505 replies to this topic

[holiday]

I am Jenson sympathizer, but don't you think Jenson's likely championship is tainted by the way he has been outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season? If JB had had his slump in the 1st part, one could have credited him at least with gaining the momentum, but now, with Brawn ever more disappearing into the midfield, it hurts to see the future champion coming across so mediocre. Strange situation and honestly a kind of anticlimax for f1 and us fans.

[Jay]

I am Jenson sympathizer, but don't you think Jenson's likely championship is tainted by the way he has been outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season? If JB had had his slump in the 1st part, one could have credited him at least with gaining the momentum, but now, with Brawn ever more disappearing into the midfield, it hurts to see the future champion coming across so mediocre. Strange situation and honestly a kind of anticlimax for f1 and us fans.

I agree.

Also.. I just made a reply in the Hamilton to Brawn thread about my views on the reasons for this.

I really wanted JB to tear it up this season given his start and the lack of action from McLaren (the team I root for).. but he just is limping over the line, isn't it?

J

EDIT :: I don't think his championship will be "tainted".. just that he is making a real hash of things..

Edited by Jay, 03 October 2009 - 14:44.

[Just waiting]

medicore is too much credit

[Brawn BGP 001]

No, if you score the most points and win the most races, you deserve it.

[Ricardo F1]

Exactly. Ridiculous thread.

[ZZMS]

diffuser + second half of the season = less than inspiring to say the least.

[HSJ]

I am Jenson sympathizer, but don't you think Jenson's likely championship is tainted by the way he has been outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season?

Not at all. Jenson has scored the most points (so far) and done nothing wrong personally. It is not his fault if others suck more than he does over the full season. The only questionable thing is really Barcelona for me, where it certainly seemed like Brawn screwed Rubens' strategy in order to help Jenson win.

The only way a championship (or a race) can be tainted is if they cheat (for a team), or if you have unfair advantage e.g. #1 status in your team (for a driver). You have to win fair (no cheating) and with equal status, otherwise there are always question marks over anything you 'achieve'.

[ArDeeEmm]

I am Jenson sympathizer, but don't you think Jenson's likely championship is tainted by the way he has been outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season? If JB had had his slump in the 1st part, one could have credited him at least with gaining the momentum, but now, with Brawn ever more disappearing into the midfield, it hurts to see the future champion coming across so mediocre. Strange situation and honestly a kind of anticlimax for f1 and us fans.

You seem to misunderstand what winning the WDC is about.

It is about winning the most points over the course of a season. A WDC is not "tainted" if he fails to win every race of the season or fails to out-perform his teammate in every race of the season.

The momentum at the beginning or end of the season is irrelevant. It is how you have done over the course of the season, irrespective of any trends within it.

[Just waiting]

diffuser + second half of the season = less than inspiring to say the least.

diffuser gave him a big advantage, screwing RB on pit stops even more, and then the other teams catch up, and JB can not even outrun RB due to necessary changes in handling for the Brawn cars to remain competitive...........

Yep, he will be a great wdc.

[Don_Humpador]

It's not tainted, it's just disappointing that, as someone else said, he appears to be limping over the finishing line.

[learningtobelost]

He's won 6gp this season, that's as many/more than anyone in the previous 2 seasons... it just happend that the Brawn was dominent to start with and he got all his wins in one go... so not tainted, just a bit odd.

[Madras]

He's not the complete driver like Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton. When his car is working he's great, otherwise he seems to struggle. He's not going to finish the season much ahead of Barrichump.

Edited by Madras, 03 October 2009 - 14:50.

[Brawn BGP 001]

He's not the complete driver like Schumacher, Alonso or Hamilton.

No body is saying he is.

[Just waiting]

He's won 6gp this season, that's as many/more than anyone in the previous 2 seasons... it just happend that the Brawn was dominent to start with and he got all his wins in one go... so not tainted, just a bit odd.

Odd????? not at all, just demonstrating it was all car......i canot recall a single season where the one who was wdc was not a challenger through out, (or was such a whinger as jennie.....ever )

[MinT]

No - why is beating your team mate at the start of the season not as good as beating him at the end ? Reubens is just ahead on pace but Jenson is close behind or as in Singapore - just in front. The car has gone off - its not like Barri has won 6 in a row is it ?

Anyway havent we had this thread already ?

[Brawn BGP 001]

Odd????? not at all, just demonstrating it was all car......i canot recall a single season where the one who was wdc was not a challenger through out, (or was such a whinger as jennie.....ever )

[SRi130Brett]

He was going to get criticised for winning it no matter what.

If he carried on his early season form all year, he would only be winning it because of the car. A poor second half of the season and hes not fit or worthy.

