349 replies to this topic

[Vitesse2]

And talking of lookalikes: Tatra T607 anybody? Another rear-engined East European mystery car but with a very similar body style again.

[Brun]

Vitesse,

Such a coincidence. I read about the Tatra in the German library today :-) Not a mystery at all. It is a monoposto, built in 1950 with a V8 in the rear. The GDR magazine Illustrierte Motorsport features it in a 1953 issue. Driven by someone called Pawelka, it took 4th place at the Sachsenring that year. Tatra calls it the Typ 607, 2545 cc engine, 75 bore, 72 stroke, no compressor, 155 hp at 6000 rpm. 2250 mm between both axles, 1300 mm from left to right front weel. Tatra was inspired by Auto Union design, which explains it's Typ D-appearance.

Uechtel should have this magazine and might be able to do some scanning...

[uechtel]

Brun,

can you give me date and/or number of the magauine issue, makes it much easier to search for it.

Sorry, I am low on time today, so no scanning at the moment.

For a start perhaps the last passage of my article about the East German Eigenbaus will help, there are two pictures.

More about Tatra in these links:

http://www.team.net/...ktud/Tatra.html

http://www.tatra.demon.nl/

http://www.tatraworld.nl/

http://www.tatramuseum.cz/

http://www.tatra-register.de/

http://www.tatra-register.co.uk/

http://home.att.net/~mikekiley/

http://mujweb.atlas.cz/www/tomasm/

http://www.tatra.ru/history.html

[Holger Merten]

Brun, did you find some more construction details, like layout of the fuel-tank, where is the gear-box, behind the rear-axle or in behind the engine? How can we compare it with our other post war "silver arrows?

Richard, thanks for the photo, really a nice racing picture, do you have/know more?

Some words about Tatra: Hans Ledwinka, the technical director was responsible for some intersting rear-engindes streamlined Limousines in the 30ies, there are sources, that Ledwinka had the inspiration about the basic layout of the beetle and not Porsche, who sold it afterwards. Ledwinka had some progressive ideas, I don't know, if he was technical director in the 40ies/50ies any more. But I think, that he could be inspired by the AU Silverarrows.

Very interesting .

[Holger Merten]

Okay thanks to Uectels link-list, I found something about a Ledwinka-VW-Beetle-connection




The text by the Tatra museum is very, hmm, no details, only some "speculations":

"In 1933 was built type Tatra V570. Hans Ledwinka´s son, Erich Ledwinka, constructed this prototype of popular car. It was the first Tatra car with flat twin air-cooled rear engine. The form of the body of this car looks like the first prototypes of VW – beetle. For many years there is one question: What if VW – beetle was inspired by this prototype?"

You can find it under the english link.

And something more about theT 607.

[Ray Bell]

Looks like that picture's not available to just anyone, Holger...

Keeps asking for a password. That's something new.

[Holger Merten]

Yes Ray, it's a large firewall to my archive, but nice you asked me, coming to my house like a burgalar

Isn't it enough, it's on TNF?

[Holger Merten]

Going on in that AU 1.5 L thread with the Typ 650.

After the article about the Auto Union going to russia in the last issue of Oldtimer Markt, in the new issue is readers letter from a russian guy living in Germany since ten years. No new informations, but I got the adress from a man who worked at that car in the former Auto Union ZKB than later ATB, and I will contact that old man for an telefon interview.

The russian guy told me, that he was in contact with someone from the netherlands, may anybody from the dutch TNFlers were in contact with him?

[Racer.Demon]

As with the 1939 thread, this one needed someone to sort all the phenomenal details and turn it into an actual story. 8W has allowed that someone - Brun, thanks mate - to publish the first part of his work here, so feel free to comment. Also a big thank you to Holger for providing some great pictures portraying the people responsible for the car and other valuable additional information through his contacts with Audi Tradition.

The second part will be published early next year.

