Don Capps]

Karl,

That the MB 130 was rear-engned and the Auto Union production cars all front-engined is one of the wonderful ironies of life that I have always enjoyed...

By the way, welcome to the Forum John! Finally!

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[John Cross]

Thanks Don - I noticed a reference to the Nostalgia forum in one of your emails and then saw a link to it a few days ago on Leif's site. By the way - I finally did it in the 8W game - no 'On the points you missed' this time!

[Don Capps]

John,

Good for you!!!

I pulled together an 8W entry while on on airplanes in hotel rooms and pulled most of it out of the air. It wasn't intended as a serious entry, mostly to be a diversion and something to keep me from working on Work all the time. I did poorly, but expected to do poorly. I did the 70's & 80's in about 2 hours and probably spent just a few hours, 8 at most on it. I didn't intend to enter, but I detest travel...

Congratulations!!!


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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[KzKiwi]

John,

Thanks for providing the spark -'The racing car' was where i had read the comment about potential Mercedes Benz RE cars for the 750 kg formula (ref page 139 of softback edition).

Karls comments ensure that, at this stage, the question remains clouded. I would have thought that MB would have explored all avenues, based on their renowned attention to detail. Especially at the start of a new formula and with the link between the Benz RE car and the staff involved.

[Roger Clark]

I have read, in a number of places, that Auto-Union considered a front engined Straight 8 in 1938. Is there any evidence for this?

[Marcel Schot]

Don : at least you entered I didn't do any more that some rough stuff on the 70s and 80s..not worth sending in.

[John Cross]

Re Auto Union:

In 1938 Porsche was under contract to Daimler-Benz and Werner continued development, assisted by Eberhorst and Feuereissen. Werner had previously expressed the opinion that the mid engine layout was wrong, but Auto Union was now linked with this layout and to change it now would be an admission of defeat that would damage their credibility.

[f li]

Mr. Cross,

My recollection is AU was linked with rear engined cars - not mid engined cars. Should I be doing a parity error scan?

[John Cross]

Some used the word 'rear' to mean behind the driver, rather than behind the rear wheels - I think it is a case of terminology.