37 replies to this topic

[engin]

good day

whenever this name mentioned he is always remembered as a three times champion of f1
he was fast and knows how to gather the titles no doubt about it but unfortunately or strangly all his championships were marked with a question mark

1981 it was believed that brabham used illegal chassis argentina 81 was quite obviouse but no actin been taken.

1983 some rumours said that his bmw was using an illegal fuel .

1987 he was clearly outdone by his team mate mansell
but in 87 monza he used a system which gave him an advantage over mansell and mansell simply didnt have that system not this only he was lucky that mansell was injured in and didnt take part in the last two races .

he was fast and very good no question and he had his races were did beat everybody but his titles still rais a question about how great or good he was .

thanx.

[Psychoman]

Engin, yer starting to sound like Frans

------------------
"Hey there, all you middle men
Throw away your fancy clothes
And while you're out there sittin' on a fence
So get off your ass and come down here
'Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
To me it makes good, good sense"
-Brian Johnson

[f li]

Hey guys,

Here we try to show that Brutus was wrong,

"That the good that men do lives after them,
and the bad is oft interred with their bones."

[Ray Bell]

These things might be true, but look at Stirling Moss - undeniably better than Hawthorn, Brabham and P. Hill...

The record doesn't always reflect justly on the driver.. one of the vagaries that gives the sport its atmosphere.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Duane]

Piquet was a great development driver, he liked to have things his way. 1986-87 must have been difficult, as he would be responsible for car developments and good setups, while Mansell would just borrow Piquet's stuff. Piquet, of course, was always interested in doing the least possible to win; while Mansell was only interested in beating Piquet and telling the world how hard his life was!

[CVAndrw]

Oh, c’mon now. By your criteria, how many world championships were “marked with a question mark”? Want to go back to Collins “gifting” one to Fangio (let’s just agree not to get into any of the Senna/Prost Schumacher/Hill melodrama, OK?) The championship goes to the driver who scores the most points under the system in place at the time. It’s not a popularity contest or beauty pageant.

But so far as Piquet’s three titles:

1981- damn right there was a lot of cheating and rule-bending going on by the non-turbos in an effort to keep up. Williams cheated just as much as Brabham- only Brabham cheated better and smarter. The playing field was still level!

1983- the source of those rumors about illegal BASF rocket fuel was, of course, Renault, who went so far as to swipe a sample and sneak it to the FIA- who exhaustively tested it and determined that by every possible interpretation of their admittedly tortuous fuel formula, BMW’s gas was entirely legal. Motivation for Renault’s sniveling was their embarrassment at stopping development mid-season in favor of reliability, then going so far as to plaster France with “Alain Prost World Champion” billboards somewhat prematurely. Sorry, but if ever a team got whipped fair and square, it was Renault and Prost by Brabham, BMW and Piquet in 1983.

1987- absolutely, Nelson had lost a bit of speed in relation to Mansell, particularly after his near-fatal accident at Tamburello. What was he supposed to do, retire because he’d lost a couple of tenths since 1984, when both Niki Lauda and Rob Walker proclaimed him the fastest and best in the world? Instead, he bunkered down, got tough, shouldered the burden of virtually all the Williams testing, and relentlessly kept the pressure on his faster teammate. At Suzuka there was absolutely no reason for Mansell to go out for one more balls-out lap to safeguard a pole that was already his, but Nelson had him so spooked and paranoid that Nigel flew off the road, compressed his spine, threw away two victories that were probably his for the taking, and handed Nelson the Championship on a silver tray. Sorry again, but it’s one of the oldest clichés in racing that if you can’t beat ‘em with your right foot, sometimes you can beat ‘em with your head. And nobody was ever better at that than Nelson.

And when all is said and done, who’s got three championships and who’s got one (courtesy of a car “a monkey could win in”- for which, by the way, Piquet did ALL the initial R & D work five years previously), and who, by all accounts, is the happier man, at peace with himself and his place in history?

[f li]

I can't remember the exact quote or where I read it but it goes somewhat like this:

"Sure they were cheating, everyone knew it - but you didn't go tattling on a mate!" - it was in reference to a lesser team cheating.

I think it is as unfair to credit say J. Clark with those 25 wins (he didn't win them on foot!) as it is to blame N.P. for the cheating. Nelson was probably not a lawyer and secondly he probably never read the FIA regulations. (I can not see any objection to the perception that "Team X" cheated, however!)

Any one remember Penske Zerex Special? And how that sly "devil" Roger had the car already inspected and approved before its first outing! And you wonder why he wins!

[Don Capps]

Piquet, as pointed out, got the job done. I was always a bit fascinated by him since he used to emerge from the car on the verge of collapse and there was Rosberg or Lauda looking as if they could handle 500k's no sweat...

