43 replies to this topic

[BRG]

Like many of my generation, I first took to the road on two wheels. I have always felt that this gave me a vital grounding and made me a safer car driver. On 2 wheels, you have to watch the road for hazards like dirt and mud, fuel spillage, drain covers and so on that you disregard in a car, and you have to watch the traffic carefully as well, if you are to survive. You learn to be careful with the brakes; a locked rear brake can have you off, as can excess speed in the corners.

So do these characteristics, which are all valuable for the racer, mean that a good motorcycle racer will also make a good car racer?

Thinking of those who moved from 2 to 4 wheels, John Surtees of course scored WCs in both sports and Mike Hailwood performed creditably in F1. Johhny Cecotto also did reasonably in F1 and has become a real touring car ace. Agostini did quite well in single-seaters, racing in the Aurora F1 series in UK. Steve Parrish has become a champion in truck racing. There have been a few other motorcycle racers in recent years in sports and touring cars, but no sign of another Surtees.

Were there any successful crossovers before Surtees? And have the top levels of 4 wheel racing become too specialised today to allow more Surteess (or even Cecottos)?

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"



[This message has been edited by BRG (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Keir]

I don't believe anyone before Surtees had much impact, but they say that Max Biaggi
has all the skills needed to run at the front in F1. The question is, will they give up their two-wheeled lifestyle to give cars a run??
I think it's more a matter of dollars, not skill.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Paul Hartshorne]

Didn't Nuvolari start his racing career on two wheels? Rosemeyer too I believe.
Geoff Duke may have made it eventually on four wheels, but never really had a chance to prove himself (if you believe Graham Gauld's comments in his book on Reg Parnell).

Hardly anyone ever mentions Damon Hill's early career in motorcycle racing. I remember well the first time I saw Damon racing (at Brands). It seemed really strange seeing that so-familiar helmet on a bike racer's head!

Best

[Dave Ware]

Nuvolari raced bikes; I read once that after and accident he won a motorcycle race in a full body plaster cast.

Bondurant, Ickx, and Siffert all raced motorcycles, although not to the extent that Surtees and Hailwood did. Perhaps it was the earlier generation's equivelent of karting, and a less expensive starting point. Bondurant did say that it taught you to race in close company with other machines.

Dave

[Don Capps]

Nuvolari was a splendid moto racer. In addition, how could anyone forget the Great Bernd Rosemeyer? A few other bikers who did well are Mike Hailwood, Joe Weatherly & Joe Leonard. Dan Gurney used to do bikes from time to time in the Cal desert races. Jean Behra is another name that comes to mind. Oh, how about Jenks? After all, he was a WC...

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Fast One]

I read in Cimarosti that Jean-Pierre Beltoise was a motorcycle racer as well. I hadn't known that.

[Dennis David]

Nuvolari, Varzi, Rosemeyer. After those three who else matters?



------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/



[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Fast One]

FJ, that's who. Sure like your three, though.

[Dennis David]

And a better supporter could one not have!

Can you imagine him and Clark on one team for 5 - 10 years? Leave Ferrari? He never should have left Lotus.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

I saw Fearless John in 1960 on both two & four wheels. I know that he left Team Lotus for a variety of reasons (being Fearless John doesn't necessarily cover racing in Lotus 18s which can elevate your religious beliefs rather quickly from a study of how many seemed to crash...), but I have often had thoughts along the same lines. Suppose FJ were to have stayed for the 1961 season, who would have been dropped? Clark? Ireland? Or would it have been a three car effort once again? It is not hard to imagine FJ and Clark wiping the boards clean from 1962 onward....


------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Fast One]

In his autobiography, Surtees said that Chapman came to him at the end of the '61 season and asked him who he wanted as his teammate from a list of names. John picked Clark, because they were pretty close at the time. Apparently, Innes came along later screaming that Chapman had promised him a ride, too. One can imagine Chapman also went to Jimmy with the same offer!!! Well, Innes was pretty darn good, but he was going to be the odd man out. Surtees, new to the cut throat world of Lotus, if not Formula 1, thought he wanted no part of the dirty dealing and told Chapman to count him out. The first of several bad decisions on teams that FJ made during his career. It didn't matter, either, because Innes still got the boot. I wish he had stayed at Lotus, because the two best drivers in the two best cars would have been something to see.

