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Jenson and Lewis Scorecard 2010 [merged]


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#23851 bauss

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:50

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 15:32, said:

you are missing some facts out heikki did have a gearbox problem in q2 thats why he didn't get into q3 and buttons last run in abu dhabi quali was doomed from the of with the traffic between the ferraris and rosberg and then he made a mistake on that lap so we didn't get a proper look of his speed in q3 probably 2 tenths slower than lewis anyway if he got a proper lap


:lol: :lol: you are relentless. I cant remember Jenson having any traffic issues nor complaining about them (u got a link?).... as for the laps, Lewis didnt have a perfect lap either

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#23852 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:52

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 14:32, said:

you are missing some facts out heikki did have a gearbox problem in q2 thats why he didn't get into q3 and buttons last run in abu dhabi quali was doomed from the of with the traffic between the ferraris and rosberg and then he made a mistake on that lap so we didn't get a proper look of his speed in q3 probably 2 tenths slower than lewis anyway if he got a proper lap


http://news.bbc.co.u...lts/8499387.stm


First Practice results:
Lewis Hamilton 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:43.369
Jenson Button 1 McLaren-Mercedes 1:43.785

Lewis Hamilton 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:40.888
Jenson Button 1 McLaren-Mercedes 1:42.132

Lewis Hamilton 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:41.484
Jenson Button 1 McLaren-Mercedes 1:41.578

Lewis Hamilton 2 McLaren-Mercedes 1:40.335 1:41.119 1:39.425
Jenson Button 1 McLaren-Mercedes Q1 1:40.877 Q21:40.014 Q31:39.823

I don't think, firstly for two reasons. One Button never really was anywhere near lewis during the practice times. Except in FP3 where lewis was sandbagging ( just look as his FP 2 time) and in Q2 where Lewis kept having his lap messed up, by both Massa and Webber, and just sacraped through. In the last bit of Q3 lewis, i think he was slightly slower in in the middle sector, so could have got a faster time.

The second reason is that sector3 is where lewis seemed to have the advantage over the reast of the field particularly over the chicanes at the end, until Vettel caught on. Button i think was nowhere near as mighty in that sector.

Edited by Kvothe, 21 January 2011 - 14:57.


#23853 zack1994

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:54

bauss, on Jan 21 2011, 14:50, said:

:lol: :lol: you are relentless. I cant remember Jenson having any traffic issues nor complaining about them (u got a link?).... as for the laps, Lewis didnt have a perfect lap either

He did have traffic issues with the ferraris and rosberg which meant his tyre temperatures must have went down because before his mistake at the end of the lap he was on a bad lap anyway

#23854 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:56

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 14:48, said:

always driving within himself thats rubbish the mistakes in oz, china,malaysia and korea are mistakes because he is pushing thats pretty obvious, Also this thing about the 2010 car being less suited to lh than previous years, how many times did lewis say that the 2010 car was the best car he had driven around a circuit, also who do you think struggled with the car more this year jb or lh


Do not confuse struggling and coping. They both stuggled at times for example Korea where they were both overtaken by the respected mercedes at the same time. the big difference is that Lewis can cope better and get more performance from it. Jenson for whatever reason was less able to quote.

What was lewis going to say? 'ever since the introduction exhaust blown diffuser the car has been s***e

#23855 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:59

Kvothe, on Jan 21 2011, 15:56, said:

Do not confuse struggling and coping. They both stuggled at times for example Korea where they were both overtaken by the respected mercedes at the same time. the big difference is that Lewis can cope better and get more performance from it. Jenson for whatever reason was less able to quote.

What was lewis going to say? 'ever since the introduction exhaust blown diffuser the car has been s***e

The Mercedes at Korea don't really count, as they were the only cars on full-wet setups on a grid where the rest were on wet-dry or full-dry setups. I genuinely believe Rosberg would have won that race if it weren't for the contact with Webber.

#23856 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:59

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 14:54, said:

He did have traffic issues with the ferraris and rosberg which meant his tyre temperatures must have went down because before his mistake at the end of the lap he was on a bad lap anyway


Alonso also on cold tyres, the same situation as Jenson and an arguable slower car, still pulled out a faster time then Button could manage. I remember being surprised that he qualified fourth.

#23857 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 14:59

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 14:48, said:

always driving within himself thats rubbish the mistakes in oz, china,malaysia and korea are mistakes because he is pushing thats pretty obvious, Also this thing about the 2010 car being less suited to lh than previous years, how many times did lewis say that the 2010 car was the best car he had driven around a circuit, also who do you think struggled with the car more this year jb or lh


Commas dude :up:

Yep well when he pushes he's more likely to make mistakes, was my point.

Lewis is always nice about the car. He still said it understeered too much, but all the cars did. If the 2011 cars are pointier, that's going to be better for Lewis.

Jense didn't really struggle with the car, it was the same car, but all the losing teammates up and down the grid have 'issues' with their tyres, cars, setups, whatever. As soon as they admit the simple truth that they're slower than their teammate, it's all over for them. So there's always another dawn, something that's gonna be different next time.

#23858 zack1994

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:01

kvothe well in the first run in q3 jb was 2 tenths slower than lewis so if he got a proper final run he would've about two tenths slower aswell

#23859 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:01

HopkinsonF1, on Jan 21 2011, 14:59, said:

The Mercedes at Korea don't really count, as they were the only cars on full-wet setups on a grid where the rest were on wet-dry or full-dry setups. I genuinely believe Rosberg would have won that race if it weren't for the contact with Webber.


sorry i did not clarify my point fully, i meant to draw attention their tyres and brake issues, which were noticable because i could see and even brundle and legard could see how tentatively lewis was driving, and after watching silverstone 2008 i know it was not his fault

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#23860 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:04

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 15:01, said:

kvothe well in the first run in q3 jb was 2 tenths slower than lewis so if he got a proper final run he would've about two tenths slower aswell


i appreciate what you're saying but that is an assumption.
Fact: Lewis went faster,
Fact: Jenson not as much as Lewis.

