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Suzuka 2009 Pre-Race Discussion


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#1 Ellios

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:23

Legendary Suzuka - one of the very best F1 race tracks! Classic figure of eight layout

Man and machine against the track? or against each other?


Brawn for WDC & WCC ?

Mclarens winning again or perhaps Red Bulls? - Hamilton and Kova not raced F1 at this track - who else hasn't raced here before, must be a few of them now.


was lucky enough to only drive past there last year.... but really looking forward to this race





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#2 Buckethead

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:40

I fear that this years cars will produce very boring race. But hopefully not :)

#3 Pharazon

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:44

lots of high speed corners... i don't see the McLarens winning..

this is going to be a straight fight between the Brawns and the Red Bulls i think, BMW a dark horse

#4 GNT4ME

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:46

Wearher looks like it will tip the scales in RBR direction.

#5 Clatter

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:46

It's a new track for LH, so will be interesting to see how quickly he gets up to speed there. Has HK driven there before?

#6 peroa

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:48

Nope.

#7 rodlamas

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:50

Mclaren areb't supposed to do well at all... But I think we will be in for a surprise and Hamilton will be among the top 3.

Kovalainen, well... We'd better wait for Kimi next year to imagine we can have 2 Mclarens producing a top result.

#8 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 10:52

Don't overlook Force India, Spa and Suzuka are similar circuit types.

#9 peroa

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 11:05

Mclaren aren't supposed to do well at all ... But I think we will be in for a surprise and Hamilton will be among the top 3.

Kovalainen, well... We'd better wait for Kimi next year to imagine we can have 2 Mclarens producing a top result.


Well, I hope the updates brought to Singapore have been a step up, because judging by Spa performance the weekend could be a bit tough otherwise.

#10 MaxFan1

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 11:28

It's a new track for LH, so will be interesting to see how quickly he gets up to speed there. Has HK driven there before?


3 out of 4 tracks he won in 2007 were tracks he never raced in before IIRC. One of the main strenghts Hamilton has is his ability to get up to speed very quickly.

Not sure if he's raced there in any of the junior categories though.

#11 Cenotaph

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:11

this is not the same mclaren from the start of the season, they will be ok, i think. maybe not the best car, but a podium would hardly be surprising.

#12 mountford

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:18

Force India FTW.

Sutil will drag Nick onto the podium :smoking:

#13 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:24

I had a discussion with the clever and polite Seanspeed in this thread => http://forums.autosp...w...114834&st=0

Searching now in the internet I found this link: Info about Suzuka from 2006 BMW data

I was right Sean  ;)

Force India will return to shine because the track's requirements are similar to Spa's.

Mclaren and Williams who shone in last Sunday will be pathetic in the high speed corners.

Probably the fastest car will be in this order: RBR, BMW, Toyota, FI and Brawn or Ferrari.

Considering Spa's performances and the recent big aero update, there is a chance BMW will dominate the field in the following weekend, although they always screw up their races somehow.

#14 rodlamas

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:32

Well, I hope the updates brought to Singapore have been a step up, because judging by Spa performance the weekend could be a bit tough otherwise.


I remember just after Belgium somebody senior from the Mclaren technical camp gave an interview that people tend to think that Spa and Suzuka are quite common, but their needs aren't that close.

He said something like "Spa is a bit like Monza, where downforce efficiency is what matters. Suzuka is a bit more about overall downforce level, not so much efficiency."

#15 rodlamas

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:35

Suzuka also has a 5-6 seconds run to the start/finish line... Drivers will again usse double KERS for qualifying...

#16 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:37

Mclarens winning again or perhaps Red Bulls?

this is not the same mclaren from the start of the season, they will be ok, i think. maybe not the best car, but a podium would hardly be surprising.

Is there punishment in this forum for excessive fanboyism? Because only excessive fanboyism can explain people fooling theirselfs again regarding this matter.

Mclaren areb't supposed to do well at all... But I think we will be in for a surprise and Hamilton will be among the top 3.

only if rain and many things happen.

Don't overlook Force India, Spa and Suzuka are similar circuit types.

:up:

lots of high speed corners... i don't see the McLarens winning..
this is going to be a straight fight between the Brawns and the Red Bulls i think, BMW a dark horse

I agree with all except Brawn. Why do you think they will do well in Suzuka? In Spa they were 5th best car and even in a circuit that should have suited them as Singapore, they were below expected. :confused:

#17 peroa

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:41

I remember just after Belgium somebody senior from the Mclaren technical camp gave an interview that people tend to think that Spa and Suzuka are quite common, but their needs aren't that close.

