44 replies to this topic

[Schumi Fan]

While going through Road & Track's 50th Anniversary edition (June 1997), I came across the review of a book called ‘Damon Hill – World Champion’ by D. Tremayne. I was quite surprised to read the following: “Occasionally there are fascinating insights, such as his being sent off to California to live with our own Contributing Editor, Phil Hill, after the death of his father...”.

I’m assuming that they are talking about THE Phil Hill, GP Driver and 1961 WDC, since Phil did occasionally contribute to this magazine. How is Damon (or Graham) related to Phil? I always thought that they were unrelated, and that their last names were just a coincidence…

[This message has been edited by Schumi Fan (edited 03-24-2000).]

[Keir]

Only the names are the same.
But Phil's son, Derek does race.

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"I Was Born Ready"

[Dennis David]

They of course are not related though Bette Hill and the family had a rough go of it due to various lawsuits.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[BRG]

Hang on, this is all news to me. When did Damon H go to live in California with Phil H? And what is this about Bette H and lawsuits?? More info pleeeease!

I've always thought it a strange thing that out of the comparatively few WCs, there should have been three named Hill, even if two were related.

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Dennis David]

Because of the airplane crash suffered by her husband, Graham Hill the familiy was really hard hit financially.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[BRG]

Dennis

Yes, I know that money was very tight for Bette Hill and the kids, but what was that about lawsuits? And where did Phil Hill fit in?

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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Schumi Fan]

Dennis, why Phil Hill? Were Damon (or Graham) and Phil related? Friends? I understand about financial difficulties, but why didn't Damon go to Mario Andretti's house? Obviously there must have been some relation between them...

[Dennis David]

The food was better at Phil's.

I'll have to look that one up because I don't remember any relationship with Phil Hill and the family. Naturally my interest was more with his father Graham. Maybe others can help while I do a little digging.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Eric McLoughlin]

I'm pretty sure there are no family connections at all between the British Hills (Graham and Damon) and the American Hills (Phil and Derek).

Many problems arose because of Graham's aeroplane accident. From what I've read:
his pilot's licence was not up to date,
he hadn't filed a formal flight plan and,
his insurance was inadequate.

Damon's progress as a racing driver is to be admired because he had to start from what was almost a deficit situation.

[Ray Bell]

I wonder what Tony Alcock thought of all that - he was very much a man to dot Is and cross Ts - built those beautiful Birranas. Probably would have gone on to the same sort of acclaim Malcolm Oastler has achieved.
Anyone want some copies of Malcolm's early drawings? We used to use them in Racing Car News..

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Huw Jenjin]

Damon's Family hit hardship because of a succesful lawsuit brought about by the family of one of his passengers during the fatal flight from France, which ended at Elstree golf course. The passengers were Tony Brise, Ray Brimble and a couple of others.
Graham Hill was accused of causing their deaths on a number of counts of negligence.
Betty Hill, Damon's mother, arranged for young Damon to get away from it all by staying with Phil Hill, who was a family friend.
Graham Hill's family did not therefor benefit from much of the wealth that he had generated up to that time.
Damon was an impecunious courier bike rider in his eaarly days, and did not benefit from a wealthy backgound. However his family connections led to Brands Hatch owner John Webb giving Damon a break in Formula Ford.

[Ray Bell]

Like I said, Tony Alcock, Hill's designer. And I think it is Bette Hill.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Vercertorix]

The relationship was a solid friendship between Phil and Graham, and they used to (well, Graham used to, Phil was a fairly serious guy) joke about being "cousins." Also, Graham on at least one occasion managed a completely straight face for the benefit of some not-very-familiar-with-racing journalist while passing Phil off as his older brother, who'd been stolen by Gypsies or something (I've long forgotten the exact story) as an infant, which was why they had different accents.

Graham was something of a wag.

But the relationship was always "good friend."

[Huw Jenjin]

Tch Tch, is this a "spelling forum", or a "lets put our best Australian foot forward" forum. Can we get back to the enthusiastic jabbering.......