As was evident from many of the qualifying sessions, sometimes it was the first run in Q3 that produced the faster time, and considering the Q3 times relative to all the other times, there is just no justification for that statement.
Apologies if i'm taking up the thread, just major procrastination from uni work :wave:

#23861 tkulla

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:09

hotstickyslick, on Jan 21 2011, 14:41, said:

On the contrary if McLaren do build the fastest car then Hamilton wouldn't have to attempt risky overtaking moves to try and finish ahead of fundamentally faster cars like he had to last year. Let's not forget either that Hamilton had four non-scores to Button's three last year and Hamilton was still over a race win's worth of points ahead of his teammate.

Tbh I'm surprised that you have such unrealistic views between the two.


Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).

Edit: typo

Edited by tkulla, 21 January 2011 - 15:10.


#23862 hotstickyslick

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:14

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 15:09, said:

Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).

Edit: typo

So what do you think Hamilton's potential is when he's in a car that completely suits his preferences?

#23863 zack1994

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:20

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 14:59, said:

Jense didn't really struggle with the car, it was the same car, but all the losing teammates up and down the grid have 'issues' with their tyres, cars, setups, whatever. As soon as they admit the simple truth that they're slower than their teammate, it's all over for them. So there's always another dawn, something that's gonna be different next time.

jb had tyre temperatures problems in quali at silverstone, korea and china, you can't lie about that the engineers can see it on the telementry, I dont go with the theory that if your slower than your teamate you make up problems with the car and thats why your slower because if that is the case then jb would have complained in quali at spa, singapore, spain, abu dhabi and canada but didn't, he complains when he isn't happy with the car as simple as that.

#23864 zack1994

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:23

Kvothe, on Jan 21 2011, 15:04, said:

i appreciate what you're saying but that is an assumption.
Fact: Lewis went faster,
Fact: Jenson not as much as Lewis.

As was evident from many of the qualifying sessions, sometimes it was the first run in Q3 that produced the faster time, and considering the Q3 times relative to all the other times, there is just no justification for that statement.
Apologies if i'm taking up the thread, just major procrastination from uni work :wave:

They both got another run, i know that but jb didn't get a good go at his lap because of the traffic.

Edited by zack1994, 21 January 2011 - 15:24.


#23865 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:23

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 15:09, said:

Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).

Edit: typo


true, but i also think certain people also have one in regards to Hamilton. If they have a good car that can be easily handled, sure i see no reason for Jenson to go up another level. But why not the same for Lewis. I hear a lot of praise that when the car is not right, Hamilton can probably beat button, but when it is just right, Jenson can match him. What proof is there for any such assertions. What if Lewis is also being held back by the car set up, and as i mentioned earlier in the a post, is better able to cope with it, because he is just better. Not by a great margin, but by a margin. A margin even Button admits:

Hungary GP: where did Lewis find 5 tenths from?
Abu Dhabi: where he said that Lewis is one of the best drivers ever or something along those lines.

personally it is my opinioon that given a great car Lewis will still win and will be even more impressive, whatever you want to say he matched Alonso in the same car in his rookie year, i could never see Button emulating such a feat.
Strategy? Jenson waas forced to make two decisions in china and malaysia because of destroying his tyres that were more lucky calls then anything else. His one true bright spark was in Monza, but as shown in japan with the hard tyres he does not always make the best calls. Also you forget Lewis has gained more experience, i am sure strategy wise he will be more then a match for Button.
Consistency? Nope lewis was unlucky with the mechanical failures he had, more then in the rest of his career i think, and any mistakes were more about trying to keep up with the clearly faster other cars, and to try and win. Given a faster car this wouldn't be an issue. Sure he may have a brainfade moment but i believe he has improved his driving year on year and given a good car he would not have to push so hard.

Every argument you use for jenson can also be used for Lewis .

Edited by Kvothe, 21 January 2011 - 15:28.


#23866 Kvothe

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:26

zack1994, on Jan 21 2011, 15:23, said:

They both got another run, i know that but jb didn't get a good go at his lap because of the traffic.


Neither did Alonso.......

#23867 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 15:50

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 15:09, said:

Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).


Well if we consider driver speed as entailing the ability to put the car close to its physical limit, making inputs that are as close as possible to the theoretical ideal, then Lewis does that better, surely. Whatever it may be - squaring the corner, braking late, carrying speed in or out - his inputs are more accurate and more versatile.

JB guides his car into the corner with a single movement of the wheel, typically, without making adjustments, and that is great to watch and impressive, but it necessarily requires more of a margin for error than an entry in which both ends of the car are being steered and constant little corrections are being made.

So I agree that a car like the Red Bull, say, with its rock solid back end, will let Jense go a lot faster than a nervous car, still that fundamental difference will be there, that his technique demands a bigger margin of error.

So I see the speed difference as quite fundamental. And in the same way it's that inflexible technique that prevents Jenson from managing his tyre temperatures sometimes.

On the tightening up, sportspeople who tighten up keep tightening up I'd say. They may learn to do it less, but the tendency is always there. Well they all do it a bit, but doing it badly once makes a repeat more likely not less. And Lewis is fundamentally more confident than JB, look at their faces at the end of that video just posted of them driving Valencia with their eyes closed.