The fact is, he won 6 GP this year which is plenty to take the title. He hasnt made any driving mistakes yet this year which is more than can be said for the last few champions. His perfomrance may have dropped off but Im not convinced that hes been comfortably outpaced by Rubens since the UK, its conicided with a drop off in the form of the car.

He did a far better job than Rubens in the last race but it seem to count for nothing.

He wont be the most naturally talented world champion, but he will be worthy on the basis of his early season performance.

I think a lot of people get used to hearing Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel/Kubica/Raikkonen/Massa in the media and being regarded as the best and just assume any champions outside this anointed group have fluked it.

[Madras]

He was going to get criticised for winning it no matter what.

If he carried on his early season form all year, he would only be winning it because of the car. A poor second half of the season and hes not fit or worthy.

The fact is, he won 6 GP this year which is plenty to take the title. He hasnt made any driving mistakes yet this year which is more than can be said for the last few champions. His perfomrance may have dropped off but Im not convinced that hes been comfortably outpaced by Rubens since the UK, its conicided with a drop off in the form of the car.

Yeah that's how Rubens managed to win 2 races.

[Diablobb81]

This thread gives me a feeling of deja vu.

[holiday]

No, if you score the most points and win the most races, you deserve it.

Mathematically speaking, of course. But emotionally, it's like the orgasm coming early on and then waiting out the remaining 20 min. I can't remember when a wingman so much outshone the emerging champion.

[MinT]

What championship are you watching - cause the one I see doesnt have Barrichello "so much outshone" Button. He is at most a few 10th's quicker at times (especially on low fuel) in quali - in the race they are pretty much even whereas when the car was stable early in the season Button gave his team mate a good thrashing - hence the points gap that is still maintained.

[Psymon]

Do we really need another thread on this?

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=113885
http://forums.autosp...howtopic=115896

[HulkenbergRules]

No Button has won it fair and square. Crashgate has, however, tainted Hamilton's 2008 title.

[Arion]

No Button has won it fair and square. Crashgate has, however, tainted Hamilton's 2008 title.

He hasn't won it yet.........

[GimmieKimi]

Jeson won his first races with an illegal car, now that others had the diffuser update they start to beat him, even though their cars are still ifnerior to Buttons. For the 2nd half of the year, Kimi has outclassed Button even though he was driving an inferior car. At the start of the season many said Button was a top 5 driver, where are they now? lol!!

[holiday]

The fact is, he won 6 GP this year which is plenty to take the title. He hasnt made any driving mistakes yet this year which is more than can be said for the last few champions.

Good point. On the other hand, we all know that JB's points cushion is greatly helpt by Brawn slumping into the upper midfield, to 5th, 6th or 7th. Now when RB beats JB, all he can hope for is minimizing the gap by 1,2,3 points, whereas in the early season Button could capitalize from Barrichello's off-days with 5-10 points.

Rubens is not worse than Button this season on one on one basis, he just has to blame himself that he wasn't there when he could have capitalized from Brawn's superiority.

Edited by holiday, 03 October 2009 - 15:06.

[Just waiting]

He did a far better job than Rubens in the last race but it seem to count for nothing.

.

JB simply got the benefit of the better pit strategy---which was another example of who Ross wants to win the WDC...bad form to have your winner wander off, esp. when sponsor money is tight...........only Frank, for whatever reason, would choose to run off the WDC of his team immediately after he won it.....(Remeber damon)

Edited by Just waiting, 03 October 2009 - 15:08.

[Brawn BGP 001]

he just has to blame himself that he wasn't there when he could have capitalized from Brawn's superiority.[/b]

That is why Button has a 15 point lead.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 03 October 2009 - 15:08.

[BRK]

I don't know how being outperformed by your teammate in a championship winning season would make the title 'tainted': opinions might differ,some may call it mediocre or undeserved,but tainted,no.

[Brawn BGP 001]

JB simply got the benefit of the better pit strategy---which was another example of who Ross wants to win the WDC...bad form to have your winner wander off, esp. when sponsor money is tight...........only Frank, for whatever reason, would choose to run off the WDC of his team immediately after he won it.....(Remeber damon)

Right.

[Brawn BGP 001]

Jeson won his first races with an illegal car,

The FIA, Williams and Toyota disagree.

[holiday]

That is why Button has a 15 point lead.

True. But if f1 were boxing, both drivers would have won about the same amount of rounds and that counts a lot in my book. It says that Button in 2009 was a better driver than Barrichello when Brawn was head and shoulders above the other teams, but it does not say that Button was a better driver than Barrichello in the course of the season. Which he wasn't. That's what I would call disappointing, if not somehow tainted.

[Just waiting]

Right.

thanks, about time u saw the truth


The answer is simple. The handling of the car was tailored to fit JB. No sensitve twitchy oversterr....not much like how RB wanted it, plus lots of sharing of info on set up...all due to the diffuser early advantage
other teams catch up, and we have JB weaving in a race to keep his tires hot....

