40 replies to this topic

[Rich]

Hi all

The more I play 'Grand Prix Legends', the more respect I gain for the drivers of that era (late 60's). Seeing the proximity of extremely solid objects (the bridge before the Vialone at Monza, the stone wall after Malmedy at Spa and the house porches at Masta), one realises just how precarious the safety situation was.

Airborne machinery was seemingly another hazard of pre-wing days, and it's particularly noticeable at places like Nurburgring. In the sim, it's quite possible to launch the car like a Jumbo off those ramped surfaces with few ill effects, but I somehow doubt the real cars were capable of such antics. For one thing, the rev spike was sure to blow the engine, and for another it must have been awfully difficult to control the car on touch-down. I know F1 cars did occasionally get airborne, but I'd like to know exactly by how much? Did anybody here attend races at the old Nurburgring and if so, what sort of heights did the cars achieve? Anything more than a couple of millimetres, and I'll be mighty impressed.

[Felix Muelas]

I am not very good in calculations, but the simple basic observation of pictures taken from the side leads me to conclude that we are not talking millimeters here !
On Rainers W. Schlegelmich´s Grand Prix Fascination Formula One you can find a couple of those pics (pages 24-25 for 1969) where my understanding is that we might be talking about a good 10 inches...
Maybe someone would be kind enough as to post a pair of those...

Regards
Felix Muelas
The 8W Team

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[Rich]

Holy Moly, I can't think what that did to the suspension lap after lap! Thanks for the info Felix, though unfortunately I don't have the book. Any idea where those pic's were taken? Flugplatz?

[Leif Snellman]

Flugplats was one such place but I think the pictures Felix are talking about are taken at Brünnchen, a classic "jumping place". Another spectacular place was Pflanzgarten
where the track dropped so sharply that the
cars left the ground in the curve. I think it is shown in the 1973? season video.

[Eric McLoughlin]

If you get a chance to see the film "Ten Days in Summer" (the story of the Ford Cosworth DFV's first season), you will see one clip of Jim Clark getting airborne in the Lotus 49 at the Nurburgring. I estimate he is at least three feet into the air. The landing is spectacular to say the least. The whole car crashes down on one side. Whilst airborne, the suspension droops alarmingly. Schlegelmilch's other book, "Formula One - Portraits of the 60's" has even more pictures of flying GP cars. To be honest, I expect that even modern F1 machinery would fly on the Nurburgring's humps and dips.

I wonder how many of the current generation of Grand Prix drivers would be willing to find out? Over to you Schumi!

[Rich]

Three feet?! Crikey, they must have had the car's ride height up on stilts, considering that soft setups were generally preferred at the Ring.

[Eric McLoughlin]

I'm not kidding. Colin McRae would be proud of it. Come to think of it, he's Scottish too. It must come from practising highland flings and tossing the caber.

[Ray Bell]

Winkelhock went much higher, and he had wings!
Three feet would be about right for a good take-off at the Flugpatz, the most commonly photographed spot.

[Art]

Rich.

At the old Nurburgring it depended just how and where you wanted to fly. Some drivers left the track at 100 mph went over the hill through the forest and they picked the pieces up and notified there family. If F1 was held there today the mortality rate would be awful. Jackie Stewart left the track tore a farmers out building down and the farmer had to get tools to get Stewart out of the car. Flying was the easy part hitting things before you got stoped was the problem.

[Rich]

Thanks for your input all. The original Nurburgring is a fascinating circuit and I'm loving getting to grips with it in GPL. However, if I'm only jumping about eighteen inches at Flugplatz, then maybe I'm wimping out and should tap off much later. The jump itself is a no-brainer, it's the squealing tyres and jolting suspension when you land that takes some controlling!

I believe they levelled off some of the 'launching ramps' during the 70's in an effort to make the circuit safer. But I guess it was just too long. Setting up medical points so that every part of the circuit had one nearby would take an army of medics and ambulances.

Incidentally, the GPL folks have just released a 60's-style Osterreichring for the game, and what a magnificent place it is. I find it a lot like Mexico - totally schizophrenic. The first half is all fast and easy sweeps, the second half a nightmare of slippery off-camber corners with tricky entrances and even trickier exits. Great fun! Hoping for le Mans next...

[Racer.Demon]

Felix: at your request!

Here's Piers Courage, in his 1969 Williams Brabham, at the aptly-named Flugplatz ('Airfield'):



Or Brambilla at Brünnchen (1975):



Gurney at Flugplatz (1966):



Elford, in his private McLaren M7A, again at Flugplatz (1969):



And finally, JYS at Flugplatz in his 1966 BRM:



As you can see, some flew higher than others...