#23868 as65p

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 16:14

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 16:50, said:

On the tightening up, sportspeople who tighten up keep tightening up I'd say. They may learn to do it less, but the tendency is always there. Well they all do it a bit, but doing it badly once makes a repeat more likely not less. And Lewis is fundamentally more confident than JB, look at their faces at the end of that video just posted of them driving Valencia with their eyes closed.


Between Hamilton and Button it's not even a contest who of the two gets the shakes when crunch time nears. Button had serious car/tyre related issues in the 2nd half of his WDC season (which is a bit of a weakness in itself, no doubt) but despite it he delivered comfortably. Whereas Hamilton had 3 goes at the title (which is of course a compliment in itself) but each of those three times he looked like a nervous wreck in the last races.

#23869 as65p

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 16:16

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 16:09, said:

He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).


This. Amazing still how many people fall for Hamiltons gung-ho talk and playing tough to the audience, while it's totally obvious the on track action paints the exact opposite picture.

#23870 ArtShelley

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 16:25

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 23:09, said:

Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).

Edit: typo


That's a very roundabout way of saying that the easier a car is to drive, the easier it is to approach that car's limit. You're quite correct, that Jenson is not a terrible driver and can approach the limits of a good car. The difficulty is approaching the limits of a bad car.

#23871 Bonaventura

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 16:44

hotstickyslick, on Jan 21 2011, 16:14, said:

So what do you think Hamilton's potential is when he's in a car that completely suits his preferences?

The problem is, we've never seen Lewis in a "perfect" car for him
But like some of the races of Lewis show, if the car & the circuits are fitting
than he is unbeatable (Canada 2007, 2010, Hungary 2009, Silverstone 2008) this are the races when he's "on" it
Lewis is (sometimes) able to reach this "different level" from wich Senna once spoke
Lewis has admitted in one of his interviews he had experienced this "level" a few times

If Lewis once gets a car which suits him 100% and which is faster than the rest, I think we would see some races like Silverstone 08
and if the car was really to Lewis likings, Button would have no chance

Edited by Bonaventura, 21 January 2011 - 17:45.


#23872 Bonaventura

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 16:48

as65p, on Jan 21 2011, 17:14, said:

Between Hamilton and Button it's not even a contest who of the two gets the shakes when crunch time nears. Button had serious car/tyre related issues in the 2nd half of his WDC season (which is a bit of a weakness in itself, no doubt) but despite it he delivered comfortably. Whereas Hamilton had 3 goes at the title (which is of course a compliment in itself) but each of those three times he looked like a nervous wreck in the last races.

Button had the same chance on the title like Lewis had last season
what is his excuse 2010?


#23873 bauss

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 17:42

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 16:09, said:

Unrealistic? I think a lot of people on this board are assuming that Hamilton's performance ceiling is higher than Button's. I suspect that this isn't true at all. Given a great car I think it's possible that Button beats Hamilton based on outright speed and not through strategy or reliability. Hamilton's advantage over Button (and it's a big advantage) is that he can get closer to his ceiling even if the car isn't quite right. Button needs the car to be in a narrow window for him to get real close to his max. If McLaren makes a car as good as the Red Bull was this year, we could see Button at the level he showed at the beginning of 2009 (before the tyre warm up problems that Brawn never did solve). As for him tightening up that year, he's admitted as much - which is why it's quite unlikely that he would experience that again. He's the driver most comfortable in his own skin these days (yes, moreso than Hamilton whose confidence strikes me as false bravado at times - natural for someone his age).

Edit: typo


there are a number of races where the car was alright after China where he simply got beat.

the thing is, there is no perfect car, just a relatively great car.... had Newey not come up with the EBD, the 25 would probably be a WCC and WDC winner right now, and be referred to as fairly great car.

Undersquare's theory make alot of sense.... you get the feeling that even with a more stable or planted car, Lewis will still find a way to look "untidy" in it by always trying to live at its limits.

I sense when all is well with both drivers, Jenson will simply be close by on pace a.l.a Spain, Monaco, Turkey, Canada, Valencia etc

A long winded way of saying "Yes, Lewis' performance ceiling is higher than Buttons".

Edited by bauss, 21 January 2011 - 17:43.


#23874 zack1994

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 17:49

Bonaventura, on Jan 21 2011, 16:44, said:

The problem is, we've never seen Lewis in a "perfect" car for him
But if some of the races of Lewis show, if the car & the circuits are fitting
than he is unbeatable (Canada 2007, 2010, Hungary 2009, Silverstone 2008) this are the races when he's "on" it
Lewis is (sometimes) able to reach this "different level" from wich Senna once spoke
Lewis has admitted in one of his interviews he had experienced this "level" a few times

If Lewis once gets a car which suits him 100% and which is faster than the rest, I think we would see some races like Silverstone 08
and if the car was really to Lewis likings, Button would have no chance

my opinion is if you put them in the same car with perfect balance for each driver it would be very close, just to say jb has had races were he was unbeatable 09 malaysia 09 turkey 09 bahrain if they can both find that perfect balance next year we would be in for a treat

#23875 mlsnoopy

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 17:50

as65p, on Jan 21 2011, 17:14, said:

Between Hamilton and Button it's not even a contest who of the two gets the shakes when crunch time nears. Button had serious car/tyre related issues in the 2nd half of his WDC season (which is a bit of a weakness in itself, no doubt) but despite it he delivered comfortably. Whereas Hamilton had 3 goes at the title (which is of course a compliment in itself) but each of those three times he looked like a nervous wreck in the last races.