Merry reading, erm, Christmas

[Racer.Demon]

Quote

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
The second part will be published early next year.

And here it is!

[Holger Merten]

Quote

Originally posted by uechtel

According to my informations the ATB (Automobiltechnisches Büro) of the SAG Awtowelo was the successor of the ZVA (Zentrale Versuchsanstalt) of the Auto Union and the ZKB (Zentrales Entwicklungs- und Konstruktionsbüro) was transformed into the ATB (Automobiltechnisches Büro) right after the war. Then both bureaus merged into the FEW (Forschungs- und Entwicklungswerk) of the IFA, which took control over all automobile developments of the GDR from April, 1st, 1951. This itself was relieved in its function by the ZEK (Zentrale Entwicklung und Konstruktion für den Kraftfahrzeugbau) in 1955. When in 1963 the factories succeeded in gaining their independence again all what was left over at Chemnitz (...ahem Karl-Marx-Stadt) was the WTZ (Wissenschaftlich-Technisches Zentrum), which was itself dissolved in 1984...

So how comes that according to the list all those institutions have existed simultaneously where I supposed them to succeed one another?

Therefore it would be very interesting for me to know in which year that sheed of paper was printed. Further hints to this riddle:

So is it possible, that the list does not give the structure of the R&D office at Chemnitz at a moment, but rather its history?

Uechtel, yesterday I checked some more sources, the piece of paper is from 2000 and shows the chronological history. And you are right; there was a Russian R&D dept. located in the "Kauffahrtei 45", and a German R&D dept. located nearby in the "Kauffahrtei 31". Another interesting fact still exists; there was just a small R&D dept. in Eisenach. So for the Sokol the question is: Was the car developped by the "Russian AU" or by the "German AU", which brings up the question, for whom the car was constructed?

And I found a better chart as a tree about the chronological history of the R&D history of eastern German car development. Will show it here.

[Brun]

Quote

Originally posted by Holger Merten



Uechtel, yesterday I checked some more sources, the piece of paper is from 2000 and shows the chronological history. And you are right; there was a Russian R&D dept. located in the "Kauffahrtei 45", and a German R&D dept. located nearby in the "Kauffahrtei 31". Another interesting fact still exists; there was just a small R&D dept. in Eisenach. So for the Sokol the question is: Was the car developped by the "Russian AU" or by the "German AU", which brings up the question, for whom the car was constructed?

Holger, you definately should re-read our articles on 8W again.

[Holger Merten]

Brun, it was more the idea to keep the people informed on TNF: I believe in Uechtel, he will read our Sokol article, but what about some others reading this thread, not knowing 8W.

And it's my respect for Uechtels work, telling him, Hey, you are right.

I think this is more than fair in a forum.

[Brun]

Ah, must have misunderstood you

[Holger Merten]

Yes, cause, it's an interesting chapter of eastern German history.


Looking through my sources the last two hours, it will be a fact tat there was an interest of the Russsians to find out more about AU car manufactuing, but after 1951 the whole GDR R&D was concentrated on military aspects - and with this aspect Eisenach was out of the race, cause the governant believed in AU know how and supported them by political interests.

Therefore the time between 1945 - 1955 is very interesting and there was no clear line in researching a true way in devellloping cars.

And that makes it difficult to find out the roles of the Rennsport Kollektiv as well as the role of former AU employees, who left GDR after 1950.


But in my new sources I could interpretate a way through that tunnel. Keep you informed.;)

[uechtel]

Holger, thank you for bringing up that issue, but my former problems with that have already been solved when you brought up that sheet of paper with the organigram of the whole Chemnitz institute on it.

I think, all indications do indeed speak for the hypothesis, that the "Sokol" project was a Russian initiative. Of course it was logical to them to build up on the experience of Auto Union´s R&D department. On the other hand they had direct control only over the Eisenach / BMW factory, but not over the Auto Union works any more. So "borrowing" a part of the former Auto Union R&D department as the new development center for Eisenach makes much sense to me and therefore I am not surprised to find the "BMW" logo on the design plans. You can regard this perhaps as an early occasion for outsourcing.

