474 replies to this topic

[Wolf]

Inspired by Keirs 'THE' thread, I've decided to squeeze as much stories about my all-time favourite driver from you as I can. And I'm talking about everything- from races, anecdodes, et all.
BTW, I hope not to spoil Massa Keirs holy quest for 1000, as their careers did not overlap, but they shared many opponents.

And here are some photos, just to start you talking.







copyright Moss

[jarama]

Wolf,

Great picture indeed, this one of SM with the Aston Martin taken at Goodwood...

[Wolf]

C'mon guys and gals. This thread almost slid off front page. I know there are lots of interesting stories around here. But how do I make you share them?

[Falcadore]

There was one where a boxer of some noteriety, not British National standard, but not quite international standard, unsure his name, hitched a ride into a town on a motorcycle into town from his broken down car. After a somewhat exhillarating ride the boxer said to the rider. "thanks very much, and you can tell your friends you gave a ride. To which the motorcyclist removed his helmet and said "And you can tell your friends you hitched a ride with Stirling Moss." The boxers reaction is either unrecorded or unremeberred by me.

[oldtimer]

OK Wolf, I'll try to get things rolling. I should be able to, since I saw quite a few of Moss' drives in the UK through the '50s and up to, and including, the fateful crash at Goodwood in 1962.

That day, in its own way, said so much about the man. He was driving a 1961/62 hybrid Lotus (am I allowed to mention the big business reasons why Rob Walker wasn't allowed to buy a '62 model for him?). After setting off at his all-out pace, he had to make a stop for mechanical reasons. He then set off a lap (or more?) behind.

Being SM, his pace was as furious as before. For why? Because he's SM.

He got onto the grass trying to pass Graham Hill, who was leading, and the rest is history and mystery. As far as I know, we will never know why he, the absolute master of recovery, continued across the grass at near undimished speed into the earth bank. We were still left with a great man, but we had lost a supreme talent.

My chance to get a better understanding of that supreme talent came at Goodwood at the 1957 Easter meeting. Train and bus had taken me to Goodwood for the practice session. They let me for free (hope Bernie's not reading this). Things were looking good!

For the 1st F1 session, I had walked about about a third of the way around the circuit to Fordwater. There, the cars were hidden from view until they came over the brow of a small incline. It was a beautiful spring day, birds in the hedge-rows singing. Then the cars were let out of the paddock. I hear an engine being taken through the gears on what sounds like full song, and a car bursts over the brow. The whole image seemed to say, "This is a Vanwall, and this is Stirling Moss driving it."

The rest followed, mostly on what seemed 3/4 throttle. The impression of Moss' total authority over his car seemed to me to be his hallmark. Perhaps other will be able to echo this feeling.

For the second F1 session, I walked back to Woodcote, the fastest corner on the circuit. Hey, they didn't stop me getting into the grandstand. I'd never had the money to view from a grandstand before, and now I was about to see what F1 driving was really all about.

Moss was out, using team-mate Tony Brooks as a pacemaker. You couldn't have better, with Brook's oh-so-consistent fast laps. The Vanwalls had a definite understeer characteristic, which suited Brooks just fine, but not Moss when he was in a REAL hurry. So, as he approached the 2nd apex of Woodcote, Moss threw the Vanwall onto full lock INTO the corner. Naturally, the car didn't like this, and the rear end immediately broke away, to be instantly corrected with full opposite lock. A puff of dust from the apex (as per the Aston Martin) and Moss is unwinding the steering as he clips the grass on the exit and lines the car up for the chicane, a small, but very solid brick affair.

The first viewing of these antics left me thinking, "You nearly lost it that time, lad." Wrong, because it was repeated for several consecutive laps. The speed at which Moss wound from lock to lock, with foot hard to the floor left me thinking very hard. This won him the pole,(but not the race - the Vanwall lost its throttle linkage).

After all this eye-popping activity, I went over to the paddock without a single piece of ID (Bernie, cry your eyes out). The Vanwall team had wheeled Moss' car away from prying eyes, but not Brooks'. A peek into the cockpit showed the tell-tale rev counter with 4-500rpm in hand. Brooks was 0.2 second slower than Moss, with no wheel winding whatsoever (of course). Interesting.