The funny thing is that Hamilton in the end of the season still has a chance to win the title where as his team mates were already out of the fight.

#23876 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 18:15

mlsnoopy, on Jan 21 2011, 17:50, said:

The funny thing is that Hamilton in the end of the season still has a chance to win the title where as his team mates were already out of the fight.


Yup, various things may have gone wrong for Lewis but he's always stayed fast right to the end, in all three years he's been in contention. With Jense and Webbo for example they simply lost speed, Jense 14th on the grid in Brazil when his teammate was on pole, Webber 5th when his teammate was on pole.

#23877 tkulla

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 18:31

ArtShelley, on Jan 21 2011, 16:25, said:

That's a very roundabout way of saying that the easier a car is to drive, the easier it is to approach that car's limit. You're quite correct, that Jenson is not a terrible driver and can approach the limits of a good car. The difficulty is approaching the limits of a bad car.


Not really what I'm getting at though. Some drivers primary strength is adaptability. They can get in anything and drive it fast. A great skill, but it becomes less valuable the better the car is. A good example of someone that exceled in lesser machinery is Fisichella. Fisi managed to pull out great races here and there when in midfield cars, and dominated his teammates in such cars. But when he had his chance in the class of the field he was nowhere (yes, he had Alonso as his teammate - but note that Fernando is a guy that knows exactly what he wants from a car).

Now before the screaming starts I'm not comparing Lewis to Fisi. Lewis has proven he can win a championship and can drive a good car fast. But the very adaptability that is such an asset will still be diminished the better the car gets. And Button's narrow window becomes an asset, as he knows exactly how he wants the car and with a great car it won't be difficult for him to fine tune it.

A great example of this is Schumacher. A guy with great skill but with a very specific needs from the car. When he had the car to meet those needs he was untouchable. Very quick drivers like Irvine and Rubens couldn't get near him. Last year the car couldn't meet those needs so he totally lost that advantage.

Now back to our guys. Jenson knows exactly what he wants. But Lewis could very well run into the problem of not really knowing what works for him best. He can drive it fast no matter how you set it up (within reason, of course) so he and the engineers have much less to go on when it comes to direction. This is where Button could get a leg up on Hamilton.

If Jenson finds the zone, Lewis could surely copy his setup if he wanted to, but this isn't likely to work either. As good as he is at driving using various styles, he's not going to out-smooth Button.

That said, this all requires a very specific set of circumstances, and even if it happens exactly as I'm suggesting that doesn't mean that will be a lot in it. Lewis is so strong in Q that he can still take the fight to Jenson, and he will have his tracks like Canada where he just finds speed others don't seem to find.

I hope McLaren builds the rocketship we're all hoping for and we'll find out if my hypothesis holds water. I also wants to see how Hamilton reacts to being beaten on speed (instead of by guile). He's like the undefeated boxer that has never been knocked down - you don't really know how he'll react to it until it happens (and sooner or later it always does).




#23878 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 18:46

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 18:31, said:

Now back to our guys. Jenson knows exactly what he wants. But Lewis could very well run into the problem of not really knowing what works for him best. He can drive it fast no matter how you set it up (within reason, of course) so he and the engineers have much less to go on when it comes to direction. This is where Button could get a leg up on Hamilton.

If Jenson finds the zone, Lewis could surely copy his setup if he wanted to, but this isn't likely to work either. As good as he is at driving using various styles, he's not going to out-smooth Button.
I also wants to see how Hamilton reacts to being beaten on speed (instead of by guile).- you don't really know how he'll react to it until it happens (and sooner or later it always does).


Lewis had a good car, with Alonso's setups, for the first 7 races of 2007.

And he was also beaten on speed many times in 2007, he said things like "he had the pace on me".

#23879 gricey1981

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 18:53

Hamilton may get beaten by speed but come on its not going to be Jenson that does it. Look at qualifying last year. He was trounced completely. Jenson's chances come with a bit of luck, intelligence and the near certainty of Lewis having at least one brain fade in the season.



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#23880 Lights

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 18:54

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 19:15, said:

Yup, various things may have gone wrong for Lewis but he's always stayed fast right to the end, in all three years he's been in contention. With Jense and Webbo for example they simply lost speed, Jense 14th on the grid in Brazil when his teammate was on pole, Webber 5th when his teammate was on pole.

If you say it like that, Button indeed simply lost speed by being 14th on the grid. But you know it's wrong, why claim it.

#23881 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 19:01

Lights, on Jan 21 2011, 18:54, said:

If you say it like that, Button indeed simply lost speed by being 14th on the grid. But you know it's wrong, why claim it.


Wrong in what sense?

#23882 bauss

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 19:25

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 19:31, said:

Not really what I'm getting at though. Some drivers primary strength is adaptability. They can get in anything and drive it fast. A great skill, but it becomes less valuable the better the car is. A good example of someone that exceled in lesser machinery is Fisichella. Fisi managed to pull out great races here and there when in midfield cars, and dominated his teammates in such cars. But when he had his chance in the class of the field he was nowhere (yes, he had Alonso as his teammate - but note that Fernando is a guy that knows exactly what he wants from a car).

Now before the screaming starts I'm not comparing Lewis to Fisi. Lewis has proven he can win a championship and can drive a good car fast. But the very adaptability that is such an asset will still be diminished the better the car gets. And Button's narrow window becomes an asset, as he knows exactly how he wants the car and with a great car it won't be difficult for him to fine tune it.