He said something like "Spa is a bit like Monza, where downforce efficiency is what matters. Suzuka is a bit more about overall downforce level, not so much efficiency."


Like Barcelona?
Yikes ...

#18 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:42

Suzuka also has a 5-6 seconds run to the start/finish line... Drivers will again usse double KERS for qualifying...


People used that reasoning to say Monza would be a KERS whitewash. The Brawns then dominated and Raikkonen only just held off the non KERS Force India.

KERs wont be a large factor other than maybe the start. That said the run to the first corner is short and downhill.

#19 MegaManson

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:42

I would expect similar results to Monza tbh, Suzuka is a bit like Monza in terms of speed so Brawn, Force India, Hamilton probably Red Bull will be very strong, Kimi likes Suzuka too

Prediction


1. Barrichello
2. Hamllton
3. Raikkonen
4. Vettel
5. Button
6. Sutil
7. Webber
8. Kubica

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#20 slideways

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:44

It's been far too long since we've been to Suzuka, by far my favourite 'technical' track on the calendar (and outright second after Monaco).

I think RBR should have the fastest car, but really this entire season has been a step by step guide on how not to extrapolate the potential from their car, be it driver error, pitstop issues, strategy or whatever.

Button will deliver a great victory, with Hamilton, Webber, Vettel and Barrichello in the top 5.

#21 Psymon

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:58

Weather looks like it will tip the scales in RBR direction.


Definitely looks like the weather's gonna play a part, looking at the map (which currently goes to Saturday, compared to Friday with the summary) on the forecast at http://news.bbc.co.u...r/forecast/5007 it seems that rain's going to play a role in the weekend, which could make things interesting!

Edited by Psymon, 28 September 2009 - 12:59.


#22 Cenotaph

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:18

Is there punishment in this forum for excessive fanboyism? Because only excessive fanboyism can explain people fooling theirselfs again regarding this matter.


Im not even a McLaren fan... :rolleyes:

#23 Atreiu

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:26

Don't overlook Force India, Spa and Suzuka are similar circuit types.


I was under the impression they ran much much more downforce at Suzuka compared to Spa. IMO, it's more like Silverstone than Spa.

---

No matter how much McLaren has improved, Spa was a nice wake up call to show there's still a lot to do. They'll be lucky to get some points, only heavy attrition can get them a podium. If Red Bull can overcome being short on engines, they should run away with it. Brawn has been up and down, I really don't know if they'll be gunning for the win or some points only. Ferrari, Force India? It's been quite confusing an unpredictable lately...

I hope it rains.

#24 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:31

Remember a lot of the drivers in f1 never drove a f1 race on suzuka. Hamilton and Vettel are amongst them. I expect the red bulls to perform well, the problem is they don't seem to be able to extract the best out of the car when they are favorites (like at spa). Mario thiessen explained suzuka is a difficult track for the engines, pulling the 6g's trough r130 they are worried about keeping the moving parts oiled. Shouldn't be the biggest problem for most teams, but if you only have 1 engine left then it could be problematic.

furthermore I think FI could perform well and mclaren will struggle to be in q3.

#25 pippin

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:33

The extended forecasts I've seen have rain Friday, showers Saturday and dry Sunday. If this plays out it could possibly be an advantage to those drivers with previous experience of the track, due to lack of running.

It'll definitely be interesting to see if the balance swings again towards teams like Force India and BMW. I also expect Red Bull to be competitive owing to the high speed corners. Jenson and Rubens have both had good results here in the past, so they should be able to get in the mix too. Not sure about Maclaren honestly, but Lewis can always be counted on to be there or thereabouts.



#26 Clatter

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:35

Remember a lot of the drivers in f1 never drove a f1 race on suzuka. Hamilton and Vettel are amongst them. I expect the red bulls to perform well, the problem is they don't seem to be able to extract the best out of the car when they are favorites (like at spa). Mario thiessen explained suzuka is a difficult track for the engines, pulling the 6g's trough r130 they are worried about keeping the moving parts oiled. Shouldn't be the biggest problem for most teams, but if you only have 1 engine left then it could be problematic.

furthermore I think FI could perform well and mclaren will struggle to be in q3.