As to the Zerex Special, recall that the car was deemed Good-To-Go before it turned its first lap in anger. The USAC scrutineers looked at the book, looked at the car, looked at the book, and slapped a sticker on it that read, "APPROVED." The SCCA had some heartburn with the car and in 1963 and 1964 it was a tad different from its 1962 configuration.

Which goes back to the point that F1 without Gordon Murray is a bit bland, isn't it? While Gordo used to send blood pressures into orbit like a Saturn booster, he definitely did keep things Interesting. Perhaps due to trying too hard to head off guys like Gordo, the rules are like they are. Although it was a trifle ugly (like saying WW2 was violent), it was fun to see how poorly written rules were ripped apart by Gordo and Chapman (I think the 88 was 'legal' technically even while grossly at odds with the 'spirit' of the rules).

And Piquet at least seemed to truly Enjoy racing, which more than can be said for many over the past several decades (Lauda doesn't count - Lauda is Lauda and anyone who can come back from the Brink like he did in 1976 can do whatever and say whatever he pleases in my book).

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[f li]

Don,

And when Hall put those bloody fans in the Chapparal, they too were already inspected and approved! Seems that Jim and Roger frequently worked hand in hand!

[ghinzani]

Lole deserved it more in 81, Prost in 83 (thanks to the BASF fuel) and Mainsail more in 87. I rate Piquet no higher than Patrese, Giacomelli or Cheever.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by ghinzani


Lole deserved it more in 81...

Not on the performance I witnessed first-hand at Vegas he didn't matey!

[canon1753]

Nelson's an interesting one isn't he? Fast, both on and off track (by this I mean he tried all of the psychological warfare bits). Could be a clown, maybe even a rude clown. Pretty darn fast though, especially on his day. Always at his best when he knew something someone else didn't. Got under the skin of Mansell, Lole (I guess) and a few other. Didn't get under the skin of Jonesy and Senna (I don't think). Friends with and learned a lot from Niki Lauda.

Like Schumacher, everyone has an opinion about Nelson, whether brilliant or not so brilliant.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by canon1753

Didn't get under the skin of Jonesy and Senna (I don't think)

Vis Jones, I think you need to get hold of reviews covering the 1980 & 1981 seasons - it was war! They sort of made-up at the final race of '81, but [at the time] that was Jones' swansong so the rivalry didn't need to continue.

He was viciously anti-Senna and vetoed him signing for Brabham in '84. I suspect that his attitude was influenced by their very different backgrounds and upbringing back home...

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Twin Window

He was viciously anti-Senna and vetoed him signing for Brabham in '84. I suspect that his attitude was influenced by their very different backgrounds and upbringing back home...

But that's nothing Senna didn't do a couple of years later - although I believe he also sent Derek Warwick a Christmas card.;)

The kind of ego that wants a team built entirely around himself is always going to resist a driver who's a threat. Or in the case of Senna, resist a driver who's likely to take enough of the team's effort away from him - Delboy was fast but really, never quite in Senna's league...

[giacomo]

Pretty hard to belittle no less than three titles.

One might be a fluke. Two - rather not. Three - impossible.
BTW, he was close in 1980 and 1986 as well. Not many drivers landed five serious title bids.

[ensign14]

No question Mansell deserved it more in '87, twice the number of wins and but for a wheel nut and a real nut it would have been quadruple. '83 was dubious because of the fuel but Prost did himself no favours. '81...surely Lafitte deserved it more than both Carlos and Nelson? '80 and '82 were probably better Nelson years...

[giacomo]

Laffite deserved the 81 title more than Piquet and Reutemann? Why not Jones or Prost, or even Villeneuve?

I tend to think that the guy with the most points deserves the title.

[ensign14]

I don't think the Ligier was anything like as good a car as the Williams or Brabham. Plus I like Jacques, he seems one of the good guys.

Villeneuve, whilst sublime at times, was also an idiot - I can think of 2 needless spins that year that cost him dearly. How much of that was down to the car inadequacies is another question.

If the chap who scores most points deserves to be champion, who deserved the 1964 crown? Or 1988?

[giacomo]

Originally posted by ensign14

If the chap who scores most points deserves to be champion, who deserved the 1964 crown? Or 1988?

I didn't watch 1964, but Senna definitely deserved to win 1988.

Declaring Piquet for an undeserving champion in 1981 and 1983 because of some diffuse cheating rumours isn't very convincing, and concerning Mansell having bad luck in 1987: Also Piquet had bad luck that year: The Imola accident that blunted his pace edge of course, but also some DNFs, especially the one in Spa in the lead.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by giacomo
I didn't watch 1964, but Senna definitely deserved to win 1988.

But Prost scored more points.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by ensign14

But Prost scored more points.

Not in the eleven counting races, as you know very well. And your point being...?

[David McKinney]

His point clearly being a response to your own:

Originally posted by giacomo
I tend to think that the guy with the most points deserves the title.