A great example of this is Schumacher. A guy with great skill but with a very specific needs from the car. When he had the car to meet those needs he was untouchable. Very quick drivers like Irvine and Rubens couldn't get near him. Last year the car couldn't meet those needs so he totally lost that advantage.

Now back to our guys. Jenson knows exactly what he wants. But Lewis could very well run into the problem of not really knowing what works for him best. He can drive it fast no matter how you set it up (within reason, of course) so he and the engineers have much less to go on when it comes to direction. This is where Button could get a leg up on Hamilton.

If Jenson finds the zone, Lewis could surely copy his setup if he wanted to, but this isn't likely to work either. As good as he is at driving using various styles, he's not going to out-smooth Button.

That said, this all requires a very specific set of circumstances, and even if it happens exactly as I'm suggesting that doesn't mean that will be a lot in it. Lewis is so strong in Q that he can still take the fight to Jenson, and he will have his tracks like Canada where he just finds speed others don't seem to find.

I hope McLaren builds the rocketship we're all hoping for and we'll find out if my hypothesis holds water. I also wants to see how Hamilton reacts to being beaten on speed (instead of by guile). He's like the undefeated boxer that has never been knocked down - you don't really know how he'll react to it until it happens (and sooner or later it always does).


its a fair theory I can respect coming from a Button fan.

But things like Lewis not knowing his best direction, I see as stuff that can happen for a race or two e.g. Monza last year....but not majority of a season which is what Button will need to beat dude.

Lewis may have struggled with setup attimes in 07, but he won the WDC in 08 where I'm sure he had little help from Kov as far as setup was concerned. Same thing in the 2nd half of 2009, where Kovy was having major problems but Lewis always found a way to setup the car to be quick in qualifying and in the races...he was always getting faster as the weekend progressed and I get the feeling its somewhere he is pretty strong in nowadays.

an example is Japan where he hardly had any setup time, but still was able to dial in the car to beat the Ferraris and his teammate in qualifying. I dont think its just a matter of adaptability, that helps but I believe you need a proper idea of how u want the car setup b4 u can just pull out those times.
another example is Abu Dhabi, where he had apparently optimized the car setup after FP2...but given they always try to chase more time btw FP2 n FP3, they made more changes to the car for FP3, went backwards....and then qualified n raced with the FP2 setup.

#23883 as65p

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 19:29

Bonaventura, on Jan 21 2011, 17:48, said:

Button had the same chance on the title like Lewis had last season
what is his excuse 2010?


There is no excuse, Hamilton beat him over the season. I already said that it's a compliment to Hamiltons ability that he fought for the WDC right to the end in the 3 years he had a capable car.

But all that wasn't the point in recent post, rather how Button and Hamilton compare in mental strength at the end of a WDC fight. Now it's true that we got only one sample of that from Button vs. three from Hamilton, but still in all three Hamilton looked more nervous than Button in his single one.

#23884 Mackarel

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 20:14

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 13:31, said:

Not really what I'm getting at though. Some drivers primary strength is adaptability. They can get in anything and drive it fast. A great skill, but it becomes less valuable the better the car is. A good example of someone that exceled in lesser machinery is Fisichella. Fisi managed to pull out great races here and there when in midfield cars, and dominated his teammates in such cars. But when he had his chance in the class of the field he was nowhere (yes, he had Alonso as his teammate - but note that Fernando is a guy that knows exactly what he wants from a car).

Now before the screaming starts I'm not comparing Lewis to Fisi. Lewis has proven he can win a championship and can drive a good car fast. But the very adaptability that is such an asset will still be diminished the better the car gets. And Button's narrow window becomes an asset, as he knows exactly how he wants the car and with a great car it won't be difficult for him to fine tune it.

A great example of this is Schumacher. A guy with great skill but with a very specific needs from the car. When he had the car to meet those needs he was untouchable. Very quick drivers like Irvine and Rubens couldn't get near him. Last year the car couldn't meet those needs so he totally lost that advantage.

Now back to our guys. Jenson knows exactly what he wants. But Lewis could very well run into the problem of not really knowing what works for him best. He can drive it fast no matter how you set it up (within reason, of course) so he and the engineers have much less to go on when it comes to direction. This is where Button could get a leg up on Hamilton.

If Jenson finds the zone, Lewis could surely copy his setup if he wanted to, but this isn't likely to work either. As good as he is at driving using various styles, he's not going to out-smooth Button.

That said, this all requires a very specific set of circumstances, and even if it happens exactly as I'm suggesting that doesn't mean that will be a lot in it. Lewis is so strong in Q that he can still take the fight to Jenson, and he will have his tracks like Canada where he just finds speed others don't seem to find.

I hope McLaren builds the rocketship we're all hoping for and we'll find out if my hypothesis holds water. I also wants to see how Hamilton reacts to being beaten on speed (instead of by guile). He's like the undefeated boxer that has never been knocked down - you don't really know how he'll react to it until it happens (and sooner or later it always does).


This theory is interesting, but it assumes that both drivers are equally as talented, just that 1 is more adaptable.
It's basically saying that given an equally comfortable car Jenson will do better because of what? he has better reaction, feel, fearlessness?

The theory is only valid if Jenson is as fundamentally as fast as Hamilton. I am of the opinion Hamilton is like Usain Bolt, if you know who that is, he's just gifted physically or mentally (whatever it takes to be an ace driver) and he simply cannot be equaled by Jenson Button who is a long way off in talent and outright pace.

Usain Bolt has no equal, and can only be beaten by 2 other men if he is not as his best on certain day; Asafa Powell, previous record holder and Tyson Gay the fastest American off all time.
These 3 are analogous to Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso. Button does not fall in the same talent pool, and i find it hard to visualize him being faster than Hamilton after 10 years of being mediocre, even relative to his teammates. He never showed that raw talent.