On the other hand, could Surtees have gotten along with Chapman? Would he have stood for driving cars that fell apart as often as they held together? Could Lotus have built more than one good car (they never did, did they?)? Besides, FJ is still alive, which is more than many Lotus drivers can say.

But they would have been a team...

[Ray Bell]

Was that full page photo in (I'm not sure now!) SCG/R&T/C&D of Gurney with the face full of leather mask for a desert bike race? It was a story about Daniel Sexton Gurney in about 1965/6/7.
I've seen Hailwood race bikes in Historic, F5000 for real - what struck me most was his clean down-through-the-box gearchanges for Creek Corner.
I don't think there was a natural progression from bikes to cars (as there is from karts), but that it was an avenue to follow from a crossroad. There were always more people raced bikes than cars, incredible as it may seem.
Somebody told me recently that there are scads of people who raced bikes before WW2 in Australian still breathing, while car racers are down to counting fingers and toes levels. Surprising, really.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Michael M]

I think it's worth to mention that a l l successful Auto-Union drivers had raced motorcycles before. Drivers without this experience had been unable to handle the rear-engined cars properly, bikers felt at home immediately. As far I know there was never a realistic explanation for this.

[Leif Snellman]

Thats correct. Auto Union drivers Rosemeyer, Müller, Meier and Kluge were all ex- motorcycle racers. "Schorch" Meier was even the current European motorcycle champion when he joined the team in 1939. And Mercedes driver Hermann Lang had been a German sidecar champion. The teams had to get their drivers somewhere and as there wasn't much of junior formula racing going on in Germany the teams searched among motorcycle racers instead.

------------------
Leif Snellman
The Golden Era of Grand Prix Racing
http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman

[Huw Jenjin]

i guess the Auto Union team managers had to find persons with a lack of imagination, and motr cycle racing would be the first place to look!
I would be pretty surprised if Carl Fogarty doesn't make the transition and blow em into the weeds.
I think the link is not really total fearlessness, but absolute balance and finesse on the limit. Looking through the list you see Ickx, Beltoise, Carriciolla....link....rain.
Graham Hill was involved in motor cycle scrambling before he got to cars. Bike racer Bill Ivy was pretty good in a car before he bit it.I note that Geoff Duke is described as not having much success, but I have seen some fairly impressive results.
I think Wurz was pretty good on two wheels.
Ever seen any one go the other way, four to two?

[Dennis David]

Caracciola didn't do a lot of bike racing if any. Lang on the other hand did but at first he was no good in the rain. Only through the intervention of Neubauer did he overcome his fear.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Roger Clark]

In the other direction, I believe that Jack Brabham once tried a works Honda bike. This would presumably be in 65 or 66 when the F2 Brabhams used Honda engines.

[Michael M]

it is correct that there had been no really lower categories in racing like today, so nearly anybody racing GP in those times started on motorcycles, because this was affordable. AU every year had one week "driver testing" (btw, Mercedes also), where they tested new talents, and while the "non-bikers" had extreme difficulties to handle the cars, and very often crashed them, the motorcyclists felt at home immediately already during the first laps.

[KzKiwi]

And dont forget Ken Kavanagh. He converted from 2 to 4 wheels!
Others include Pedro Lamy, Dieter Quester, Loiuis Rosier, Jody Scheckter, Both Rodriguez brothers, 'Seppi' Siffert, Taruffi, The Pampus Bull (must have been a big bike), Ron Flockhart, Clemente Biondetti, Mark Blundell and that little Frenchmen, the one and only Patrick Depailler.
I believe Frank Gardner used to race bikes too (over to you Ray).
Aaron Slight, the current Honda superbike rider also races cars in his off season down here in New Zealand - doesnt go too bad either.

[Ray Bell]

Frank Gardner was a surfer and made money boxing to pay for his racing... don't know about bikes (without looking it up), maybe Barry has some idea?
These days, of course, he talks like a bikie. But that could be the boxing coming through!