[Ray Bell]

My, My! Out of respect for the lady I merely point out the correct spelling of her name...
Sure, let's get back to the enthusiastic jabbering, but wherever possible, let's be uplifting in our standards. In this forum, especially, there is a need for accuracy. Additionally, as I've mentioned before, I see myself more as a citizen of the world than of Australia, even though I do love the place. I even consider NZ a part of my domain, though I've never been there.
But is this really the way I should be spending my thousandth post? I had thought I would use it for something significant...
(Dennis posted my first - the start of the Alfa P3 thread - so the counter says only 999)


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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

Ray,
Again with the spelling????
Don't you remember the problems the last time you brought this up. It got really ugly and IT'S not the way we want to portray our happy family. Lighten up.
And remember everyone: SPELL CHECK, SPELL CHECK, SPELL CHECK.

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"Hugo, have you ever tried Ouzzo?"
"Madame I have tried everything."
"Well last night I had Ouzzo with some Greeks. Allot of Ouzzo."
"And what was you husband doing when all this Greek and Ouzzo business was going on?"
"The same thing he's always doing the night before a race; trying to sleep."

[Ray Bell]

Spelling wasn't the issue last time....
It was the wrong word. And it wasn't me that made it ugly... have a look at some of the other ugly threads... try Tech Forum for the Traction Control one..

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Nathan]

Nope

[ghinzani]

You can see whY Damon would have fitted in over at Phil Hills in California. Damon shows all the signs of being the most level headed man in modern day racing by a long way, super fellow who thoroughly deserved his WDC because he was and is a real human being, not a jerk like the bloke who preceeded him.

[Twin Window]

Did you decide to start at the beginning of TNF and work your way forward Ghinza?

[sterling49]

[Bloggsworth]

Originally posted by BRG
And what is this about Bette H and lawsuits?? More info pleeeease!

As I understand it, as the accident was 100% Graham Hill's fault; owing to his insistence on trying to land in fog when he was warned off by Elstree; the insurers wouldn't pay out, so the relatives of the passengers sued Graham Hill's estate.

[LB]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Did you decide to start at the beginning of TNF and work your way forward Ghinza?

I actually did that one day years ago, never replied to much though.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Did you decide to start at the beginning of TNF and work your way forward Ghinza?

Originally posted by LB
I actually did that one day years ago, never replied to much though.

I find myself doing it quite frequently, often being reminded as to just how much priceless information is actually jam-packed into this forum, as well as a reminder as to just how much TNF has evolved over time.

[wolf sun]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Did you decide to start at the beginning of TNF and work your way forward Ghinza?

Funnily enough, yesterday I decided that this is going to be my next "spare time project"!

When I´m through with this, about ten years from now, I will write a book, entitled "What I´ve learned from TNF" - the first ten buyers will receive a free anorak...I only hope that I can bribe Don Capps into writing the foreword ;)

[fines]

What I've learned from TNF?

To ignore the past!

C'mon guys, TNF is history - leave it alone!;)

[Rosemayer]

Graham always had a good sense of humor.

[Formula Once]

Hill bought the plane, a Piper, in the US with the money he won at Indy in 1966. He never bothered to do the paperwork and register the thing in the UK. The American ex-owner ended up un-registering it in the US, but Graham flew around Europe with the American registration numbers still on the sides. The plane was thus never insured. Also, Hill did not have the proper ratings to fly on instruments and there are many (scary) stories of the people who have flown with him because he never did care much for the rules. When he left an airport near Marseille that fateful day (after a fuel stop) the Piper was overweight and its altitude meter was wrongly set (for sealevel, not Elstree). When being strongly advised several times to land at Luton (because of the fog) Hill ignored this advice and headed for Elstree anyway. His car was parked there he wanted to go home quickly as he threw a dinner party at his house that evening. He came down in severe fog, flying much lower than he thought and mistaking the lights from the A1 for the runway of the airport. He hit a tree at the golf course nearby the airfield and that resulted in the plane crashing down and exploding on the golf course. There were many twists of fate that day: testing with the GH2 at Paul Ricard had been posponed due to bad weather and only because of that Hill flew in at the end of the week (he was shooting at Gleneagles earlier and could not be in France before). The team had already changed their flights from Nice to the UK to Sunday, but with Hill flying in they could all bar a few fly back with him on Saturday already. In fact, Ronnie Peterson, who was testing there too, asked if he could fly back as well, but as a had a Swedish passport, Hill refused as he did not want to lose time at customs. Also, one mechanic who was supposed to drive back with the truck was offered a seat (by another mechanic) as he played in a band and would otherwise miss a gig that Saturday evening... The other mechanic (who drove back on the truck and thus survived) arrived home much later, by the time his wife had been told already he had died...