The flaws in the theory are that it doesn't take into account the underlying neurological differences or physiological differences that makes Hamilton faster. I don't know what they are, but they almost guarantee that Lewis will have an advantage from the get go if place in any machinery. These factors are what constitutes his talent.
His adaptability is not his main strength, so it wont diminish his relative speed. As i said fundamentals such as muscle reaction, feel, hand eye coordination, fear/bravery, neurology are responsible. Button cannot improve on that now, his talents are all he has, and they may not be equal to Hamilton's. He's 31 years of age as well and that has some effect.

You can't hold Hamilton at one level and graduate Jenson. Any thing that benefits Button 100% may only Benefit Lewis 80%, but it may be enough of a benefit for Lewis to still have the edge.

For illustration purposes; if talent can be expressed units , Lewis has 100 basic talent units and Jenson has 80, ( assume God gave them these at birth)

Also, if the driver's performance is a culmination of the car's suitability to the driver, expressed as a % , and his basic talent units.

a car 100% to Jenson's liking will set him at his full potential of 80 + 80*100% = 160 performance units.
While Lewis may suffer a little and get 100 + 100*80% = 180 performance units , not his full potential but enough to edge Button.

Keep in mind this is a disadvantage for Hamilton. The synergy of talent and machinery is not his full potential, but his fundamental talent ensures that whatever car they are both put in, Lewis will have the edge so long as the car is acceptable for him. It's only until a car has an extremely negative impact on Lewis' driving that Button stands a chance of beating him. Using the same hypothetical example that number would be 60% suitability to Button's 100% , and Mclaren simply wont build such a car.


#23885 jjcale

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 20:23

Mackarel, on Jan 21 2011, 20:14, said:

This theory is interesting, but it assumes that both drivers are equally as talented, just that 1 is more adaptable.
It's basically saying that given an equally comfortable car Jenson will do better because of what? he has better reaction, feel, fearlessness?

The theory is only valid if Jenson is as fundamentally as fast as Hamilton. I am of the opinion Hamilton is like Usain Bolt, if you know who that is, he's just gifted physically or mentally (whatever it takes to be an ace driver) and he simply cannot be equaled by Jenson Button who is a long way off in talent and outright pace.

Usain Bolt has no equal, and can only be beaten by 2 other men if he is not as his best on certain day; Asafa Powell, previous record holder and Tyson Gay the fastest American off all time.
These 3 are analogous to Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso. Button does not fall in the same talent pool, and i find it hard to visualize him being faster than Hamilton after 10 years of being mediocre, even relative to his teammates. He never showed that raw talent.

The flaws in the theory are that it doesn't take into account the underlying neurological differences or physiological differences that makes Hamilton faster. I don't know what they are, but they almost guarantee that Lewis will have an advantage from the get go if place in any machinery. These factors are what constitutes his talent.
His adaptability is not his main strength, so it wont diminish his relative speed. As i said fundamentals such as muscle reaction, feel, hand eye coordination, fear/bravery, neurology are responsible. Button cannot improve on that now, his talents are all he has, and they may not be equal to Hamilton's. He's 31 years of age as well and that has some effect.

You can't hold Hamilton at one level and graduate Jenson. Any thing that benefits Button 100% may only Benefit Lewis 80%, but it may be enough of a benefit for Lewis to still have the edge.

For illustration purposes; if talent can be expressed units , Lewis has 100 basic talent units and Jenson has 80, ( assume God gave them these at birth)

Also, if the driver's performance is a culmination of the car's suitability to the driver, expressed as a % , and his basic talent units.

a car 100% to Jenson's liking will set him at his full potential of 80 + 80*100% = 160 performance units.
While Lewis may suffer a little and get 100 + 100*80% = 180 performance units , not his full potential but enough to edge Button.

Keep in mind this is a disadvantage for Hamilton. The synergy of talent and machinery is not his full potential, but his fundamental talent ensures that whatever car they are both put in, Lewis will have the edge so long as the car is acceptable for him. It's only until a car has an extremely negative impact on Lewis' driving that Button stands a chance of beating him. Using the same hypothetical example that number would be 60% suitability to Button's 100% , and Mclaren simply wont build such a car.



I tend to agree ...but most of this is just assumptions.

#23886 tkulla

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 20:32

Mackarel, on Jan 21 2011, 21:14, said:

This theory is interesting, but it assumes that both drivers are equally as talented, just that 1 is more adaptable.
It's basically saying that given an equally comfortable car Jenson will do better because of what? he has better reaction, feel, fearlessness?

The theory is only valid if Jenson is as fundamentally as fast as Hamilton. I am of the opinion Hamilton is like Usain Bolt, if you know who that is, he's just gifted physically or mentally (whatever it takes to be an ace driver) and he simply cannot be equaled by Jenson Button who is a long way off in talent and outright pace.

Usain Bolt has no equal, and can only be beaten by 2 other men if he is not as his best on certain day; Asafa Powell, previous record holder and Tyson Gay the fastest American off all time.
These 3 are analogous to Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso. Button does not fall in the same talent pool, and i find it hard to visualize him being faster than Hamilton after 10 years of being mediocre, even relative to his teammates. He never showed that raw talent.