Vettel does have some F1 experience there as 3rd driver in 2006.

#27 Ruud de la Rosa

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:46

Vettel does have some F1 experience there as 3rd driver in 2006.


two sessions, one wet and one dry. couldn't find the number of laps he did, probably a lot

2006 Japanese Grand Prix - Friday practice session 1


Pos No Driver Team Time

1 36 Anthony Davidson Honda 1:45.349
2 40 Neel Jani STR-Cosworth 1:46.138
3 38 Sebastian Vettel Sauber-BMW 1:46.585
4 37 Michael Ammermuller RBR-Ferrari 1:47.162
5 39 Adrian Sutil MF1-Toyota 1:47.773
6 21 Scott Speed STR-Cosworth 1:47.814
7 19 Christijan Albers MF1-Toyota 1:47.838
8 41 Franck Montagny Super Aguri-Honda 1:47.918
9 35 Alexander Wurz Williams-Cosworth 1:47.919
10 22 Takuma Sato Super Aguri-Honda 1:48.042
11 23 Sakon Yamamoto Super Aguri-Honda 1:50.479
12 9 Mark Webber Williams-Cosworth
13 10 Nico Rosberg Williams-Cosworth
14 3 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes
15 20 Vitantonio Liuzzi STR-Cosworth
16 15 Robert Doornbos RBR-Ferrari
17 17 Robert Kubica Sauber-BMW
18 14 David Coulthard RBR-Ferrari
19 1 Fernando Alonso Renault
20 16 Nick Heidfeld Sauber-BMW
21 2 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault
22 18 Tiago Monteiro MF1-Toyota
23 4 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes
24 11 Rubens Barrichello Honda
25 8 Jarno Trulli Toyota
26 7 Ralf Schumacher Toyota
27 12 Jenson Button Honda
28 5 Michael Schumacher Ferrari
29 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari

Giancarlo Fisichella has given the Renault F1 Team the best start to their weekend by topping the second practice session.


2006 Japanese Grand Prix - Friday practicxe session 2


Pos No Driver Team Time

1 2 Giancarlo Fisichella Renault 1:34.337
2 6 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:34.408
3 5 Michael Schumacher Ferrari 1:34.565
4 1 Fernando Alonso Renault 1:34.863
5 36 Anthony Davidson Honda 1:34.906
6 38 Sebastian Vettel Sauber-BMW 1:34.912
7 12 Jenson Button Honda 1:35.002
8 4 Pedro de la Rosa McLaren-Mercedes 1:35.064
9 8 Jarno Trulli Toyota 1:35.343
10 3 Kimi Räikkönen McLaren-Mercedes 1:35.367
11 7 Ralf Schumacher Toyota 1:35.375
12 37 Michael Ammermuller RBR-Ferrari 1:35.433
13 11 Rubens Barrichello Honda 1:35.528
14 9 Mark Webber Williams-Cosworth 1:35.866
15 10 Nico Rosberg Williams-Cosworth 1:36.176
16 19 Christijan Albers MF1-Toyota 1:36.180
17 35 Alexander Wurz Williams-Cosworth 1:36.234
18 17 Robert Kubica Sauber-BMW 1:36.299
19 41 Franck Montagny Super Aguri-Honda 1:37.354
20 20 Vitantonio Liuzzi STR-Cosworth 1:37.441
21 21 Scott Speed STR-Cosworth 1:37.501
22 14 David Coulthard RBR-Ferrari 1:37.596
23 18 Tiago Monteiro MF1-Toyota 1:37.702
24 40 Neel Jani STR-Cosworth 1:37.741
25 15 Robert Doornbos RBR-Ferrari 1:37.788
26 22 Takuma Sato Super Aguri-Honda 1:38.533
27 16 Nick Heidfeld Sauber-BMW 1:38.779
28 23 Sakon Yamamoto Super Aguri-Honda 1:38.955
29 39 Adrian Sutil MF1-Toyota 1:43.914



#28 Psymon

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 13:55

two sessions, one wet and one dry. couldn't find the number of laps he did, probably a lot


In 2006 Vettel did 20 laps in Practice 1 and 30 laps in Practice 2... so 50 laps in total,

#29 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:06

Im not even a McLaren fan... :rolleyes:

Ok, so you don't even have a reason to dream Mclaren will do anything good next weekend.

I was under the impression they ran much much more downforce at Suzuka compared to Spa. IMO, it's more like Silverstone than Spa.