Have I summed this up correctly in your opinion?

If so, then the question of the rightful name for the car is not too problematic any more. What is usually chosen when you have a design bureau working for another manufacturer?

So I think Brun is quite right with "Awtowelo", but I would tend to avoid the "BMW" letters in this context.

[Holger Merten]

Quote

So I think Brun is quite right with "Awtowelo", but I would tend to avoid the "BMW" letters in this context.

Here I don't agree, if there was no chance to run this projekt under the succesfull name of AU, with BMW there was a chance to do some Eastern Germany motorsport. Perhaps this was the idea.

[Racer.Demon]

Probably very much off-topic, but over at F1 Rejects my eyes were suddenly glued to this Forti's rear wing...

[Holger Merten]

But it's just a testdrive....

[dmj]

Forti, Sokol and Shannon in same pic! Ouch! Seems like Goodwood grid if Kuwashima takes over Doug's place...

[anjakub]

Sokól - Polish helicopters.

[Racer.Demon]

Of course - I'd almost say unfortunately! - there is always a logical explanation...

[anjakub]

Sokol (Falcon) in the air - see: http://www.pzl.swidn...p_sokolopis.htm

[Brun]

This might very well become a record-lenght story on TNF. As it happens, new sources have emerged after we've finished the 8W-summary of this thread. There'll be several amendments to the story and more interesting facts on the Sokols will be added. In a while, though, since a new trip to Chemnitz is needed...

Hope I'm not overdoing the Breaking News/Soon In This Theater/Stay Tuned-style here?

Anyway, in short: there'll be more.

[Brun]

BTW, to add something here: it's now permitted to scrape the Auto Union-rings from the Donington car. Holger just found out that there is not a single pre-war AU part on it...

And to add more to the picture Racer.Demon posted earlier: Sokol also is a German kitchen factory (www.sokol.de)

[Holger Merten]

Yes, today I was talking to a man, who was involved into the construction of the car, he told me"everything was brandnew", sure with the know how of the former employees of the AU r&d dept. but without any AU-parts.

Will come back later. And the car was construted in 1950/51, more on 8W, read the Sokol article and find out more.

[anjakub]

Hello guys,
It's not a joke. On the rear wing of Forti formula cars was advertising of Polish helikopters Sokól.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by anjakub
Hello guys,
It's not a joke. On the rear wing of Forti formula cars was advertising of Polish helikopters Sokól.

They know that Andrzej. Just a bit of Dutch humour: those two are like that in real life too, especially after a couple of beers

[Brun]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


They know that Andrzej. Just a bit of Dutch humour: those two are like that in real life too, especially after a couple of beers

I deny that!

Talking about beers: I do miss all those pints at Bognor Regis though. Can't wait till it's Goodwood time again.

[Racer.Demon]

Hey, I don't need any beers to be like that!


BTW, a rundown on the latest Sokol developments here...

[Holger Merten]

Mattjis you should open 8w only for money

Thanks for the fast breaking news 2 hours after I was talking to the former mechanic in Zwickau. Fast as a Sokol.;)

[Vitesse2]

Errr ..... Doug ..... is it too late for Tom to ask for his money back?

[Racer.Demon]

By the time Holger and Jeroen are through with their investigation and have published their final article in C&SC (can some of our distinguished and influential forum members help out there?), Tom will be glad that his car is an Awtowelo 650... Makes for a much better story!

[Brun]

Wow, I've now been promoted to 'expert' on 8W! Cool

Mattijs's speed of reporting is admirable indeed. Somehow, I can't help but comparing it to a well-known news channel...

[Racer.Demon]

(Sometimes a smiley says more than a thousand words. And this from a copywriter.)

[Vitesse2]

To paraphrase the Duke of Wellington:

I don't know what that picture of Mattijs does for everyone else, but it scares the cr*p out of me!