The flaws in the theory are that it doesn't take into account the underlying neurological differences or physiological differences that makes Hamilton faster. I don't know what they are, but they almost guarantee that Lewis will have an advantage from the get go if place in any machinery. These factors are what constitutes his talent.
His adaptability is not his main strength, so it wont diminish his relative speed. As i said fundamentals such as muscle reaction, feel, hand eye coordination, fear/bravery, neurology are responsible. Button cannot improve on that now, his talents are all he has, and they may not be equal to Hamilton's. He's 31 years of age as well and that has some effect.

You can't hold Hamilton at one level and graduate Jenson. Any thing that benefits Button 100% may only Benefit Lewis 80%, but it may be enough of a benefit for Lewis to still have the edge.

For illustration purposes; if talent can be expressed units , Lewis has 100 basic talent units and Jenson has 80, ( assume God gave them these at birth)

Also, if the driver's performance is a culmination of the car's suitability to the driver, expressed as a % , and his basic talent units.

a car 100% to Jenson's liking will set him at his full potential of 80 + 80*100% = 160 performance units.
While Lewis may suffer a little and get 100 + 100*80% = 180 performance units , not his full potential but enough to edge Button.

Keep in mind this is a disadvantage for Hamilton. The synergy of talent and machinery is not his full potential, but his fundamental talent ensures that whatever car they are both put in, Lewis will have the edge so long as the car is acceptable for him. It's only until a car has an extremely negative impact on Lewis' driving that Button stands a chance of beating him. Using the same hypothetical example that number would be 60% suitability to Button's 100% , and Mclaren simply wont build such a car.


Actually, I believe your assumption is far more likely to be incorrect than mine. There is absolutely no evidence of Hamilton being neurologically or physiologically superior to the other top drivers. In reality they are all almost certainly extreme outliers in these areas (vision, reflexes, hand/eye coordination, balance sensitivity). To assume that Hamilton is an outlier amongst outliers based on nothing at all seems a bit farfetched.

The analogy to Bolt doesn't hold up. Bolt's physiological advantage is plain to see - he's very tall for a sprinter, and with limbs that are proportionally long as well. With comparable quickness out of the blocks and technique, this advantage makes him hard to beat.

Edit: typo

Edited by tkulla, 21 January 2011 - 20:32.


#23887 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 20:37

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 20:32, said:

Actually, I believe your assumption is far more likely to be incorrect than mine. There is absolutely no evidence of Hamilton being neurologically or physiologically superior to the other top drivers. In reality they are all almost certainly extreme outliers in these areas (vision, reflexes, hand/eye coordination, balance sensitivity). To assume that Hamilton is an outlier amongst outliers based on nothing at all seems a bit farfetched.


Well you can't say all the outliers are the same, can you? One of them is the most extreme, whoever it may be.

#23888 tkulla

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 20:42

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 21:37, said:

Well you can't say all the outliers are the same, can you? One of them is the most extreme, whoever it may be.


That's true. But it could easily be another driver who is this "extreme" case and we don't really see it because his talent hasn't been developed as well as others (thereby evening things out). In any case, the percentage difference in ability is sure to very small between the top guys no matter who is most "talented".

#23889 Lights

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:00

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 20:01, said:

Wrong in what sense?

In that you can't use 1 example, in this case qualifying 14th, as an argument to conclude Button lost speed in that particular scenario. I mean, he was still ahead of Hamilton and Vettel on the grid. The circumstances weren't normal. But you knew that.

#23890 Mackarel

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:02

I am not confirming Hamilton is superior, but you cannot say all drivers are equal either, no matter how high a level of competition they are at.

Hamilton's history suggest that he is more talented. Talent could be defined by the same physical factors that i listed, or maybe something else.
I used track and field, because that is one of the few sports where raw talent and hard work are the main factors, not machines or tools.

There is no evidence to support my theory, but it has some logic to it, since in reality no 2 people are exactly alike.

Logically a more talented driver can drive any car faster than a less talented driver. The less talented one will only beat the other if the other is handicapped.
My little example was demonstrating that by rationalizing something qualitative. Your theory though makes some sense, if we assume all drivers are equal, doesn't really explain why jenson should be better.

I used the numbers to rationalize why Jenson may not be able to beat Hamilton and i also showed how he may be able to do it, ie if Hamilton is handicapped by a car that is not suitable to him (that must be a donkey cart or unicyle; because more than likely he will force the car to perform) while Button finds the car perfect.

So i think this may boil down to your belief that the 24 F1 drivers on the grid are equally talented tissue cell for tissue cell. I disagree with that and i believe that there are drivers that are simply better at driving, just as there are runners that are simply faster.

From observation and reminiscence Button is not as talented as Lewis. It's even questionable if he is more talented than Barichello. He's a better driver of course considering all factors like fitness ect. but for raw talent there are many drivers that fill the gap between Jenson and Lewis.




#23891 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:09

tkulla, on Jan 21 2011, 20:42, said:

That's true. But it could easily be another driver who is this "extreme" case and we don't really see it because his talent hasn't been developed as well as others (thereby evening things out). In any case, the percentage difference in ability is sure to very small between the top guys no matter who is most "talented".


It would be very interesting to see the data that Aki Hintsa collects about their physiology, and their simulator data as well. But in the absence of that, we have to go by their racing.

And yes it's a tiny difference, on a 100-second lap 2 tenths is 0.2%. But that's the difference between good and great in F1.

So far, I'd say the evidence points to Lewis having that kind of edge, rather than Jenson.


#23892 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:16

Lights, on Jan 21 2011, 21:00, said:

In that you can't use 1 example, in this case qualifying 14th, as an argument to conclude Button lost speed in that particular scenario. I mean, he was still ahead of Hamilton and Vettel on the grid. The circumstances weren't normal. But you knew that.