Check BMW info  ;) Monza is described as very low downforce, Silverstone and Barcelona as high, and Spa and Suzuka as low
Check it here: LINK

No matter how much McLaren has improved, Spa was a nice wake up call to show there's still a lot to do. They'll be lucky to get some points, only heavy attrition can get them a podium.

:up:

#30 dabrasco

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:22

seems to me like a Silverstone or Barcelona in terms of how important high speed aero will be

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related


Red Bull should have this in the bag, Mclaren will most likely struggle

#31 imthebest

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:27

The Red Bulls were not supposed to be quick in Singapore. the track is like a valencia and monaco where they had maybe the 4th or 5th best car. But they clearly made a big step forward. So going back to a track whish they suit with a package that has obciously improved a lot in the last week should result in a 1-2. anything else would be a bad weekend. Webber is good there, But Seb will probably get the optimum stategy for the championship

#32 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:33

Kimi confirms my prediction that Ferrari will be horrible in Suzuka: link

"I don't expect the situation to be much different next week in Suzuka: it is a very demanding track for the car, from an aerodynamic point of view and we are lacking in this area. Having said that, I will be trying my hardest."

#33 raiseyourfistfor

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:43

Is there punishment in this forum for excessive fanboyism? Because only excessive fanboyism can explain people fooling theirselfs again regarding this matter.


Unfortunately "alonzo", most people on this forum are not F1 engineers and therefore they cannot predict how fast the cars will go like you.
I would also recommend that you go look up the meaning of "fanboyism" because you clearly are using it wrong as well.

P.S. sigbet that Lewis will finish infront of atleast 1 BMW?

#34 Fallout

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:46

Kimi confirms my prediction that Ferrari will be horrible in Suzuka: link

"I don't expect the situation to be much different next week in Suzuka: it is a very demanding track for the car, from an aerodynamic point of view and we are lacking in this area. Having said that, I will be trying my hardest."


He's obviously lying to pull a surprise on Sunday. Don't forget that Kimi won at Suzuka in 2005 with the worst car on the grid from 17th.

:p

#35 imthebest

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 14:47

Lewis has to "master" the track in a car that could very well be dog slow around here. Sure, hes had the best car in Hungary,Valencia, Singapore and Monza, but at suzuka he might very well struggle. Heikki may well beat him around Suzuka. BMW will be fast there with two top class drivers

Edited by imthebest, 28 September 2009 - 14:49.


#36 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:00

Unfortunately "alonzo", most people on this forum are not F1 engineers and therefore they cannot predict how fast the cars will go like you.
I would also recommend that you go look up the meaning of "fanboyism" because you clearly are using it wrong as well.

P.S. sigbet that Lewis will finish infront of atleast 1 BMW?

Is not about being specialist or engineer. This things are pretty obvious sometimes, Norbert Haug confirms Mclaren will not be in good shape for it.

About the bet, I won't bet because BMW's drivers almost always have bad luck and get screwed up somehow, while with Hamilton is exactly the opposite. But if you want to bet which car will be fastest(BMW or Mclaren), then I'm up for it. :p

Edited by Alonzo, 28 September 2009 - 15:01.


#37 molive

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:03

I would expect similar results to Monza tbh, Suzuka is a bit like Monza in terms of speed so Brawn, Force India, Hamilton probably Red Bull will be very strong, Kimi likes Suzuka too

Prediction

1. Barrichello
2. Hamllton
3. Raikkonen
4. Vettel
5. Button
6. Sutil
7. Webber
8. Kubica


For the sake of the WDC fight I hope you´re right. The only thing I'd change is a DNF for Jenson (to make things even more close and open till Brazilian GP). :)

Rubinho had more than his share of bad luck already (changing gear box was the last chapter and lets not even get into the Anti-Stall thingy), I hope he had a trouble-free weekend at Japan.








#38 craftverk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:08

Lewis has to "master" the track in a car that could very well be dog slow around here. Sure, hes had the best car in Hungary,Valencia, Singapore and Monza, but at suzuka he might very well struggle. Heikki may well beat him around Suzuka. BMW will be fast there with two top class drivers

there are so many things wrong with your post i don't know where to start :lol:

Weather is going to play a big hand in this, why are we all going on as if it will be a dry race? Heavy rain is expected at the circuit this week, so if it does rain I expect the Red Bulls to dominate like they did in China

Edited by craftverk, 28 September 2009 - 15:08.