Well, this is a nostalgia column, so I'll carry on with what more peeking into the cockpit showed. A seat in the middle of a bunch of space frame tubes, situated above the massive gearbox/final drive unit. The driver sat with pannier fuel tanks alongside each leg, a drive-shaft to the gearbox between them. Just behind and below each elbow, a drive shaft to each rear wheel. Stark, stark, stark. Nice wood-rimmed steering wheel though, and the gun metal finish on the dashboard was well done.

Wolf, you also asked for a favourite story. This one from DSJ, whilst at the 1959 (pretty sure) Monaco GP. The Scarab was making one of its few appearances, and in some desperation they asked SM to give it a whirl to get a better idea of what was what. SM did a few laps, with times about 2 secs off the pace. Jenks reckoned that if they had put SM's seat into the Scarab, that would knock a second off his times. Then, if there was some decent prize money for pole, that would take off another second, and there you are.

Come on lads of the older variety, there's got to be lots more!

[David J Jones]

Nonsense

Hawthorn and Collins rule for ever !!!!!

OK

[Ray Bell]

I thought the Scarab made its European debut in 1960... is that right?

[jarama]

The Scarabs made his European debuts at Monaco '60, though Chuck Daig and Lance Reventlow did not qualify for the race.

[oldtimer]

"Pretty sure' is not good enough for Nostalgia Forum!

[Barry Boor]

I admire Moss as one of the best ever, but twice I have had contact with him, and twice I was snubbed......

[Wolf]

I belive to have seen that picture of Moss in Scarab somewhere on the net (Forix or Crosswinds)- I may have even downloaded it. It was definitely Monaco, but I'll upload it and show it.
Done. Voila.

[Bernd]

Barry, You probably had the misfortune to run into him on a couple of bad days. I ran into him at Adelaide in 1988 and he was very gracious, I think he was impressed that a 12 year old knew who he was

If only I had the brains back then to get an autograph

[Ray Bell]

I, too, spoke to him at Adelaide. He was with Phil Hill and both signed my 50-year History of the AGP book. No problems.
I think I spoke to him at Bathurst, too, when he did that race in the seventies, co driving with Jack, when they stalled on the grid and were rammed from behind.

[Wolf]

I remember Gunner reminiscing on how he has seen Moss snatching, during some endurance race, the Coke from hands of a spectator standing too close to the apex of a curve. That must have been a sight. BTW, what happened to Gunner- when I came from holliday, I noticed he didn't post anymore? Look what happens if you're left alone for just six weeks.

[Yves]

Hello every body,

It's my first post to this very interesting forum and I apologize for my english but will do my best to be understandable !

Moss was my hero and is still for me one of the very first driver of all ages
When I "entered" in F1 (1960-61), he was the only magic guy who can beat with a private car the unbeatable shark noses.

Fangio always denied he returned one victory to Moss in the british GP in 1955. Anything more about this ?

Y.

[Wolf]

Moss always said that Fangio did give him that win, but he thought too much of Fangio to ask him that.

[Wolf]

Just keeping this thread alive. Here's a bonus photo.

[Ray Bell]

Where were you when we had the threads on the Ferguson P99?
Both here and in Tech forum.

[oldtimer]

Thanks for the great P99 shot, Wolf!

I was at Aintree for the 1961 British GP. Rob Walker had entered Moss in the Lotus, and Jack Fairman in the Ferguson.

The rain was very heavy in the early laps and Moss was away, but even he got caught up in a 360 degree spin. Didn't touch the grass though...

Conditions improved, the Lotus died, and the shark-nose Ferraris took over the lead. All the while, Fairman was well back. For whatever reason, (be nice to know), Fairman was called in and Moss took over. He then began to lap at a similar pace as in the Lotus. There were reports that some teams hung out pit boards warning their drivers that SM was now in the Ferguson and not Fairman...

What intrigued me was to see Moss' immediate adaption to a totally different car. His line on through the corner we were viewing became quite different when he switched to the 4wd Ferguson.

Was there anything that man couldn't do in a race-car?

[Wolf]

As for Ferguson, before I came to this place I've never even heard of it (or Scarab, for that matter). I closely followed those threads, and later looked up those cars on Crosswinds (if I'm not mistaken shots of Moss in both of them hail from that site).
On the matter of Aintree, I've recently read (probably in one of Don's articles on '61 season) that he was black-flagged on Cooper's protest. Why on earth would he do that- I've heard he was rare enthusiast, and I was under impression that SCM was instrumental in Cooper's winning the title in '59?