Cheers,
R.D


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[Ursus]

I wonder who parked his car next to the track? . Art, didn't that incident happen at Spa?



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Ursus
Trust me, send money.

[Keir]

Rich,
As a GPL fan myself, their physics engine
can sometimes get over enthusiastic. But
you won't find a more realistic racing game out there. GPL is a "Bloody Marvel"

Racer Demon,
Great Photos!!!

"It's not the flying that's the hard part, it's the landing"

[Igor DC]

Hey,

I read this story in a Jacky Ickx biography.

Some photographers hat set up their cameras at Kesselchen, the climb up to the Karussell.

I know Flugplatz is more famous, but from what I read, this place was also a place for some hot pictures!

They photographers reported that the cars would lift off.. fly across the road, and land just before the grass started, and continued.. some drivers braked.. Jacky Ickx in his F2 car did not even lift the the throttle.. flew across the road, 2 wheels on the grass, and continued..

They also say they saw the fear in the eyes of Denny Hulme there.. I bet he nearly overshot the corner..

I play GPL too, but I try to keep jumping to a minimum

Igor.

[Falcadore]

Rich:
Don't expect to much from a Le Mans patch for GPL. The French Grand Prix did indeed visit Le Sarthe in 1967, but it wasn't the full 24 Hour layout, but the much smaller 'Bugatti' layout which is centred around the grand stands at Dunlop.

The Bugatti track turns right before the Esses the switches back three times, wiggles a little and rejoins the 24 Hour circuit at Ford. No Mulsanne, no Maison Blanche, no Indianapolis, no Arnage, no Tetre-Rouge. Formula One has never raced down the Mulsanne, and while there's some curiosity there, there isn't that much.

The Bugatti circuit is clearly visible behind the main stands in the early helicopter shots of the film 'Le Mans'.

[SteveB2]

Rich,

This picture was on the timeline feature on the Atlas Main page. Hulme at Nurburgring in '67. My first time trying to pos a pic, so bear with me if it doesn't work. What amazes me is that it looks like Hulme is making a left turn while 6-8 inches in the air. (The wheels are at different perspectives and his right hand appears to be on top of the steering wheel). Amazing.



[This message has been edited by SteveB2 (edited 02-10-2000).]

[This message has been edited by SteveB2 (edited 02-10-2000).]

[SteveB2]

Why did that attempt at image insertion do that?

[Jonathan]

SteveB2

You inadvertantly inserted an unwanted space between the "]" and the URL. no biggie.

[SteveB2]

Cool. Thanks Jonathan.

[John Nelson]

Add me to the list of Grand Prix Legends fanatics who's logged some flight time at the Ring. There are great photos of Clark in '67 (from Oliver's book "Lotus 49")and Stewart in '66 (from Schlegelmilch's "Formula I: Portraits of the 60's")getting some impressive height there, but I guess you can't post them here unless they have a URL to link to them. I find I have a lot of trouble surviving my brief airborne excursions in GPL unscathed, all the more reason to have enormous respect for those drivers that actually did it.

[pinchevs]

Rich,
Where do you download the Osterreichring ?

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[Ian McKean]

Come on fellas,

Judging by the pictures posted by Racer.Demon and SteveB2, some of you must be fishermen.

Actually, I have a photo of an Auto Union at Donnington (I think) which is further in the air than any on this thread. How does one post a picture?

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[pinchevs]

Rich,
Nevermind, I've got it, but thanks anyway!

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[pinchevs]

Shock, yesterday I watched the Duke video of the 1983 World Sportscar Championship at the Nurburgring. They
had a camera at Flugplatz and the 956s and Lancias were sucked to the track and did not leave the
ground. They were so stiff that they would not go into the Karussel but instead they drove around
above the banking. They did use the banking during qualifying.


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[This message has been edited by pinchevs (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Rich]

pinchevs, I believe Flugplatz and some of the other notorious launching ramps were levelled off during the early 70's in an attempt to make the track safer.

[pinchevs]

Well Rich, It couldn't have been before 1975 as the above picture of Brambilla proves. D. Bell in the video refers to modifications that were made to the track but says that the real difference was because of the ground effect the Group C cars were using.

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[Ray Bell]

Those weak old Porsches - probably reckoned that they could fix them after a lap or two of practice, but not during the race!