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

One most seem to have missed was that Damon Hill started his career on two wheels. His greatest fan Murray Walker was also a motorcycle racer. Gregg Hansford and Graeme Crosby made the transition from two wheel Grands Prix to touring cars pretty easily. Hansford claimed a Bathurst. Crosby's tin top career was way too short though. Kevin Schwantz has driven a lot of tin tops, NASCARs, V8Supercar, Super Tourers although never really been a front runner. Eddie Lawson tried Champ Cars for a couple of seasons and didn't impress. Barry Sheene tried a Peter Brock prepared Andy Rouse built Ford Sierra touring car once at Winton. And wrote it off.

Max Biaggi made a lot of noise enterring 500's after those 4 consec 250 titles, then got thrashed by Doohan at Honda, threw a hissy fit and went to Yamaha, and he's not the top Yamaha rider either, being beaten at the moment by McCoy and Checa. He seems to be having problems adjusting, or having problems with not being as competitive as he was on 500s. People rate him as a car racer, maybe the transition should happen sooner than he thought. But F1's? He can't cope pyschologically with the 500 scene how would he cope, say, with the politics of Ferrari?

[BRG]

Thinking a little laterally, both the rallying McRae brothers, Colin and Alistair, started off in motocross. So, I think, did their father Jimmy, who came only took up rallying later, which may be why he didn't have the international success and recognition that his talent deserved.



------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Darren Galpin]

Another driver forgotten here is Agostini (can't remember his first name) who raced in the British Aurora F1 series in the 1970s.

There is also Wayne Gardner, who is now racing Japanese GTs successfully.

[Ray Bell]

Wayne also raced Touring Cars in Australia for a few years, had his own team and won a couple of races..

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[karlcars]

He's on my mind at the moment, but I can't allow Alberto Ascari to be overlooked. He raced bikes from 1937 through 1939, scoring numerous successes, before starting car racing in 1940. Interestingly Bianchi considered building a special racing bike for him AFTER the war but this fell foul of squabbles in the boardroom.

Piero Taruffi is an important example, especially because this talented Rome engineer managed to keep car and bike careers going in parallel for some time.

[Ray Bell]

The winner of the Australian Grand Prix of 1948, Frank Pratt, drove a BMW 328... it was his first car race, although he had competed previously at a grass hillclimb or something. The relevant thing is that he had previously posted wins on both two wheels and three wheels, having competed on outfits too.

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[uechtel]

Time for a little quiz...

[David McKinney]

Bearing in mind the title of the thread, it must be Geoff Duke, probably at Berne

[uechtel]

51 Minutes...

[Patrick Fletcher]

OT a little [Four Wheels to Two wheels] ..... ex F5000 driver Bob Minouge is currently racing motorcycles at club level and going very well for a 63 year old, lapping Phillip Island at 1.48 during a race about a month ago.
Any others gone from cars to bikes?

[Vicuna]

Yes - at least one.

Hint - a photo of his Lotus 7 is featured in the Lotus 7 thread

[David McKinney]

Also loads of New Zealanders, especially speedway riders (Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, Geoff Mardon, Merv Neil, one of Frank Shuter's sons)
Tim Parker went back to racing motorcycles in historic events, and there must have been loads of others who have done likewise

[David McKinney]

Also loads of New Zealanders, expecially speedway riders (Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs, Geoff Mardon, Merv Neil, one of Frank Shuter's sons)

[llmaurice]

Tetsuya Harada ,the ex.factory Aprilia GP star and arch rival/team mate of Capirosi had his first motor race the other week according to Autosport.
Bernie Toleman ex-endurance racer who when "of age" turned to a bit of Classis Formula Ford has now corrected the error of his ways and returned to bikes ,managing the Jentin Team in British S/Bike.
Ian Ashley recently reversed the trend too by going sidecar racing.
Alex George (ex.factory F1 Honda rider ) has also gone to "cars " by running Red Rocket ,the recovery firm who also do the Recovery at Snettertons car meeting .
The late Macolm Templeton was of course a famous racing motorcyclist before racing his Lotuses and running an Alfa Romeo dealership in Northern Ireland.
Harald Ertl also combined the two disciplines
Looking at the pace of todays top level National bike series , it is hard to imagine any current racing drivers going "the other way " !