[oldtimer]

Wolf, you've just jogged some more brain cells. I remember the black-flagging thing now. At the time there were hints over the Tannoy system that certain drivers could come unstuck thinking they were dealing with Fairman, but I guess we need a steward's knowledge for that.

Again, what SM was doing in the Ferguson, apart from enjoying himself, is another question.

Moss won the Portugese GP in Rob Walker's Cooper, I seem to remember. A lap ahead of the opposition....

[Wolf]

And there's a story I remember reading about him- taking pole on a track that was supposed to favour Lotus cars. When a journalist said something in a line - OK, but you were driving Lotus on a Lotus track, he got up, got into a Cooper and broke his own pole-sitting time.

[oldtimer]

Oh yes, and SM won the Italian in '59 too in Walker's Cooper, finishing on some very, but very, bald tyres with Phil Hill in pursuit.

But I can't think of a time when SM had access to a Cooper and a Lotus. Our host to the rescue, please.

In '58, Tony Vandervell got a bit bent when SM was putting in laps in Rob Walker's Cooper during practice at Monaco. The punishment was not being allowed to take over Brooks' Vanwall which went on to take pole. Brooks must have smiled to himself, because SM had first call on the best bits in the Vanwall team.

Oops. I've just looked into "All but my Life", and it does record SM finishing 1st in a Formula International Cooper, and 3rd in F1 in a Lotus at Goodwood in 1961.

More exciting, and something to rival THAT thread, is a Jesse Alexander picture of Moss in a 250F Maserati in a beautiful drift, 30 degrees or more to the track line AND with a very small touch of oversteer correction. Car number 30, but the book doesn't give any more details.

Now if we could get tha onto the site...

[Wolf]

Yes, I think I saw tat one in 'All but my life'. I know it's not the one you referred to, but the motiff is the same.

copyright by The Man himself

BTW, this is Real McCoy; no opposite lock- just drifting across the track.

[Mike Argetsinger]

Fairman made a really good start in the rain in the Ferguson but drove over some debris from an accident by Henry Taylor. Body work was damaged and a magneto lead trapped between the damaged bodywork and the chassis frame eventually chafed through and Fairman pitted with a misfire. When the problem was diagnosed and rectified Stirling (who had already retired the Walker Lotus with mechanical problems) was sent out in the car. But he received a push start from the mechanics and was disqualified. However he was allowed to continue running with the clear understanding that he could not qualify as a finisher. But Ferrari lodged a protest and Stirling was blackflagged. My source here is Michael Cooper-Evans in his 1993 biography of Rob Walker.

[oldtimer]

Thanks Mike. There's only so much you find out standing at the track-side.

[Mike Argetsinger]

I saw Moss drive on several occasions and to say he was something special is a gross understatement. He was pure magic. He was also the dominant personality off the track as well. He had star quality and magnetism like noone I have seen since. He epitomized racing to the world at large. When he entered a room the entire room would literally shift in his direction. Women were famously attracted to him and I have observed some very cool and sophisticated women become absolutely mesmerized by him and act like school girls - well like very grown up school girls I suppose I mean! He was a race promoters dream. He could (and did) attract a record crowd in a snow storm just by the announcement of his presence in a race. He drove everything and was always "on." He was the complete professional and yet he never lost his basic enthusiasm for the sport and was always ready to "have a go." He could be laps down after a long pitstop in an uncompetitive car and he would still go out and give top value. His peers held him in absolute esteem. He had, and still maintains, a completely unique personality and outlook on life. Stirling Moss is an original and we were lucky to know him. And we are so fortunate to still have him involved in our sport.

[Yves]

In 1957, Brabham has refused an offer from Rob Walker to drive for him. As a joke, Rob told him that as long as they will compete against each other, he will do every thing to beat him.
Two years later, as Rob congratulate Jack for his championship, he remind him about this, telling that he was very close to achieve that (unusefull reminder : Moss was second ;) ).
Jack Brabham replied : "2 years ago, I didn't know you will take Moss to do that".
(translated back to english from the french version of Cooper-Evans's book, "Private entrant").

Y.