[Dino]

I came across another 'flyer' although not unscratched, by Jochen Rindt, GP of Spain 1969.




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Greetz,
Dino

Ecurie Historique d'Avantgarde

The Edge ... where the masses spectate, a chosen few compete and only one defines!


[This message has been edited by Dino (edited 02-25-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

This flight, and the one of team mate Hill in the same race, spelled the end of high wings. Next race they were out. Both cars crashed when the wings collapsed.

[Eric McLoughlin]

Even though the Lotus crashes at Barcelona are famous because they led to the ban on tall wings, that's the firts time I've seen a photo of one of the actual accidents. Another couple of inches higher and I think he would have vaulted the barrier, as Stommelen did six years later.

[Ray Bell]

Funny you should say that, Eric, I recall seeing pics of the crashes. I'm sure I saw one of G Hill upside down, in fact.
Don't ask me where....

[Allan]

Perhaps this question should include "How high.......and what did they do whilst they were up there?"

Well as we all know it was `defance de fume'`espiecialy in the Gasworks Tunnel so what else is there?

May I direct your attention to December `99 issue of `Thoroughbred & Classic Cars`an article by Eoin Young - interview with Alan McCall,(Jim Clark`s mechanic),where it is claimed that Clark used his body to turn the car whilst in mid-air! Pre safety harness I should imagine.

Are there any other reports of this type of driver activity?

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Allan Nash

[desmo]

"Air Hakkinnen" Adelaide '93:


I think Mika takes the prize!

[Marcel Schot]

Apart from Mercedes scoring an unofficial world record highjumping for cars, Derek Daly's Monaco 1980 flight has to be mentioned.



Ofcourse Daly had outside asistance...

[C F Eick]

Another nice thread!

When talking of airborne cars, we must not forget rally cars! This is from the 1999 Portuguese WC rally, note the shadow on the road, this car is HIGH!

[C F Eick]

This guy is in for a hard landing:

[Gil Bouffard]

It is a photographic illusion. I went to Pflanzgarten many times with friends and I went over Pflanzgarten at high speed. It sorta goes like Whump! It lasts micro seconds.

However, if you get down low enough and set a good fast shutter speed on your camera and select high on your motor drive....The result is: Jackie Stewart in the BRM suspended in mid air.

You can do the same thing at Sears Point in California where the cars bounce off the berm at turn three. It you watch it on TV, it's just ba-bump! if a photographer take a shot at the exact same moment, you can read the signage at the bottom of the hill underneath the car.

Hate to burst a bubble, but that's the way it is..

Gil Bouffard

[axeman]

Air Hakkinen is not too bad but Barrichello at Imola 94 has to take the cake.

A couple of years ago I read an interview with Phil Hill about his 1961 season and in particular driving at the 'Ring where he had pole and fastest lap that year. He said the trick was not the take off but the landing. The key was was to land the car just right so that it was immediately settled (NOT like Denny in the picture above!). This meant that position on the track and speed was all important so that you landed back wheels first (but only just)and were already pointing in the right direction so that you just floored it.

He said it took him a long while to learn this and was complicated by the track being so long that he couldn't remember all the signal points.

Is there a bridge after Kesselchen? I remember the bit about it being possible to put wheels in the grass. If this is the right spot then Phil said during the race he got completely out of shape going over the jump (because he didn't remember where he was on the track), got wheels on the grass and was heading straight for the barrier on the bridge. He floored it, closed his eyes, got over the bridge and set the fastest lap!

[Russ_Hodgson]

Some one above mentioned Jim Clark using his body to turn the car while in mid-air. In GPL you can rotate the car in mid air with the engine. At the ring (the best place for flight practice) when your in mid-air adjusting the revs of the engine will cause the car to rotate to the left or right around the axis of the car. This can be useful if you get a slightly imperfect take-off. Also tapping the brakes a hair before taking off will point the nose down for you and make the front wheels land first. Keeping your foot on the gas will make the car land at a much more flat angle.

-Russ

[SteveB2]

Gil,

You didn't say when you drove the 'ring, but I'm pretty sure that when they renovated the track they flattened out some of the jumps. See the "how many corners..." thread. It probably mentions the date of the renovation. Early 70's, I thought.

S.

[Gil Bouffard]

Steve, My first flights around the Nurburgring were in 1961 and again in 1962.

Back then, there was no Armco and it was slightly scary. No, really scary!

I also went around the Ring in a Formula Ford 1600 in 1980. Bumps were still there but only just. I am no Stirling Moss, but I did get around in a little over nine minutes.

Gil