#39 blackonyx4

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:11

He's obviously lying to pull a surprise on Sunday. Don't forget that Kimi won at Suzuka in 2005 with the worst car on the grid from 17th.

:p


What a difference a few years make. Put Kimi (or any other top driver) in best car this year and let him start 17th. He`d be lucky to finish in the points this years. The difference in lap times between top cars and the rest was huge in 2005, unlike this year...

As for this race, I think its going to be the maiden win for Toyota! :drunk:

Edited by blackonyx4, 28 September 2009 - 15:12.


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#40 imthebest

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:12

there are so many things wrong with your post i don't know where to start :lol:

Weather is going to play a big hand in this, why are we all going on as if it will be a dry race? Heavy rain is expected at the circuit this week, so if it does rain I expect the Red Bulls to dominate like they did in China


what is wrong with what i said?

#41 rodlamas

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:19

Lewis has to "master" the track in a car that could very well be dog slow around here. Sure, hes had the best car in Hungary,Valencia, Singapore and Monza, but at suzuka he might very well struggle. Heikki may well beat him around Suzuka. BMW will be fast there with two top class drivers


What to expect except from stupidness from a fanboy who keeps registering once in a day on this BB?

#42 Alonzo

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:20

there are so many things wrong with your post i don't know where to start :lol:

The only real questionable thing about what he wrote, is Kova beating Hamilton.

Rodlamas, are you saying BMW will suck in Suzuka?

Edited by Alonzo, 28 September 2009 - 15:26.


#43 craftverk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:26

what is wrong with what i said?

perhaps wrong isn't word, but i think there are things you've stated that really aren't all that clear in reality imo

i'm still not convinced the McLaren is as good as you say it is. Brawn was certainly the better car to have in Monza at least.

Spa and Suzuka are a bit different, so I don't know if BMW will be as good as you say. like i said before it might rain anyway

#44 imthebest

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:29

Rodlameass, what is wrong with saying Kova "may well" beat hamilton around Suzuka? Its not impossible, it may be unlikey, but its not impossible. It has happened before. I said BMW will be fast here because they were quite reasonable around spa, Mac were not. They have two top class drivers Kubica and Heidfeld.

Am i missing something about this BB?? You are the acting like the fanboy here. Man up

#45 imthebest

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 15:31

perhaps wrong isn't word, but i think there are things you've stated that really aren't all that clear in reality imo

i'm still not convinced the McLaren is as good as you say it is. Brawn was certainly the better car to have in Monza at least.

Spa and Suzuka are a bit different, so I don't know if BMW will be as good as you say. like i said before it might rain anyway


Ok fair reply :up: You may well be right. I still think that Mac was the best in those tracks i mentioned. I may well be wrong. Just an opinion.

#46 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:05

Looks like Friday could be a washout according to the autosport.com/live guys with the rest of the weekend probably being dry. However, if that system slows, then it'll take longer to cross, and so potentially Saturday could also be affected (bit of rain on Saturday for quali wouldn't be the worst thing ever). Sunday will probably (not certain, but probably) be dry though

#47 Birelman

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:13

Well, it's one of the treditional driver's tracks, so, I'm guessing, Hailton, Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen will be strong.

Could be a straight fight between the best packages, which seem to be Brawn and RBR, so, I'd say Vettel should be killer, minus his inexperience at the track, should be an interesting one. Hamilton adapts well to everything, so I expect him to be strong even if he's never seen the track, as he always does.

#48 craftverk

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:22

Well, it's one of the treditional driver's tracks, so, I'm guessing, Hailton, Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen will be strong.

no such thing as a "driver's track"

#49 D.M.N.

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:24

Note that the following will very well direct the weekend's weather: http://en.wikipedia...._Ketsana_(2009)

As for Friday's rain - a lot of prolonged rain is set to hit the circuit - which could possibly 'put cost' to the practice sessions.

#50 Birelman

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Posted 28 September 2009 - 16:29

no such thing as a "driver's track"


There are tracks where drivers make more of a difference, yes, namely, tachnical tracks, like Spa, Monaco, San Marino, Suzuka, yes :)

I don't mean to imply that these drivers will win, but if their machinery isn't so good, they will be closer to the front than in some other tracks. But, you know this, I don't know why you corrected me in such a way, maybe my wording wasn't to your liking?

Edited by Birelman, 28 September 2009 - 16:32.