47 replies to this topic

[Don Capps]

Anybody else here a big banger sports car fan?

I really loved the Chaparral cars in the mid-1960's when they were on the Game. I still get glassy-eyed thinking about Lola T70's, Flower Power McLarens, the Genies, and all the other wonderful big banger cars in the US pro series & Can-Am.

My favorite Can-Am race was the initial race at Road Atlanta where it seemed nobody wanted to win -- Denny Hulme, Peter Gethin (both in Gulf McLarens), Pete Revson (L&M Lola T160-something), Pedro Rodriguez (in a Castrol BRM-Chevrolet) all had a shot at it, but in the end the winner was Tony Dean in his (white) Porsche 908!!! He was simply stunned -- just like everyone else. That was also the race where Vic Elford drove the Chaparral 2J Vaccuum Cleaner.

Great Stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[f li]

Are you talking about the days when racing was racing and not politics? ---

What about the alloy block Chevy's that Jim Hall got via Penske who represent ALCOA - Alloy copies of Chevy's big block engine?

And we can even say politely "J. Stewart sucked - he did drive the Vaccuum Cleaner!" If Jim Hall had debugged that beast completely before its unveiling --- well!

What bothers me though is banning innovation ultimately took the heart out of C. Chapman the 88 and J. Hall the 2j.

[cjs f1]

Don Capps,

Have you read Pete Lyons book "Can-Am"?

Probably one of the best books I ever read about motor racing, Lyons covers all the races, as well as writing about the events that spawned the series as well as complete results from every race in the back of the book. Excellent Photos.
And he writes in a style that is really entertaining.
I highly recommend it to any one interested in the history of this fantastic series.

[Keith Steele]

As some may know I fancy myself a collector of those things small. I saw a few Can-Am races in Brainerd when I was young. A couple years ago I came across this six part article on Can-Am cars and some of the models available. I enjoyed it as it gives a quick summary of some of the cars that competed. The article is a few years old but, well you be the judge. http://web-hou.iapc....smh/CANAM1.html Just go on to the next section at the bottom of each page.

[Don Capps]

Yeah,

I've got the book and about everything else I can find on the big bangers. Great book!

I've met Pete and he is even better in person! A real character. He used to do the GP reports for Autosport at one point in the early 1970's.

I went to as many Can-Am races as I could squeeze in back then. The turbo Panzers were really something, but some of the wonderfully daffy stuff that was used in the early & mid-1960's is great to mull over: about everything you can imagine crammed into the engine bays of Cooper Monacos and Lotus 19s (Monte Carlo was it trade moniker), the indigenous efforts to produce a US sports racer (Chaparral was one of many and the original was built by Troutman-Barnes who also helped on the Scarabs and the Kurtis-Kraft cars...), the engine guys like Traco (Travis-Coon), and on and on.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps




[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 11-19-1999).]

[Dennis David]

I just bought a used copy of that book plus The Magic of a Name by Harold Nockolds. I used to watch the Chaparrals battle the McLarens at Laguna Seca. BTW next years Historical races will feature Maserati.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Statesidefan]

I remember going to my first vintage race at Road Atlanta in 1984. I had watched Can Am on TV as a kid, but had never seen it live. I was stunned when the two orange McLarens entered crested the rise on the straight! I do not have the adjectives to describe the emotion of that moment. As silly as it sounds I almost broke into tears. I was hooked and have been ever since. Don, Dennis, I hope you can get down to Road Atlata for the historics in the spring of 2000.

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Dennis David]

Yes I'd love to. That's a beautiful course you have there.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

I always loved the big bangers! In fact, I've been to many more sports car races than Formula 1 races. I started with the USRRC at Mid Ohio, and also went to the Glen a number of times. Remember those awesome weekends with the 6 hour prototype race on Saturday, followed by the Can Am race on Sunday? Was that not ecstacy?

One thing I hope is that this forum is open to discussing endurance and sports car racing. Modern racing has become so compartmentalized. In the glory days, guys drove everything, and I think we should remember them all.



[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 11-21-1999).]

[Dennis David]

I'm totally open and I suspect that Don is also ;-)

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[FlagMan]

Must admit for an affection for the big bangers - in fact anything with 'more grunt than grip'.

