I am not sure but somehow I don't think it would be someone like Senna. Would it be a Fangio, Clark, Moss, Gurney, Stewart or Prost? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
What drivers of the past would great in today's F1 cars with grooved tires?
Started by
Joe Fan
, Mar 26 2000 10:21
17 replies to this topic
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#2
404KF2
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Posted 26 March 2000 - 13:33
Just about any driver from the "fat driver-skinny tire" era. These guys were used to less than ideal grip...Georges Boillot comes to mind here!
#3
Ray Bell
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Posted 26 March 2000 - 16:43
I think any you've mentioned would quickly work out the plot. Even others, those who only drove on slicks. These drivers simply work with what they have, as you would see, for instance, in the rapid progress of Emerson Fittipaldi from radial-tyred FFord to F1 when it was almost on slicks. He then went onto slicks and became World Champion.
So where was he great? In FF, where he showed he was terrific on road tyres and so earned a chance at F2/3/1? Or in F1, where he became World Champion.
A comparison with Colin Bond might be appropriate. Colin was at his best in rallies (was it Hannu Mikkolo or Ari Vatanen who, when asked without notice, on British TV who was the greatest rally driver he'd known simply named Bond?), but he got a drive in F5000 after a couple years of Production Touring Cars. Then there was a wet practice session (it was the only meeting he drove the car, from memory) and he was 30 secs quicker than the next best.
Now, that might mean a lot of things, but he was regularly racing on treaded tyres, had begun racing on treaded race tyres, rallied on radials, then jumped in at the deep end with slicks on F5000 and did more than just okay.
It really is a matter of they can drive anything.
Anyone want to know why he was considered the best rally driver in the world?
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
So where was he great? In FF, where he showed he was terrific on road tyres and so earned a chance at F2/3/1? Or in F1, where he became World Champion.
A comparison with Colin Bond might be appropriate. Colin was at his best in rallies (was it Hannu Mikkolo or Ari Vatanen who, when asked without notice, on British TV who was the greatest rally driver he'd known simply named Bond?), but he got a drive in F5000 after a couple years of Production Touring Cars. Then there was a wet practice session (it was the only meeting he drove the car, from memory) and he was 30 secs quicker than the next best.
Now, that might mean a lot of things, but he was regularly racing on treaded tyres, had begun racing on treaded race tyres, rallied on radials, then jumped in at the deep end with slicks on F5000 and did more than just okay.
It really is a matter of they can drive anything.
Anyone want to know why he was considered the best rally driver in the world?
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#4
Roger Clark
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Posted 26 March 2000 - 22:26
In about 1980, Stirling moss did a season in the British touring Car Championship driving an Audi 80. He didn't do particularly well and was comprehensively beaten by his teammate, a young Martin Brundle. One of the reasons given at the time was Moss' difficulty coming to terms with slick tyres. He was aged 50 at the time and pretty fit. I still think it was a pity he didn't persevere longer.
This is an interesting topic and very close to one I was thinking of starting, namely which drivers of hte past would be great in todays racing, taking into account all changes, not just the tyres. My favourite candidate is Tazio Nuvolari who had a technical awareness and adaptability to his driving well in excess of his contempories.
The thought of Nuvolari in a V10 Ferrari at Monza is rivalled only by Schumacher in a P3 Alfa on the Nurburgring!
This is an interesting topic and very close to one I was thinking of starting, namely which drivers of hte past would be great in todays racing, taking into account all changes, not just the tyres. My favourite candidate is Tazio Nuvolari who had a technical awareness and adaptability to his driving well in excess of his contempories.
The thought of Nuvolari in a V10 Ferrari at Monza is rivalled only by Schumacher in a P3 Alfa on the Nurburgring!
#5
Keir
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Posted 26 March 2000 - 23:44
I believe any top line driver of the past would be able to drive well today, but I'm not sure if the opposite applies. Today's drivers are quite accustomed to a lot of grip and even with the grooved tires, they still have more grip than mid-seventies cars.