[p][Edited by Yves on 11-09-2000]

[Ray Bell]

I believe the incident about the 'Lotus track' and using the Cooper was at Warwick Farm, where he had pole in the Lotus and the Cooper was marginally slower, and then he chose to race the Cooper.
Must have been 1962...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Mike Argetsinger
Fairman made a really good start in the rain in the Ferguson but drove over some debris from an accident by Henry Taylor. Body work was damaged and a magneto lead trapped between the damaged bodywork and the chassis frame eventually chafed through and Fairman pitted with a misfire. When the problem was diagnosed and rectified Stirling (who had already retired the Walker Lotus with mechanical problems) was sent out in the car. But he received a push start from the mechanics and was disqualified. However he was allowed to continue running with the clear understanding that he could not qualify as a finisher. But Ferrari lodged a protest and Stirling was blackflagged. My source here is Michael Cooper-Evans in his 1993 biography of Rob Walker.

I believe that Fairman was disqualified from an earlier pitstop, not when Moss took over, and that it was Charles Cooper who protested. moss was not impressed.

[MoMurray]

Following on from the earlier Barry Boor post, I am too young to have seen Moss in his glory years but even as a child I had a clear understanding of who he was and why he was significant. In the early eighties he returned to racing and took part in a touring car series in England. I had the pleasure of going to Donington to see a European F2 race (I was about 16) and he raced in one of the support events. Here was I, totally captivated with racing and with a good grasp of the historical significance of Stirling Moss so you can imagine my excitement when the opportunity to get his autograph presented itself. Being in awe of the man, I had no intention of engaging him in conversation or taking any more of his time than that required to write his name. The man could not have been ruder to me. I was crushed. He spoke to me as though I was some street urchin begging and he was too far above me in the social order of life to give me so much as common decency would demand. In other words he was prick (to me at least) and in my opinion he earned that title in the few seconds I spent in his company. Now I do not for a minute doubt his driving abilities or his stature as one of the greats but I am the kind of person who has to like his heroes and consequently I do not rate him on my list at all. Sorry if this does not sit well with some of the Moss fans but it is indeed a true story and has colored my opinion of SM and all celebrities since.

[Wolf]

Sorry to hear that Mo, I have pretty good idea how you must have felt at the time.
I've dug up another good photo, but in poor condition so I had to try to fix it to be, at least, in so-so condition. What say ye?

[oldtimer]

Mo, I visited SM's web-site; will I get a reply to my query on contacting Tony Brooks??

In contrast to your experience, one of my favourite pictures in 'Fangio' is of him signing an autograph for an English schoolboy. One big man and one small boy sharing a moment.

[Bernd]

Also sorry to hear that Mo, earlier in the thread myself and Ray told our positive experiences with Moss while Barry told a tale similar to yours, perhaps there is two sides to Stirling's character... Something to ponder.

[Mickey]

This looks like a good thread. Hopefully in a few months time it'll be as big as THE thread is now

I'd like to read some good stories of Moss at 1000 Miglia and Targa Florio. Didn't Moss take part to a 1000 Miglia with Jenks as his passenger?

[Wolf]

Yes, Mickey, he did. In '55, he won it in Mercedes 300SLR in all-time record time 10:07:48. He is reported to have, during practising for the event, crashed into Italian army truck full of live ammo. His subsequent attempts with Maserati have failed (in '56 his brakes locked and in '57 his run was ended after 7 1/2 minutes by flawed piece of metal used as a brake pedal). I belive his first run at Mille Miglia was in '52, yet St.Jenks did co-driving from '55 on.

[oldtimer]

Jenks wrote reports (a word that does no justice to them) of all 3 drives in MotorSport. The 1955 report was also published separately by MS.

Do some of them appear in the book on Jenks that was published after his death?

[MoMurray]

Thanks for your sympathies but I got over it Yes indeed jenks book "Jenks: A Passion for Motor Sport" does illuminate the 1955 Mille Miglia. And believe me as much as my opinion of Moss was soured by my early experience, the story of this race as written by DSJ from the passenger seat is absolutely enthralling. I rate this book as one of the best I have read and the chapter on this race as some of the best motoring prose ever. Sit in a quite corner of the house after the kids are gone to bed and the wife is...well lets just say elsewhere. Dim the lights to only what you need to read and the dive into this chapter (29 pages)and I challenge anyone not to feel as though they had witnessed the event themselves. As much as Fangio, Clark, Senna, Chapman, Murray, Head and Newey, Jenks is one of the great genious' of our chosen sport. As I write this post, I have retrieved my copy of Jenks from the shelf and I just may read it again this weekend.