[Jerome]

Originally posted by Formula Once
Hill bought the plane, a Piper, in the US with the money he won at Indy in 1966. He never bothered to do the paperwork and register the thing in the UK. The American ex-owner ended up un-registering it in the US, but Graham flew around Europe with the American registration numbers still on the sides. The plane was thus never insured. Also, Hill did not have the proper ratings to fly on instruments and there are many (scary) stories of the people who have flown with him because he never did care much for the rules. When he left an airport near Marseille that fateful day (after a fuel stop) the Piper was overweight and its altitude meter was wrongly set (for sealevel, not Elstree). When being strongly advised several times to land at Luton (because of the fog) Hill ignored this advice and headed for Elstree anyway. His car was parked there he wanted to go home quickly as he threw a dinner party at his house that evening. He came down in severe fog, flying much lower than he thought and mistaking the lights from the A1 for the runway of the airport. He hit a tree at the golf course nearby the airfield and that resulted in the plane crashing down and exploding on the golf course. There were many twists of fate that day: testing with the GH2 at Paul Ricard had been posponed due to bad weather and only because of that Hill flew in at the end of the week (he was shooting at Gleneagles earlier and could not be in France before). The team had already changed their flights from Nice to the UK to Sunday, but with Hill flying in they could all bar a few fly back with him on Saturday already. In fact, Ronnie Peterson, who was testing there too, asked if he could fly back as well, but as a had a Swedish passport, Hill refused as he did not want to lose time at customs. Also, one mechanic who was supposed to drive back with the truck was offered a seat (by another mechanic) as he played in a band and would otherwise miss a gig that Saturday evening... The other mechanic (who drove back on the truck and thus survived) arrived home much later, by the time his wife had been told already he had died...

Christ! So it almost was Tony Brise, Graham Hill and Ronnie Peterson in one stroke! That would have surpassed, in a very grim way, the death of Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Ritchie Valens!

[wolf sun]

Originally posted by Formula Once
Hill bought the plane, a Piper, in the US with the money he won at Indy in 1966. He never bothered to do the paperwork and register the thing in the UK. The American ex-owner ended up un-registering it in the US, but Graham flew around Europe with the American registration numbers still on the sides. The plane was thus never insured. Also, Hill did not have the proper ratings to fly on instruments and there are many (scary) stories of the people who have flown with him because he never did care much for the rules. When he left an airport near Marseille that fateful day (after a fuel stop) the Piper was overweight and its altitude meter was wrongly set (for sealevel, not Elstree). When being strongly advised several times to land at Luton (because of the fog) Hill ignored this advice and headed for Elstree anyway. His car was parked there he wanted to go home quickly as he threw a dinner party at his house that evening. He came down in severe fog, flying much lower than he thought and mistaking the lights from the A1 for the runway of the airport. He hit a tree at the golf course nearby the airfield and that resulted in the plane crashing down and exploding on the golf course. There were many twists of fate that day: testing with the GH2 at Paul Ricard had been posponed due to bad weather and only because of that Hill flew in at the end of the week (he was shooting at Gleneagles earlier and could not be in France before). The team had already changed their flights from Nice to the UK to Sunday, but with Hill flying in they could all bar a few fly back with him on Saturday already. In fact, Ronnie Peterson, who was testing there too, asked if he could fly back as well, but as a had a Swedish passport, Hill refused as he did not want to lose time at customs. Also, one mechanic who was supposed to drive back with the truck was offered a seat (by another mechanic) as he played in a band and would otherwise miss a gig that Saturday evening... The other mechanic (who drove back on the truck and thus survived) arrived home much later, by the time his wife had been told already he had died...