Again, the question is too abstract to give an accurate answer. Who really knows how Nuvolari, would deal with braking distances of less than 20 meters, Or Ronnie Peterson not being able to slide his car around??
Would Schumacher be as brave at the old Spa???
Questions, Questions!!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
Again, the question is too abstract to give an accurate answer. Who really knows how Nuvolari, would deal with braking distances of less than 20 meters, Or Ronnie Peterson not being able to slide his car around??
Would Schumacher be as brave at the old Spa???
Questions, Questions!!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
#6
f li
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 02:13
Joe -
Them tires look groovy enough, lad?
[This message has been edited by f li (edited 03-26-2000).]
Them tires look groovy enough, lad?
[This message has been edited by f li (edited 03-26-2000).]
#7
Joe Fan
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 02:51
f li, pre-slick, pre-wing era. Those guys were the ones who could really drive huh?
#8
f li
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 02:57
Joe,
Those days, a driver would be driving in more than one event that weekend - they sure weren't Sunday drivers! (Clark and Stewart once took a loaded 18-wheeler around Brands Hatch for a lark!)
Those days, a driver would be driving in more than one event that weekend - they sure weren't Sunday drivers! (Clark and Stewart once took a loaded 18-wheeler around Brands Hatch for a lark!)
#9
Art
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 03:19
Joe.
All of the top drivers would do well in todays cars except Fangio. The old guy was so over weight that he wouldn't fit.
Art
All of the top drivers would do well in todays cars except Fangio. The old guy was so over weight that he wouldn't fit.
Art
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 06:05
By the pictures I've seen, Ascari, Gonzales and a few others weren't real slim either... let's just open up the cockpits to fit them for the sake of this thread...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#11
SteveB2
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Posted 27 March 2000 - 22:18
For the past six months half of the replies I make have a Zanardi in them... I need to move on with my life. That said, I think Zanardi's example of a racer who tends to toss around a car being unable to come to grips with the grooved tires gives us an indication of who in the past might have trouble dealing with the grooves. I think Gilles and Jochen would have a tough time today modifying their styles to put smoothness above all else. In contrast to f li's picture of Clark with his tail hanging out, I know Clark was an incredibly smooth driver. I assume that the comparisons of the conditions of Clark's and Graham Hill's cars indicate that GH may have been one who slung his car around a bit more. (That is, the story where the mechanic described the condition of the brakes and tires between the two drivers.)
#12
Vercertorix
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Posted 28 March 2000 - 01:26
The "greats" of any era become great because they're great. They work with whatever the era has to offer, and they do it better than the "average" guys do.
The same people who were on top then would be on top now - if they had cars capable of it.
The thing that's changed now is the influence of technology, or in its simplest form - money. Jimmy Clark or Ayrton Senna in a Minardi would be guys in a Minardi - they'd finish nowhere, if they finished at all. But it wouldn't be the tyres that made the difference.
The same people who were on top then would be on top now - if they had cars capable of it.
The thing that's changed now is the influence of technology, or in its simplest form - money. Jimmy Clark or Ayrton Senna in a Minardi would be guys in a Minardi - they'd finish nowhere, if they finished at all. But it wouldn't be the tyres that made the difference.
#13
Keir
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Posted 28 March 2000 - 01:34
I think what you will find with "yesterday's"
driver's, is that they drove the cars, the way the cars had to be driven.
Chris Amon, for example, started out in front-engine cars and left racing just before the "ground-effect" era. So, here was a driver who could adapt. Ronnie Peterson would have had a very tough time all during the "skirt" era and wouldn't like today's cars at all. And Gilles would hate them!!!!
Would they come to grips anyway???
Good question!!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
driver's, is that they drove the cars, the way the cars had to be driven.
Chris Amon, for example, started out in front-engine cars and left racing just before the "ground-effect" era. So, here was a driver who could adapt. Ronnie Peterson would have had a very tough time all during the "skirt" era and wouldn't like today's cars at all. And Gilles would hate them!!!!
Would they come to grips anyway???