Never saw the Can-Am cars in their heyday but have seen many of the cars in action as there is a thriving Historic Sports car scene here in the UK and Europe.

Several Mclaren M6 and M8 models in regular action, one or two Marches, the big L&M Lola and a whole host of T70's (I think there were about 9 or 10 at Coys this year).

From a slightly later era - but still one that I like - they are planning to run a series of races for Group C sports cars next year after a toe-in-the water at Donington in June this year. Hope it comes off and we get some of the Porche 956/962 cars back over from the US.

[Don Capps]

Bouncing around this morning and found this of the Cheetah, a really wild California machine!





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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Don Capps]

It is slow this morning so:

McKee Mk. 6 from 1966:


Dan Gurney in his Lola 70 at the first Can-Am race: St. Jovite, 1966


Vic Elford in the Chaparral 2J at Road Atlanta, 1970:



Peter Gethin in the McLaren M8D at Road Atlanta 1970:


Peter Revson in the Lola 220 at Road Atlanta 1970:


A Shadow from 1974:


Ferrari's Big Banger, the 612 of 1969:


Charlie Hayes in a McLaren Mk.1 at Nassau in I think 1966:


Mark Donohue in a Porsche Turbo Panzer, the 917K/30:



A Porsche 917K/10:


Just an idea of what they were like...


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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[FlagMan]

That Cheetah looks remarkably like the back end of one of the early Jem Marsh Marcos creations!

[Don Capps]

I will have to get a better picture of the Cheetah, it was pretty amazing. It had a big ol' Chevy crammed into it and could have been a contender if Bill Thomas had had the money to do some serious testing and development. Ah, Southern California, a hotbed of wonderful cars like this.



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Statesidefan]

Don.....You are the man!!!!! Do you have a picture of the Chaparral with the tall wing like the FIA car of Hill and Spence, but an open cockpit? (2-F???)

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Don Capps]

States,

But of course! I will hunt one up and post sometime today.



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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

[Yelnats]

Yeah Don, I saw the Cheeta race at Mosport and it was an impressive looking beast. It was a bit of a throw-back even then, with it's mid engine in an era where rear engines had been dominant for almost a decade. It's great to see the Panoz taking up with this technology and making a success of it!

[Yelnats]

Does anyone recall the Sadler Specials of the early/mid sixties? I watched them at Mosport in the big bore sportscar precursors to the CAN/AM series. They were painted white and featured a rumbling growling exhaust note from a big-block American engine in the back.

[Don Capps]

States,

Instead of:

Here is Phil Hill in a 2E at the 1966 Laguna Seca Can Am, which was the only victory for Chaparral in the series!

Here is Jim Hall in the 2G at Riverside in 1967:



Yelnats, I now I have few pix of the Sadlers somewhere and will see what I can do.

Ditto on the Cheetah...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps



[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 11-27-1999).]

[Statesidefan]

Don,

Those pictures by Keyser take me back about 20 years ago when I had a book called "The Speed Merchants". Is this from that book? My copy was lost in college, but I heard it was to be available again soon.
Thanks for the pictures. The Lola 220 is a thing of beauty. Perhaps the Atlanta Historics will have some Can-Am cars this spring. The last race I went to was heavy on F-500 and GTP cars. Maybe the tha Can-Ams are getting too valuble to be herding around a track with God knows who out there with you...

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Uncle Davy]

I loved those Can-Am/Group 7 cars...the Lyons book is wonderful.
In the 60's, I had (correction...still have...UD is a bit of a pack rat) a Cox 1/24 scale Chaparral 2E slot car with a functioning wing (flat on acceleration, angled on decel), and a Cheetah, also by Cox...that was one odd car. Read an article about the old Cheetah recently, the source escapes me, and one of the things that sticks in my mind is that it lacked torsional rigidity, and that the front-end weight bias made for an evil-handling ride. Neat looking car, though.

[Jonathan]

My recollection is that the Cheetah had an extremely short wheelbase that made the car somewhat twichy...

I never actually saw a Can-Am race, although I think I recall them being referred to as the "Bruce & Denny show" as the McLarens were so successfull at one point.

[FlagMan]

Good news for anyone down under going to next years Aussie GP.