And I've met him!

[Holger Merten]

Stop it, I can't help myself stop laughing.

Brun what did you with my CNN map????

[Racer.Demon]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I don't know what that picture of Mattijs does for everyone else, but it scares the cr*p out of me!

Yeah, the (intentional?) blur makes me look like a, erm, someone from the Gulf region who has bad intentions...

You shouldn't have said that, Rich - flashbacks to the times I was held to be one of the Maluku freedom-fighters that hijacked several trains in Holland to forward their cause. Or the many other times I got held up at customs...

[Doug Nye]

Holger - congratulations upon apparent culmination of a lovely piece of work.

I still stand by what I wrote about the car demonstrably demonstrating pre-war AU practice in component design etc. I'll pass your findings on to Tom and his son Kevin who runs Donington today re attribution of the car...

Its predecessors still presented a brave (deafening?) spectacle at Donington '38....



(Photo: The GP Library)

While it grumbled around like a truffle pig there in the '80s...



(Photo: Via The GP Library)

DCN

(Mattijs - feel free, old chap, but please credit as above???)

[Racer.Demon]

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I still stand by what I wrote about the car demonstrably demonstrating pre-war AU practice in component design etc.

That's because it's a fact...

And no wonder, as it was built by many of the same people. Holger's new findings simply underline the hypothesis that it shares virtually nothing with the Type E that is claimed to be. It does have several things in common with the D type (yet not a single part was actually taken over from it - and how could it, with all the pre-war cars taken to Russia!), so it's exactly what you say: it demonstrates the same design practice, but it's not the same design. You were right all along but apparently Tom Wheatcroft - only too happy with his acquisition, no doubt - let his emotions do the talking and "extrapolated" your conclusion to turn it into a car that it has never been. Having said that, I thank him for creating a car that does give us a tangible insight into what might have been. The car is still a stunning sight.

BTW, our ex-AU mechanic also worked on the Type E, so we might see an update on that story too...

And thanks for allowing me to use that lovely colour picture. Sources attributed as wished. Wish I could be in that seat...

[Doug Nye]

I've just read your story.

25 out of 10 ****************************

DCN

[Brun]

Cool picture, Mr. Nye. I agree with Mattijs: wish I could go for a quick spin around the block in that thing

One must say that the little beast has become part of a wonderful thread...

[Brun]

Time to wake up an old thread again



Holger saw this picture first (credit where it is due). It's on a private website of some Norwegian Audi-nut who visited the Audi factories in the summer of 2001. Now, the car at front is beautiful, yet totally irrelevant to this thread. We want to know more about the thing in the back. I'm convinced it is the Donington car and asked Doug through private e-mail if he knew about an exchange, two years ago. No answer came perhaps my mail never arrived?

Anyhow, what do you guys think? Mind you, I was in Ingolstadt myself in september 2001 and the Donington car was not there. Checked all my own pictures and those of friends who were with me. Nothing.

So, who can tell us if the Donington car left Donington for a visit to Ingolstadt in 2001? Or is this picture taken somewhere else?

[Holger Merten]

Brun, although I never had the time to visit the museum in Ingolstadt, the interior looks like the Museummobile.

On the other hand, I had the idea, that this picture could be taken in the UK. The Avus was in Goodwood with many other silverarrows and cars from the AU collection to celebrate Audi's birthday in 1999. May there were connections between Donnington and Ingolstadt for another exhibition in the UK?

We know, that Audi is interested in the second car of the Typ 650, which perhaps exists in Dresden/Germany.

[Doug Nye]

Quote

Originally posted by Brun
Time to wake up an old thread again

[IMG] ...Doug...tell us if the Donington car left Donington for a visit to Ingolstadt in 2001?