Handling is adjusted to be competitive, maybe RB does not share like he did........and suddenly Jennie is now below average...way below.......

Edited by Just waiting, 03 October 2009 - 15:15.

[Brawn BGP 001]

True. But if f1 were boxing, both drivers would have won about the same amount of rounds and that counts a lot in my book. It says that Button in 2009 was a better driver than Barrichello when Brawn was head and shoulders above the other teams, but it does not say that Button was a better driver than Barrichello in the course of the season. Which he wasn't. That's what I would call disappointing, if not somehow tainted.

I agree the RB has been stronger in the second half of the season and in some races (Valencia, Silverstone) he was ahead of JB, but IMO Button deserves it that little bit more due to the early season domination.

[The Truth]

There was a real and specific reason why Rubens struggled until silverstone and it was because of brake issues. Once he changed brakes at silverstone hes dominatede button in qualifying and been the better brawn driver. If it wasnt for all his bad luck he would be leading button now.

[learningtobelost]

No Button has won it fair and square. Crashgate has, however, tainted Hamilton's 2008 title.

Gah, we get it, you hate Lewis.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[roughage]

These threads are pathetic. I also appreciate the irony of contributing to it in my reply, but it needs saying. The number of posters who have clearly only watched Formula One for the past 5 years is frequently, depressingly, evident. the idea that a team other than McLaren or Ferrari winning somehow invalidates the championship is extremely myopic. For some reason people think that Alonso and Hamilton are in some way vastly superior is based on the fact that they have invariably driven competitive cars. Hamilton has had a Championship challenging car for 2 seasons and a half and struggled early this year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Alonso not get his first podium of the year last week? These are damn good drivers, not Supermen.

Button has had his hands on a couple of good cars in the past and pretty much made the most of them in years dominated by Ferrari. To somehow suggest that this year's challenge is just down to the Brawn car being unfairly fast early on is ludicrous. He has a damn good car and has driven it as fast as it will go. He and Barrichello have been evenly matched, he made more of it in the first half of the season, Rubens seems ahead now. McLaren, Red Bull, and on occasion, Ferrari and Force India, have been quicker over the second half of the season, but no-one has made serious inroads into Button's lead.

The guy who gets the most points wins. Simple as that. Button has more points and more wins than anyone. Just because he won early rather than a late-season charge doesn't devalue his potential win any more than Barrichello would not deserve a Championship for being slower than Button until Silverstone.
It's the same as the debate that any victory in football somehow isn't worthy unless it's one of the big teams, that a Portsmouth-Cardiff Cup final wasn't worthy of viewing because Manchester United or Chelsea weren't in it.

Celebrate the fact that a bloody hopeless team like Honda could, with a fair degree of luck in the form of that mercedes engine, can come to the fore. Thank God Ferrari haven't steamrollered everyone for the umpteenth time, and as I'm sure they will again soon.

Rant over...go and read some books about life before 1999.

[Ricardo F1]

screwing RB on pit stops even more,

Imaginary rabbits were a bitch too.

[Dolph]

Handling is adjusted to be competitive, maybe RB does not share like he did........and suddenly Jennie is now below average...way below.......

You actually believe this?

The way you mock another persons name like a child is a good indication of your judgment in any case...

[Jazza]

Bit like MS in 04. Dominated the first 2/3 of the season, then seeming forgot how to drive. This year, Button just forgot how to drive a little bit earlier...

Really, if he wins the championship no one will care in years to come about his slump. In fact, if he was to finish this year with a win or two, people will be saying he is one of the best out there. Champions always look great in the majorities eye.

[pgj]

It is not as though every race is the same throughout the season is it? Brawn has been strong at circuits where the weather has been hot. It is a complete nonsense to talk about 'tainted' championships. The competition is from the first race to the last race, with the winner being decided by the driver that accumulates the most points. By your 'tainted' logic there is every chance that Rindt's WDC would have been 'tainted' because he had a no points finish to the end of the season.

This thread is very thinly disguised JB bashing thread and remarks like 'Jenson sympathiser' do not cut it with me.

Another stupid thread.

[rsherb]

This thread will repeat itself many times, especially after he (hopefully) wins the Championship. If he doesn't win the Championship there will be many similar threads focusing on throwing a championship away, but the views and people holding the views will be the same.