Mo

[oldtimer]

Mo, now there's an interesting view of Jenks. For me, all I would have had without Jenks would be my limited viewing experiences. Even that's not totally true, because without his influence, I wouldn't have gone to Montreal to see Gilles, nor eventually make the pilgrimage to Spa in 1992.

Without Jenks, the rest would have been race results and lap speeds to me. Instead we have a grand story of giants and pigmies in their world of mechanical speed and noise.

Back to the thread! Wolf, thanks for the pics. Do you have one of SM in a works BRM at Silverstone, 1959, getting ready to land in the ditch? Or making his Vanwall do what it didn't want to at Silverstone in 1958?

[Barry Boor]

Perhaps I should explain in a little more detail the reasons why I consider myself to have been twice snubbed by the Great Man.

At the Coy's Festival in 1999, I obtained a great prize; S.M's autograph. Unfortunately, he took the book, signed it and handed it back without even looking around from the conversation he was having. I didn't expect a conversation, nor even a word, but a glance might have been nice.

Then, this year at Coy's again, having queued for 90 minutes in freezing cold weather, to get a dozen or so famous drivers, when I was 2 metres away from the first table (Watson, as I recall) all but 2 of the famous men got up and left. (To drive in a demonstration of old F1 cars, but 15 minutes earlier than we had been informed that they would leave.) There were some VERY disgruntled people there. I remained reasonably gruntled because the two that were left were SM and Jackie Stewart. I got to Stewart first and he carefully signed over a Michael Turner picture of his 1973 Nurburgring victory; I picked up my book, placed it on the table in front of Stirling, and as the book went down, the man got up from his chair, without a word, turned and left the area.

Pure co-incidence, I know, and it is obvious from other people's experiences that this may well be totally out of character, but to use an old English phrase -
speak as you find.........

[Wolf]

Well, I have limited resources (and HDD space), so I don't have many photos. Yet, here's one really happy winner:).



BTW, I hoped some of you might comment my last posted photo- how did the other drivers think of him wave them as he overtook them?

P.S. We managed to page 2. Way to go!

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by oldtimer
Do you have one of SM in a works BRM at Silverstone, 1959, getting ready to land in the ditch?

The front brakes had failed and he deliberately spun it The final picture shows moss climbing out of te car having failed to reverse it out of the ditch. An official is giving the thumbs up to medical staff opposite, but none of the crowd seem interested.


[p][Edited by Roger Clark on 11-11-2000]

[oldtimer]

Barry, your story rang a bell. Jenks once commented on SM's capacity to 'switch off' whilst in a social setting. That was before the accident.

Wolf, I bet Hawthorn didn't get the wave!

Roger, thanks for the pics, but they don't come up on my screen. What am I missing?

[Roger Clark]

oldtimer, the pics are alrght for me. can you still not see them?

[Barry Lake]

I don't get them either - which often is the case.
Perhaps the "rebuild" of Atlas F1 will fix these problems?

[Roger Clark]

Has anybody got any suggestions?

[Barry Boor]

The pics have made it through to Anglesey o.k, despite the floods!

[oldtimer]

All I get, and it takes a minute or two to load them, are 3 picture frames with red Xs in the middle. Right clicking and commanding "Show picture" makes the frame disappear. Bill Gates rules!

But I got Wolf's pictures

[Wolf]

Tere's the Ring drive in '61, I remember someone (most probably Ray) mentioning consistency of his lap times. If someone can add to this subject I would appreciate it. BTW, is there any site on Net that has such data (lap times, that is) since literature around here is pretty scarce (and buying them from overseas is quite expensive sport- price +p&p and then increase it by 25%). And I submit his pic in Lotus 18/21 at that race.


copyright by The Man himself

[Barry Boor]

What an absolutely fabulous picture. Thanks for posting it up, Wolf. Somehow pictures look better on the net than in books.

This was Stirling's second best race ever, I think. I rate Monaco that year just a little better because the pressure from the red cars was relentless. At the Ring, I seem to recall something about his tyres that gave him a little edge when it got damp, which it did for a time. I'm sure that if I'm wrong, someone will correct me.
But Monaco - there was genius at work - and for nearly 3 hours!