Are these facts? Where did you gather your knowledge?

[brucemoxon]

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Graham always had a good sense of humor.

My eyes, my eyes!


I'm going to need about 3/4 of a roll of mental floss for that one.



BM

[ensign14]

Originally posted by wolf sun


Are these facts? Where did you gather your knowledge?

The Lost Generation, perhaps, it goes into some detail.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by wolf sun


Are these facts? Where did you gather your knowledge?

Alas most are facts. The official report is here

[P. Dron]

Nobody has asked yet whether Benny and Harry were part of the family. Not to mention Fanny.

I was out and about in London that night, and I have never witnessed denser fog.

At that time, I knew a slightly dodgy character by the name of Rowley Hill, who was involved with a wine bar in Greenwich. He used to play rugby for a French club, and he was due to return from France that night. I think he used to fly his own light aircraft. Being less fearless than GH, he decided not to return that night, because of the weather. His wife was woken at about 3am by the doorbell ringing. It was Plod, telling her that her husband had died in a plane crash at Elstree. Nice. And efficient.

[Formula Once]

Not all but some info from Lost Generation indeed + several magazine reports from 1975, mostly British and German.

[wolf sun]

Thanks for that.
Coincidentally, I`ve started reading "The Lost Generation" just yesterday...

[Formula Once]

A good book that.

[JtP1]

I am afraid I am working from memory, but these are some of the facts as I remember them.

Elstree airfield was a day time only and closed by the time Hill arrived there. He had apparently done this on many previous occasions and landed illegally in the dark. There were no runway lights as the field was not open in the dark and he was definately not redirected there. Hill was highly unlikely to have needed to clear customs as there would be no one there to inspect the plane or passengers.

Hill apparently used a large nearby glasshouse (a commercial sized one) as a positioning point for the approach and in the mist got it wrong.

The dinner that was being attended was the F1 mechanics dinner and the mechanics on board were going to it. The flight should have been no problem, but the team left Magny Cours late and this caused the night landing. I can't remember why they were so late, but as Hill seems to have carried out the manouver on previous occassions he must have had no concern in doing so again. Unfortunately the luck of previous landings deserted him on this occasion due to the ground mist .

[MCS]

Interesting, JtP1...Welcome to TNF.

Remember anything else..?

[Pedro 917]

Goodwood, Festival Of Speed 2003 : Bette & Phil Hill.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by JtP1
Unfortunately the luck of previous landings deserted him on this occasion due to the ground mist .

... and a wrong altimeter setting

Carlos: those are two beautiful pictures. I was at Goodwood that year and was close enough to Phil to touch him. I wasn't that lucky with Bette (whom God preserve) - in fact I never even saw her :

[Catalina Park]

I read an aviation book a few years back where some bloke tried to do accident investigations on old crashes using modern techniques. One of the accidents he investigated was Hill's. His view was that Hill mistook a red light on a railway line for the red light at the airport and tried to set down in the wrong place.

I have no idea if this theory was correct or bollocks.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I read an aviation book a few years back where some bloke tried to do accident investigations on old crashes using modern techniques. One of the accidents he investigated was Hill's. His view was that Hill mistook a red light on a railway line for the red light at the airport and tried to set down in the wrong place.

I have no idea if this theory was correct or bollocks.

I think it has to be the latter.
He went in about 4 km past the Great Northern main line and 3 km before the Midland.
The AIB was quite a lot better at investigating air accidents, even in 1975, than someone trying to do that 20 or 30 years later without first-hand access to the wreckage and data.

Rather than reading it up in a book (The Lost Generation, or whatever) read the report I linked earlier.

[Catalina Park]

I just read the accident report while looking at Google maps and I am totally convinced that the book was talking bollocks. :

[Twin Window]

Continuing somewhat OT, does anyone recall which teams were testing at Ricard along with the Hill outfit in late-November 1975?

Lotus were present, but I don't remember ever hearing about any others - perhaps there weren't any?