Good question!!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 28 March 2000 - 07:12
Actually, Ronnie Peterson was in contention for the World Championship during the skirt era...
Just as Jochen Rindt drove on both treaded tyres and the next best thing to slicks. After all, the introduction of slicks was a gradual thing, with a year and more of tyres with just a few little cuts in them before the full-blown slick arrived in 1971.
Zanardi is a problem that I can't come to grips with, I just don't know what to think about him other than that it might have been his relationship with his engineer (and a great engineer) in CART that made him look better than he was. But he still drove the races...?
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
Just as Jochen Rindt drove on both treaded tyres and the next best thing to slicks. After all, the introduction of slicks was a gradual thing, with a year and more of tyres with just a few little cuts in them before the full-blown slick arrived in 1971.
Zanardi is a problem that I can't come to grips with, I just don't know what to think about him other than that it might have been his relationship with his engineer (and a great engineer) in CART that made him look better than he was. But he still drove the races...?
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#15
Keir
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Posted 28 March 2000 - 11:02
Ray,
The Lotus 78 & 79 put Ronnie in a position to be competitive that first full year of "skirts". Ronnie had a terrible time setting up the car and the following seasons' examples would not have been to the Swede's liking. Would he have adjusted? Who knows?
But we do know that ground effect cars did not like to be slid around.
As for the slicks vs today's grooves, the older tires of the 60's and 70's share nothing except the fact that they were all black. Not a good comparison!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
The Lotus 78 & 79 put Ronnie in a position to be competitive that first full year of "skirts". Ronnie had a terrible time setting up the car and the following seasons' examples would not have been to the Swede's liking. Would he have adjusted? Who knows?
But we do know that ground effect cars did not like to be slid around.
As for the slicks vs today's grooves, the older tires of the 60's and 70's share nothing except the fact that they were all black. Not a good comparison!!!
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"I Was Born Ready"
#16
Ray Bell
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Posted 29 March 2000 - 05:09
..and some Firestones had a skinny whitewall.
You're right about Ronnie, he doesn't look nearly as good in a 79 as he did in the 72 - sideways!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
You're right about Ronnie, he doesn't look nearly as good in a 79 as he did in the 72 - sideways!
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#17
Statesidefan
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Posted 29 March 2000 - 11:16
Two words: Jim Clark
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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976
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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976
#18
ZippyD
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Posted 29 March 2000 - 23:45
I seem to remember Gille Villeneuve getting the "ground effects" Ferrari quite sideways on numerous occasions.
At the Glen in 81, he and Alan Jones in the non "ground effects" Williams FW07(I think it was the 07) had a hell of a battle. Keir and I were sitting at the old start finish line, right after the main straight. As Gille came screaming around the 90 he would get that Ferrari twitching like a cobra. On some laps he would come by in these beautiful power slides. AWSOME!!! AMAZING!!!! What a sight to behold. Now that's driving. That's passion.
Too bad Alan lost a wheel after stooping for new tires. It was a great battle while it lasted.
Wow, just thinking about that day gets my blood going. It is also causing a few of my bodily organs to swell enormously. Oh well, back to work.
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"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."
[This message has been edited by ZippyD (edited 03-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by ZippyD (edited 03-29-2000).]
At the Glen in 81, he and Alan Jones in the non "ground effects" Williams FW07(I think it was the 07) had a hell of a battle. Keir and I were sitting at the old start finish line, right after the main straight. As Gille came screaming around the 90 he would get that Ferrari twitching like a cobra. On some laps he would come by in these beautiful power slides. AWSOME!!! AMAZING!!!! What a sight to behold. Now that's driving. That's passion.
Too bad Alan lost a wheel after stooping for new tires. It was a great battle while it lasted.
Wow, just thinking about that day gets my blood going. It is also causing a few of my bodily organs to swell enormously. Oh well, back to work.
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"Pete, Do you sometimes get tired? Of the driving? Lately I have been getting tired. Very tired."
[This message has been edited by ZippyD (edited 03-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by ZippyD (edited 03-29-2000).]