The ISC (International Supersports Cup) guys have just announced that they will be running as a support (3 races!) for the Australian GP next year with a field of about 25 cars from the Can-Am and pre-76 Group 6 eras - they hope to take at least 5 of the big banger Can-Am cars over from Europe and are hoping to also get some from the States and Autstalia.

Having seen many ISC races in the Uk over the last few years I can assure anyone thinking of going that they could easily outclass the GP itself for spectacle.

[Joe Fan]

While we are on the topic, I bet few F1 fans realize that the 1978 Brabham "fan car" wasn't a great technical innovation of F1 but was first used by Chaparral constructor/driver Jim Hall as early as 1970 on his Chaparral-Chevrolet J2 car in the Can-Am series.

Don, have you got a pic of this car by chance?

[cjs f1]

Statesidefan,

I think Robert Bentley Publishers has just released "The Speed Merchants' again. They are based in Cambridge Massachusetts.
You can find out more on their website www.rb.com
hope this helps

[Statesidefan]

Don,
Thanks for the pics.

cjs f-1.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I know what to ask Santa for this year!

Joe.
Look above at the the pictures of the 2-J. The original fan car.

Interesting thing I read: The technical regulations for the Can-Am series were only 1 page long. Mainly covering safety regs. I think there was a minimum engine displacement, but no max! Had to keep the slow pokes out I guess. You gotta love it!

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Joe Fan]

Statesidefan, thanks I didn't see it.

[Ian McKean]

Yelnats

I vaguely remember a Sadler Special coming over from the States to compete at the Prescott hillclimb near Cheltenham in about 1955. If I remember correctly it had a very very very short wheelbase. Was this special built by the same Sadler? Or maybe I am confused with something else.

Ian McKean

[Ray Bell]

I know that the little Climax-powered Tojiero Climax (1100cc) doesn't count with the big bangers, but one day it came out of a fast set of esses at Warwick Farm and headed for the Causeway, a tight two-part left with a bent braking area. The kind of corner you don't see today.
Coming up to lap it was Chris Amon in the P4 Can-Am car from 1967 and Frank Matich in the Repco 4.2 powered car similar to one he ran a couple of times in the States.
They went one each side, side by side, Matich to the inside with the left wheels in the grass, Amon to the outside with the right wheels in the grass, the Tojiero in the middle and me ready with the yellow flags in case it went wrong.
It didn't. But, apart from providing some great sights, the Can-Am type cars provided me with the most frightening moments of my race watching - when two lesser drivers were racing against each other ....

[Don Capps]

Ray,

As frightening as it seemed from the press box or from trackside at times when the big bangers and medium/bitty bangers got mixed together, I can only imagine what it was like from the flag stations!

WHOA, WHOA!!!! OMIGOD! NO, LEFT!!!!! LEFT!! NOOOOOOOOOOO!! Wot no wreck? OHHHHNOOOOOOOOO! Here comes another.....

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[FlagMan]

Don - add the following to your last comment

... Pass me my brown trousers!.....

[SteveB2]

Recently (within the last year) saw a film of Jim Hall in the 2E (2G?) somewhere. Watching the spring loaded wing move up and down throughout the lap, was unnerving. They just aren't supposed to do that.

[Ian McKean]

Since (I suspect) most of the contributors to this BB are American, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Scarabs. I thought they looked superb, but never saw one in real life. I saw technical descriptions in one or two imported magazines, maybe Road and Track. Can Don or anyone find a picture?

And what about Max Balchowsky's Ol' Yaller? I read about this special competing well against factory cars in races such as the Pan America, but don't know any technical details. Can anyone provide?

Ian

[Keith Sawatsky]

Ian,

Where the "Scarabs" you're talking about those heavily modified Datsun 240Z's with small block Chevy's?

[PDA]

KS - the Scarabs were built by Lance Reventlow in the mid/late fifties and were purpose built sports racing cars. He then went on to develop and build a GP car which ran in F1 in 1960.

DC - big bangers live!!! take a look at ALMS - 6 litre 8 to 12 cylinder engines and all the noise you could want. The Panoz really makes the earth tremble.