Sorry for missing the question - I believe there was an exchange with Audi, but cannot confirm it at the moment. I was not involved in the matter. This was around the time of that rather pathetic Audi factory AU demo at VSCC Donington when the confident driver of the second car was reputedly junior to the over-timid driver of the leading car, and therefore - as a well brought-up chap - would not overtake him to show off at least one car blaring round with its engine 'on the cam' and running clean.

That day's extremely disappointing showing did not do Audi a great deal of good here in the UK....a promotional disaster and an outstanding PR opportunity totally wasted.

Incidentally, while on AU matters, you might be intersted to hear that the Scottish 'P-Wagen' has been offered recently in part exchange for a relatively modest Rolls-Royce, and most recently for a 1920s 3-litre Bentley. The latter has a market value around £90,000...so the perceived value of the 'AU' continues to diminish...a curious affair, isn't it?

DCN

[Holger Merten]

Doug, perhaps the right idea, but I never found the Avus participating for this exchange with Audi.

From the orginal Audi press release of 2001:"
In addition to these magnificent Auto Union models, Audi Tradition will be showing eight other historic racing cars and five racing motorcycles, impressively representing Audi’s motor sport tradition: the supercharged NSU 6/60 (1926), the NSU/Wankel-engined Racing Spider (1964), the Audi quattro S1 (1985), the Audi 90 quattro IMSA GTO (1989), the Audi V8 DTM (1992), the Audi A4 quattro STW (1996), the Audi R8R (1999), the Audi R8 (2000), the DKW 350 RM (1953/54), the DKW SS 250 (1939), the NSU Rennmax Type Dolphin (1953), the NSU Rennmax ”Blue Whale” (1954) and the Rennfox Tourist Trophy (1953). The DKW SS 500 racing car (1929) will also be on show."

[Brun]

Quote

Originally posted by Holger Merten
Doug, perhaps the right idea, but I never found the Avus participating for this exchange with Audi.

Well, if Donington shipped the Sokol to Ingolstadt, it's very plausible that it stood next to the Avus in the Museum. This Avus belongs to those cars which are on display there.

[Peter Morley]

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye


Incidentally, while on AU matters, you might be intersted to hear that the Scottish 'P-Wagen' has been offered recently in part exchange for a relatively modest Rolls-Royce, and most recently for a 1920s 3-litre Bentley. The latter has a market value around £90,000...so the perceived value of the 'AU' continues to diminish...a curious affair, isn't it?

DCN

Doug

Do you know how to contact the vendor? (e.g. I know someone who would be tempted (like myself but with funds!))

What are your thoughts on the origin (or should I say originality) of these pieces?
It seems unlikely that someone would go to the trouble of making something as complex as a V-16 engine etc from nothing?????

[Brun]

Quote

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Incidentally, while on AU matters, you might be intersted to hear that the Scottish 'P-Wagen' has been offered recently in part exchange for a relatively modest Rolls-Royce, and most recently for a 1920s 3-litre Bentley. The latter has a market value around £90,000...so the perceived value of the 'AU' continues to diminish...a curious affair, isn't it?

DCN

Very curious. It's curious that he still has it and curious that the selling price drops and drops...

Let's put it this way. If the darn thing were real, people and companies from all over the world would've thrown money at him for the past 3 years, begging him to sell it to them. The guy could have made millionaire by now.

I wonder how long we'll have to wait before he accepts a rundown 1987 Ford Escort as payment?

Peter: this car was discussed in the P-Wagen thread some time ago. All participants agreed that the car is a fake.

[Doug Nye]

Quote

Originally posted by Brun
...this car was discussed in the P-Wagen thread some time ago. All participants agreed that the car is a fake....

....in my case being 99% confident that the car CANNOT be anything but, yet remaining really troubled by that intriguing, irritating, missing 1%.

I would not be surprised if SOME minor components involved in this very strange story came from Saxony, originated there either pre- or post-war (see DAMW, Sokol etc).

Most unlikely - I am sure - but I for one would not be prepared to hang a man on the evidence available to us...

DCN