[T54]

I read in Cimarosti that Jean-Pierre Beltoise was a motorcycle racer as well. I hadn't known that.

Jean-Pierre Beltoise won 10 French motorcycle titles from 50cc to 500cc before eventually switching to car racing. Indeed JPB was a hero to an entire generation of French motorcycle racers and the principal reason of the resurgence of racing in France in the mid 1960's, including inspiring yours truly. JPB was at the time, a reporter for Moto Revue, doing much of the testing of new machinery as well as racing. Official for Bultaco and Kreidler, he was awsome on any track, both on the national and international level. Anyone lucky enough to remember his fantastic races on the 250cc Morini "Rebello" or on a G50 could only think of one other man on earth: Mike Hailwood.
JPB was as good as anyone in the world on a racing bike, and I mean ANYONE. Indeed, he would have been a potential world champion if not hired by the emerging MATRA Sports concern, which forced him out of bike racing after his last race in Pau that ended in a nasty crash against a kerb, but fortunately with no consequenses on a convalescent JPB after the horrid crash at Reims a few months earlier.
As far as his performances in racing cars, I guess he has little to prove, but it might be time for someone to tell it like it was about his racing bike career.

T54

[Simpson RX1]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Another driver forgotten here is Agostini (can't remember his first name) who raced in the British Aurora F1 series in the 1970s.

That would be the great Giacomo Agostini, multi World 500 Champion in the late 60's/early 70's. Ago was around in the era immediately after Big John and before the the mid 70's 'household name' era of folk like Barry Sheene and Kenny Roberts, and was a contemporary of the likes of Mike Hailwood and multi IOM TT winner Phil Read.

IIRC, Ago came to car racing after he had retired from bikes and so was probably a bit past his best............he was a genius on a bike, who knows how good he might have been in a car if he'd taken it up a bit earlier.

I was also interested to see in other posts how many Speedway riders had a go at cars........back in the 70's I was an avid Speedway fan and have very fond memories of watching the great spectacle of the likes of Ronnie Moore and Barry Briggs hammering round Plough Lane, Wimbledon.

I was vaguely aware of Ronnie Moore racing cars Down Under (I was also aware that he suffered brain damage after a big crash in a Speedway demo run, I wonder if our Australasian friends could tell me if the Great Man is still with us?), but didn't know Briggo had also had a go.

Somewhere deep in my memory, I have legendary Kiwi Speedway Champ Ivan Mauger racing cars back home during the Speedway close season, and also American pin-up Bruce Penhall finding his way into cars at some point.............can anyone confirm or deny?

[David McKinney]

Ronnie Moore didn't race much in NZ, but had three fairly full European seasons, one in a bob-tailed Cooper sportscar and two in an F2 Cooper, with a successful South African campaign in the midst of it all. AFAIK he's still with us (aged 72).
I cheated a bit with Briggo - he did a handful of races around 1960 in a DKW saloon.
I'm pretty sure Ivan Mauger never tried four wheels, at least not in public.

[Simpson RX1]

Thanks for that David, for some reason I had Ronnie racing the equivalant of dirt oval Sprint cars in exhibitions, both in New Zealand and Australia, but my knowledge of Speedway riders generally stops at Speedway!

Glad to know he's still with us by the way, I know he made an appearance over here a few years back to re-open (for the umpteenth time) Wimbledon Speedway track, but by all accounts he was but a shadow of his former self, so I'm glad I wasn't there.........I would much prefer to remember him as one of the best riders I ever saw grace a shail oval...........

[Stefan Ornerdal]

My swedish elite league speedway team, where I am webmaster, has a new team manager for this season. His name is John Shand, a New Zealander, married to a swedish woman.
While still in New Zealand, not so long ago, he had some sort of motorcycle business, and one of his employees was Ronnie Moore!

John told me that Ronnie looks fully fit, but his memory is failing badly. He does not always know where he is, where he has been and where he is bound to. A rather sad story.