[Dennis David]

Brian Redman remarked upon testing the then new Porsche 917 at LeMans he wondered why they wanted him rather than their more established drivers. When he called top Porsche driver Jo Siffert he was informed that he was specially chosen to do the initial testing because they did not want to risk their stars! On the Mulsanne straight the car could do 250 mph but had the rather unnerving habit of meandering from side to side. He could only hope that when he reached the end of the straight that he was on the right side to make the corner.

Watching them run at Laguna Seca last year, especially the Gulf versions you had the feeling that you were watching ghosts from the past.



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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[f li]

Can't we push this back up where it belongs with those other sports car?

[buddyt]

Great photos Don, the one of the Shadow in 1974 reminds me that in 1970 it the AVS Shadow build by Trevor Harris. It had 10 inch front wheels and 12 inch rear wheels and a simi-automatic tranmission. Then they put this 7 liter chevrolet in the back. It looked like a go-kart with a V8 engine. I have no way to send photos so if anyone can send one to the Forum so the others may see it I would appreciate. Ford also build a monster Can-Am car nick named the Honker.

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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Art]

The Scarab & Old Yeller.

I saw Phill hill drive the Scarab at Palms Springs and Eric Hauser drive Old Yeller at Riverside. The Scarab was beautiful and Old Yeller was just Old Yeller.

Art NX3L

[Art]

Don Capps.

Thanks for the great pictures of the Turbo Panzer. I would of given up 10 years of my life to see it raced one time.

Art NX3L

[desmo]

This is the mid-engine version of which only one was built.



[This message has been edited by desmo (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Falcadore]

I'm just back from the GP, in the next day or so I hope to have some pics from the Supersport races to post. Of the cars present the was a McLaren M7, M8 and a March 717 that were the class of the field.

[luisfelipetrigo]

In the late 60s there was a very wealthy guy in Mexico who loved sports; he built the first baseball stadium and owned 50% (read one) of the professional baseball teams back then.
He also loved auto racing and joined a very enthusiast Jose Antonio Solana, who used to build and race cars to sponsor his son: a guy by the name of Moises Solana (http://www.xe1rcs.or...ana/moises.html).

I recall a number of the early Can-Am cars (McLaren MB6, Lola MKIII, maybe even a M8D)being driven by him in Mexico. It was really something since the competition had much lesser cars; this cars where usually part of the 'unlimited' class and he raced against open wheel cars, and other extremelly modied cars (mustangs, camaros, one-of-a-kind and even mini coopers).

It was really fun to see Moises in his Can-Am machine come ahead of every one then all other cars and the mini last at the end of the long straight; then, while Moise was at the end of the straight for the second time the mini was just comming into it, having passed all the other cars only to be passed again. It was not rare to have Moises lap the whole field once or twice.

Yes, those cars were great. I hope I can go to one of the 'vintage' races they put together here and there (not easy from Mexico)

One last comment. I recall assembling a Chaparral 2G (the one with the tall wing) in my late teen years that was one of the most beautiful models I have done (so far )



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Saludos
Luis Felipe


[This message has been edited by luisfelipetrigo (edited 03-15-2000).]

[Yohbi]

Don,

Thanks for the great pictures of my favorite race cars. It brings back sweet memories of Watkins Glen in the early 1970s. I'll never forget hearing the whirl of their trannies before you heard the exhaust.

The 6 hrs endurance support race was also very entertaining. I loved seeing the battle between the Ferrari 512s and the Porsche 917s. Also, the Alfas, Ferrai 312s, Porsche 910s in the 3 liter class. An interesting race within a race.

I really miss those weekends. Thanks again for the pics.

[Keir]

Yohbi,
Good to see another Glen fan out there!!!

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Nathan]

I love sport car racing. I love the fact that there were so many different kind of races way back when. It was like boxing, there wasnt just one champion. All sizes of engines had there own titles. Not like now though Its unfourtunate that the FIA has control of everything.

[Yohbi]

Keir,

I grew in Madison in Morris County. Has the "Port of Call" doing? It's snowing now in the Colorado Rockies.

I do miss those big block heavy Chevys. Boy, were they a sight to behold. Please, someone, bring them BACK!

[This message has been edited by Yohbi (edited 03-21-2000).]