It was an example not proof. It was part of a long string of poor performances starting with Silverstone. Then in Abu Dhabi with the pressure off he was back on form.

#23893 Lights

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:44

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 22:16, said:

It was an example not proof. It was part of a long string of poor performances starting with Silverstone. Then in Abu Dhabi with the pressure off he was back on form.

I don't see it that simple. In Abu Dhabi he kept his string of qualifying behind Barrichello. In the race Barrichello damaged his front wing and Button beat him, but it wasn't anywhere near convincing. You're talking like it was just pressure taking him off form since Silverstone. I guess the same happened to Barrichello then? Yes I know Rubens won two races, but besides those 2 races, he didn't really achieve anything either.

#23894 Bonaventura

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 21:57

as65p, on Jan 21 2011, 20:29, said:

There is no excuse, Hamilton beat him over the season. I already said that it's a compliment to Hamiltons ability that he fought for the WDC right to the end in the 3 years he had a capable car.

But all that wasn't the point in recent post, rather how Button and Hamilton compare in mental strength at the end of a WDC fight. Now it's true that we got only one sample of that from Button vs. three from Hamilton, but still in all three Hamilton looked more nervous than Button in his single one.

Button had two samples not only one he had a capeable car 2010
He had all chances 2010, but instead of fighting he still relied on his gambles and lost
Lewis looks more nervous sometimes, but he did not lose his nerves like Button did at Korea
Lewis shows his feelings more open than other drivers therfore some people think he's weak
but the other drivers are only better actors
For me Button looks far more insecure than Lewis the most of the time
Button, even if he is slower than Lewis should have benefit more from Lewis 2 more DNF and his penalty and gearbox problems.


#23895 undersquare

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 22:09

Lights, on Jan 21 2011, 21:44, said:

I don't see it that simple. In Abu Dhabi he kept his string of qualifying behind Barrichello. In the race Barrichello damaged his front wing and Button beat him, but it wasn't anywhere near convincing. You're talking like it was just pressure taking him off form since Silverstone. I guess the same happened to Barrichello then? Yes I know Rubens won two races, but besides those 2 races, he didn't really achieve anything either.


Well it was just such a sudden fall. His early races went 1, 4, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1. Then came his home race, he was a shoe-in for the title and a win in front of his fans, and he was 6th. And that drop in form stayed with him, bar a 2nd in Monza behind his teammate, until the title was sewn up.

So although it's true they stopped developing the car and there were various reasons each time, tyre pressures and temperatures and so on, it did just look like a massive tightening up.

Whereas Lewis stayed fast. In 07 in China he had 22s over Alonso at one stage (if only...) and in Brazil he qualified 2nd. Then in 08 he won China and drove a great Brazil in a car with too little downforce. In 2010 he never lost his pace, various other things went wrong but he was faster than ever relative to his teammate at the end of the season.

So...where this started... anyone who's hoping that if it's close between them for the wdc towards the end of 2011 JB will have the stronger head, is in for a disappointment IMO. History is against it.

Edited by undersquare, 21 January 2011 - 22:47.


#23896 Mackarel

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 22:39

Well said.
Lewis has never broken down over a weekend. All we ever see are little chips and cracks during a race.

Button on the other hand has crumbled completely during a race Korea 2010 being the last hope he had of defending the title. He also crumbled in some races in 2009.

Hamilton never fell apart over a weekend. Bad luck has reached him but he always takes the race down to the finish with some semblance of hope.
When button is broken, he's really broken and you want to turn off the TV in shame. Spinning out in Korea hurt me, not as a button fan, but because i have some semblance of respect for Jenson.

#23897 as65p

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 23:03

undersquare, on Jan 21 2011, 23:09, said:

Well it was just such a sudden fall. His early races went 1, 4, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1. Then came his home race, he was a shoe-in for the title and a win in front of his fans, and he was 6th. And that drop in form stayed with him, bar a 2nd in Monza behind his teammate, until the title was sewn up.

So although it's true they stopped developing the car and there were various reasons each time, tyre pressures and temperatures and so on, it did just look like a massive tightening up.

Whereas Lewis stayed fast. In 07 in China he had 22s over Alonso at one stage (if only...) and in Brazil he qualified 2nd. Then in 08 he won China and drove a great Brazil in a car with too little downforce. In 2010 he never lost his pace, various other things went wrong but he was faster than ever relative to his teammate at the end of the season.


The issue isn't Hamiltons speed, of course that doesn't disappear suddenly. Instead it's his composure that does, when the heat turns up at the end of the season, 3 out of 3 times by now and counting. It's not "various other things" that go wrong but always the same thing, his nerves let him down.

#23898 Bonaventura

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 23:06

as65p, on Jan 22 2011, 00:03, said:

The issue isn't Hamiltons speed, of course that doesn't disappear suddenly. Instead it's his composure that does, when the heat turns up at the end of the season, 3 out of 3 times by now and counting. It's not "various other things" that go wrong but always the same thing, his nerves let him down.

2007 the team let him down
2010 the car let him down
2008 he won

Edited by Bonaventura, 21 January 2011 - 23:07.


#23899 as65p

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 23:08

Bonaventura, on Jan 21 2011, 22:57, said:

....
but the other drivers are only better actors
....


That's an insult to Hamiltons supreme talents in that department. :mad:

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#23900 Bonaventura

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 23:12

as65p, on Jan 22 2011, 00:08, said:

That's an insult to Hamiltons supreme talents in that department. :mad:

no,
he
isn't
Lewis is not good at playing act
he/ his feelings can be read very easily :D