[giacomo]

Senna being a deserved 88 champion isn't in disagreement with my statement, as he scored more points than Prost did, according to the 88 rules.

I rate this attempt to undermine my standards as a bit inept and childish, especially coming from a guy who rates Laffite as the deserving 81 champion because he likes him as "one of the good guys".

[Twin Window]

Stay calm - everyone is entitled to their opinions...

[ensign14]

I don't think points are the best way to determine the champ. After all, how do you decide that a 5th place is worth two 6ths for some period of F1 history, but now a 5th is worth two 7ths?

But I stand by what I said about Jacques in 1981. The Ligier was not the greatest car out there. Look how many points his team-mates scored that year.

[giacomo]

Look how many points Piquets teammate scored in 1981.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by ensign14
I don't think points are the best way to determine the champ. After all, how do you decide that a 5th place is worth two 6ths for some period of F1 history, but now a 5th is worth two 7ths?

I don't decide that; the rulemakers do.

I accept their decision, you don't. No problem for me.

[fines]

Originally posted by giacomo
Look how many points Piquets teammate scored in 1981.

Good point!

Ensign? ENSIGN??? I CAN'T HEAR U!

[ensign14]

Piquet's team-mate was Hector Rebaque. He was DNPQing in a car that was winning races. Whereas Lafitte's team-mates were Grand Prix winners.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by ensign14
Piquet's team-mate was Hector Rebaque. He was DNPQing in a car that was winning races. Whereas Lafitte's team-mates were Grand Prix winners.

This is getting lamer and lamer.

There is nothing that suggests that Jarier, Jabouille and Tambay in their 1981 form were any better than Rebaque.

[ensign14]

Other than Jabouille had won 2 Grands Prix, Jarier had had podia in a Tyrrell, and Tambay had nearly done so for Ensign, whereas Rebaque scored 1 point in a World Championship winning car, no. The best you could say was that Jabouille came back too soon after a leg break.

And the fact that not a single F1 team ever gave Rebaque a drive. Ever. He could only ever buy them with lots of lovely Mexican money.

[giacomo]

Jabouille: started the 81 season on crutches on his way out of F1 after his horrible Montreal shunt
Jarier: subbed twice in a hurry for the injured Jabouille; hadn't done anything remarkable since his two 78 Lotus races
Tambay: underperformed so badly in 79 that he was out of F1 in 80; repeated that achievment in 81


Considering this cicumstances I have to admit that your teammate argument is really overwhelming: Laffite dominated some real superstar teammates on their peak in 81.
And we should not forget that you like him, and that he's one of the good guys.

He's the one and only deserving 81 WDC. I rest my case.

[ensign14]

Thanks to points gained in a car that was so illegal even the sainted Rebaque could get up to 2nd place with it.

But we worship the Great God Points. Coulthard is better than Clark.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by ensign14

But we worship the Great God Points. Coulthard is better than Clark.

If you say so.

[stevewf1]

Originally posted by ensign14
But we worship the Great God Points. Coulthard is better than Clark.

Not if you look at it in terms of points/start... Clark - 3.8, Coulthard - 2.2.

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by giacomo
Laffite deserved the 81 title more than Piquet and Reutemann? Why not Jones or Prost, or even Villeneuve?

I tend to think that the guy with the most points deserves the title.

1981 was the year that I first got interested in the sport, from Monaco onwards. My perception at the time was that Prost and Jones were the pace-setters, and Reutemann and Piquet regularly picked up the pieces. Perhaps the statistics do not support this theory, but in any event it was a very unstable and traumatic year, with the arguments over skirts, the general political intrigue, and the influence of the turbos.

Over the course of the season, nobody really displayed true consistency, except Lole and Nelson. Riccardo Patrese in the Arrows was one of the front-runners for the first quarter of the season! Jones made a few mistakes and had some bad luck, and the Renaults were fast but fragile, as were the Ferraris. Laffite finished the season strongly, and Reutemann couldn't handle the pressure in Vegas.

I remember thinking when Piquet clinched the title, "where did he suddenly come from?". However, he was there or thereabouts in the standings for most of the season. Perhaps not the most inspiring way to win the championship, but I would say at least as deserving as anyone else that year.

[B Squared]

photo: B2 Design

My apologies if I'm interrupting the debate too badly. I have new computer equipment, and have been going thru some photos. This one is Piquet @ Montreal 1980. He sat on pole in this Brabham BT49/9 Cosworth. Retired while leading with engine failure on lap 24.

Thanks, Brian

[COUGAR508]

A nice photo!

It is often forgotten that Piquet almost won the title in 1980. He got caught up in the first-corner pile-up at Montreal, and had to switch to the spare car for the re-start. Did his race car have a stronger engine? Pironi was then penalised for a jumped-start, so Nelson was in effect leading comfortably until his engine failed. This all left Jones to win the race and the championship. Piquet had plenty of ill-luck in his career as well...