Olle Nygren had a season in Formula Junior, 1962 if I remember right. He won the big race in Helsinki, Finland and he drove his FJ car in some non-championship F1-races.

Ove Fundin had a season in Swedish Formula Vee. 1966?

Bjorn Knutsson (World Champion 1965) is driving a Chevron B23 in historical races. At least he did 10 years ago.

Trevor Blokdyk was South African Speedway Champion before taking to four wheels.

Oliver and Stan Hart, father and son, was speedway riders before joining the F2 brigade in the late fifties.

George Andersson was a good speedway rider nationally in Sweden. Then he changed his name to George Duneborn, and teamed up with Picko Troberg in FJ.

Peo Soderman, a stalwart in British and Swedish speedway in the 50's and 60's was Swedish Champion on ice in a BMC Cooper S.

I am sure, there are others...

Never heard of Ivan Mauger racing on 4 wheels.

Stefan

[Macca]

Originally posted by Fast One
In his autobiography, Surtees said that Chapman came to him at the end of the '61 season and asked him who he wanted as his teammate from a list of names. John picked Clark, because they were pretty close at the time. Apparently, Innes came along later screaming that Chapman had promised him a ride, too. One can imagine Chapman also went to Jimmy with the same offer!!! Well, Innes was pretty darn good, but he was going to be the odd man out. Surtees, new to the cut throat world of Lotus, if not Formula 1, thought he wanted no part of the dirty dealing and told Chapman to count him out. The first of several bad decisions on teams that FJ made during his career. It didn't matter, either, because Innes still got the boot. I wish he had stayed at Lotus, because the two best drivers in the two best cars would have been something to see.

On the other hand, could Surtees have gotten along with Chapman? Would he have stood for driving cars that fell apart as often as they held together? Could Lotus have built more than one good car (they never did, did they?)? Besides, FJ is still alive, which is more than many Lotus drivers can say.

But they would have been a team...

I believe Ireland had a year to run on his contract for 1961, which he showed to Surtees; Chapman tried to duck the issue by saying he would 'place' Ireland with a customer Lotus team, maybe UDT - which ironically is where Ireland ended up anyway.

Couple of names not mentioned: Stuart Graham, who is of course the only man to win a TT on both two and four wheels (admittedly totally different events - Silverstone as opposed to the Mountain course on the IoM); and Bob Anderson..................who was slated by Phil Read in his autobiography for not being sufficiently aware of other riders IIRC, and also by Graham Hill for not using his mirrors in F1 in 1965.


Paul M

[petefenelon]

> On the other hand, could Surtees have gotten along with Chapman?

Ultimately, no, I don't think so. Surtees fancied himself as an engineer; Chapman wanted feedback from his drivers, not engineering suggestions. As Surtees grew more confident on four wheels I think Chunky would've seen him as a threat on the engineering side.... Jimmy could tell Colin what the car was doing and how it felt, but didn't seem to say how to fix it - John would've been in there trying to tell the mechanics what to do.

The Surtees-Parkes conflict at Ferrari seemed to be as much down to Parkes being an engineer who fancied himself as a driver and Surtees being a driver who fancied himself as an engineer as anything else.....

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Macca

Stuart Graham, who is of course the only man to win a TT on both two and four wheels (admittedly totally different events - Silverstone as opposed to the Mountain course on the IoM

...apart from Freddie Dixon and Charlie Dodson ;)

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Macca


Bob Anderson..................who was slated by Phil Read in his autobiography for not being sufficiently aware of other riders IIRC, and also by Graham Hill for not using his mirrors in F1 in 1965.


Paul M

Perhaps a touch of sour grapes from Mr Read, who I seem to recall was not always held in high esteem by some of his peers. And didn't he have a go at the four wheeld stuff himself, with not too much in the way of success?

Bob A himself was another ex-works Lotus driver in the F Junior days, and at least one of the reasons he left the team was because of disagreements with Chunky. As Bob was very much his own man and not one to be shoved around, it's hardly surprising.

[paulhooft]

did anyone already mention Jean Behra???