For me, Jenson's perceived drop off in form is a combination of quite a few things, but I'll throw out a few:

- A driver defending a shrinking but reasonably comfortable points lead has more to loose, and consciously or subconsciously this will affect their approach to races. A driver chasing down a large points gap has less to loose and will typically start racing for more points, or fail trying.
- Button openly struggles a little more with a car that is twitchier at the back than Rubens, and also at generating tyre temp if ambient temps are down, both have been an issue in the 2nd half of the year.
- While the Brawn has lost some ground to the field, Rubens has found some improvements in the brakes relative to his early season, therefore his relative performance to Jenson has improved, BUT the Brawns dominating performance has gone.
- The Brawn can now only be classed as 'one of the best cars', depending on track, tyres, ambient temp/weather. This means it's easier to be the same or similar on overall pace to your teammate, but easier to get embroiled in battles with other cars, depending on a bad qualifying or a bad start, pit stop, etc. and end up looking like a bad race.

I wouldn't see the Championship as tainted whoever wins in. I'd be happiest if Jenson wins it, but would also be happy for Rubens. Vettel definitely has much potential in the future for Championships, but if he manages a huge point swing i the last 3 races, and Jenson and Rubens have a disastrous few races, then I would guess he deserves it also.

I don't see how the championship would be tainted whoever wins it, as long as they don't pull any Adelaide '94 or Jerez '97 type stunts.

What is unusual about this Championship is that the rule shakeup has given an early chance to some small teams (Brawn and Red Bull) and the usual players were left playing catch up. We're left with a Championship being contended between those early leaders, but they're now mixing it with the usual drivers who are out of the championship, but fancy the wins. I see this as more interesting, rather than tainted.

[Jay]

Celebrate the fact that a bloody hopeless team like Honda could, with a fair degree of luck in the form of that mercedes engine, can come to the fore.

Agree on this..

The rest of your post is a tad acidic for me to decipher.

I get your point, but...

[BMW_F1]

Jenson had a very dominant car for a great part of the season. We all know what he can do when his car is the best of the field - he delivers.. but when the car is no longer that dominant, as a driver, he does not make any difference. He becomes another Trulli..
I think there are so many drivers today that are better than him which essentially means that F1 is not about who the best driver is throughout the season but who has the best car throughout the season.. Last year for example Kubica was the best driver but he could not win because his car was not quick enough..

Edited by BMW_F1, 03 October 2009 - 15:31.

[Dalton007]

Button has been quite consistent in scoring points, though. There's a lot more to come from Button.

[RiDE]

If he wins the championship, it's not going to have an asterisk next to it indicating that he was outperformed by his teammate.

It's not the most glorious way to win a championship but it doesn't really matter at this point.

[P123]

Jenson had a very dominant car for a great part of the season. We all know what he can do when his car is the best of the field - he delivers.. but when the car is no longer that dominant, as a driver, he does not make any difference. He becomes another Trulli..
I think there are so many drivers today that are better than him which essentially means that F1 is not about who the best driver is throughout the season but who has the best car throughout the season.. Last year for example Kubica was the best driver but he could not win because his car was not quick enough..

That's the nature of the sport. The best drivers normally end up in the best cars though (Senna, Schumacher, etc). This year has just been an anomaly.

As for the topic, Button deserves the WDC 100%. He nailed it when his car was the class of the field. He may be limping over the line, but despite all the gifts he has handed out none of his pursuers have been able to significantly close the gap.

[djellison]

I am Jenson sympathizer, but don't you think Jenson's likely championship is tainted by the way he has been outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season?

No.

Alternative option - Barrichello wins despite being utterly dominated for the first half of the season.

Next question.

[roughage]

Jenson had a very dominant car for a great part of the season. We all know what he can do when his car is the best of the field - he delivers.. but when the car is no longer that dominant, as a driver, he does not make any difference. He becomes another Trulli..
I think there are so many drivers today that are better than him which essentially means that F1 is not about who the best driver is throughout the season but who has the best car throughout the season.. Last year for example Kubica was the best driver but he could not win because his car was not quick enough..

This is exactly what I mean, silly fanboys with their "expert" opinion. Formula One has always been a team sport, the combination of car and driver. Unless two drivers are in the same car you cannot compare them, other than by looking at their qualifying positions and points. By what measure was Kubica the "best" driver? Most Polish? Fastest in a BMW that isn't called Nick?

[BMW_F1]

That's the nature of the sport. The best drivers normally end up in the best cars though (Senna, Schumacher, etc). This year has just been an anomaly.

what does that anything do with what we are discussing here.. Button from what I know has never been in serious consideration by Ferrari or Maclaren . When Williams was a top team he was replaced. When Renault was a top team he was replaced.. This tells me a lot of about Button..

As for the topic, Button deserves the WDC 100%. He nailed it when his car was the class of the field. He may be limping over the line, but despite all the gifts he has handed out none of his pursuers have been able to significantly close the gap..

he does deserve it becase as I mentioned the WDC does not necessarily go to the best driver in the field I've been ok with that as it is the nature of F1. - more car /less driver..