71 replies to this topic

[packapoo]

Well I certainly think so!
Quite a legend................... A sorry one.

How many years have Merc with all their great history and past success, been trying to get to the chequer first this time round?

Yeah Ross, as the man says, you're a legend.

[Andy35]

I think Frank Williams is a legend...

Me too.

Definitely can be put up there with other people mentioned quite rightly on this thread.

Andy

[akshay380]

Last week there was a rumor going around about Ross Brawn talking to Ferrari. Anyone knows more?

[Number62]

The legend of Ross is one of the more pathetic myths currently enduring in F1 these days.

Here's a guy who was MrM's machinist at Bicester back in the March days.

It should have become abundantly clear with this Merc stint that he has no idea how to run a team, and has no technical knowledge of value whatsoever. Yet people still think he does.

He has achieved nothing as a team principal. Brawn GP doesn't count as he took over a car and team, for which he had no responsibility in building. Honda made that car possible, not Ross.

Ross was there in 2007, 16 months before BGP hit the track and during that time survived team closure, management buyout, new engine supply negotiation, 2 driver negotiations, redundancies, new budget constraints and multiple sponsor contracts.

Oh and he oversaw the design of championship winning BGP001.


I'd say he achieved a fair amount as a team principal.

[CoolBreeze]

I bought one of his book recently, and when i was reading it, what amazed me was his commitment, his passion and his love for his job.

However, selling to Merc was probably a mistake now. I just have a hunch.

[SenorSjon]

Ross was there in 2007, 16 months before BGP hit the track and during that time survived team closure, management buyout, new engine supply negotiation, 2 driver negotiations, redundancies, new budget constraints and multiple sponsor contracts.

Oh and he oversaw the design of championship winning BGP001.


I'd say he achieved a fair amount as a team principal.

You didn't watch the 2008 season then?

[evil train of thought]
Bad 2008, knowing the development (the original idea was from Super Aguri engineers) for the 2009 Honda.
Honda leaves F1 due to recession and a very abysmal season, Brawn takes over.
Wins 2009 with a glitch in the rules. Has sacrificed 2008 to test the system for 2009, knowing very well other teams were restricted under the test ban.
[/evil train of thought]

The things you mention is the standard workload of any teammanager.

In hindsight, the car is now worse than it ended in 2008. So it seems the development is back to its old form.

[Number62]

You didn't watch the 2008 season then?

[evil train of thought]
Bad 2008, knowing the development (the original idea was from Super Aguri engineers) for the 2009 Honda.
Honda leaves F1 due to recession and a very abysmal season, Brawn takes over.
Wins 2009 with a glitch in the rules. Has sacrificed 2008 to test the system for 2009, knowing very well other teams were restricted under the test ban.
[/evil train of thought]

The things you mention is the standard workload of any teammanager.

In hindsight, the car is now worse than it ended in 2008. So it seems the development is back to its old form.

I did. I've watched every season since 1976.

If Brawn sacrificed 2008 to concentrate on 2009, clearly that was a genius decision.

I don't know any other team principal that's dealt with this: http://www.bbc.co.uk...y_of_brawn.html . So clearly we disagree there.

Just a snippet - ""The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car". "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."

[SenorSjon]

But then he did the same in 2010 for 2011... 2011 for 2012 and this year he didn't say so for 2013 because there are hardly any rule changes. But Schumacher didn't want to sign up for another year like the past three ones, especially since development is virtually non-excistent with the team. Button on the other hand made the right choice to jump ship to McLaren.

[Number62]

But then he did the same in 2010 for 2011... 2011 for 2012 and this year he didn't say so for 2013 because there are hardly any rule changes. But Schumacher didn't want to sign up for another year like the past three ones, especially since development is virtually non-excistent with the team. Button on the other hand made the right choice to jump ship to McLaren.

So he doesn't get it right every year. I haven't seen anyone who does.

And yet Lewis, Niki Lauda, Dieter Zetsche, Petronas, Aabar, MIG, Puma, (possibly Michael Schumacher), Bob Bell etc. etc. all want to get involved. Those are some pretty big reputations with some serious decision making pedigree.

I wonder what they see that you don't?

[SenorSjon]

My summary.
Lewis (money, more personal sponsorship, wants the "I can succeed elsewhere" throphy)
Niki Lauda (money, didn't set the world on fire [no pun] as a team manager)
Dieter Zetsche (is a merc boss)
Petronas (lured by world title and MSC prospect)
Aabar (is leaving after this season)
MIG (is rumoured to be leaving and being traded for UBS)
Puma (has deals with half the grid, so they generally wanted to be in F1)
Michael Schumacher (lured by possible 8th world title)
Bob Bell (money, don't forget the other chefs in the kitchen)

If Brawn was a so claimed legend, we would have seen better team tactics, better reliability and better development during the season. They focussed earlier than others on the car for the following year and still couldn't deliver. They have problems with the rear like forever. In 2009 they couldn't heat the tires and 2010 onwards they chew them up.

[TheNewStig]

You can't compare what Ross Brawn or Adrian Newey do now to what Enzo Ferrari or Colin Chapman did in the 50's or 60's.The world is changing and so is the people in it.Ross and Adrian is living legends of our time,Ken Tyrrell and Sir Frank of the 70's and 80's,Chapman and Ferrari of the 50's and 60's and so on.

Who is bigger legends then Ross Brawn right now?Martin Withmars?Franz Tost?

[Number62]

My summary.
Lewis (money, more personal sponsorship, wants the "I can succeed elsewhere" throphy)
Niki Lauda (money, didn't set the world on fire [no pun] as a team manager)
Dieter Zetsche (is a merc boss)
Petronas (lured by world title and MSC prospect)
Aabar (is leaving after this season)
MIG (is rumoured to be leaving and being traded for UBS)
Puma (has deals with half the grid, so they generally wanted to be in F1)
Michael Schumacher (lured by possible 8th world title)
Bob Bell (money, don't forget the other chefs in the kitchen)

If Brawn was a so claimed legend, we would have seen better team tactics, better reliability and better development during the season. They focussed earlier than others on the car for the following year and still couldn't deliver. They have problems with the rear like forever. In 2009 they couldn't heat the tires and 2010 onwards they chew them up.

Your list seems to be half admission that people percieve a winning infrastructure at MGP (in which you are agreeing with me) and half suggestion that some people see an easy access slush fund where they can go and bleed Benz for millions with no return or credentials (which is implausible).

The second bit is unfounded speculation, watch:

Without Brawn, we would have seen even worse tactics, reliability and development.

Just as valid as your statement.

[Claudius]

The moment Mercedes turn the situation around, Ross will be considered a legend again.

[Rasputin]

Ross Brawn is probably F1's biggest fake ever, his only true accomplishment was sucking up to his boss when he was operating the milling-machine in Bicester.

Mosley has been his promoter and agent since then, while Brawn acted as the former's eyes and ears at Ferrari, that's all there is to it really.

His true capacity has only come to light in recent years.

[HP]

Ron Dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ross Brawn

Comparing apple to oranges I am afraid.

Ron Dennis is a businessman at heart. For example buying the right engines, etc. to make his team successful. But even there were some times, when McLaren had sub par engines, and thus sub par years previous to Mercedes joining in.

Brawn is an engineer at heart. And as engineer he was responsible for great and not so great cars.

[TheNewStig]

Ross Brawn is probably F1's biggest fake ever, his only true accomplishment was sucking up to his boss when he was operating the milling-machine in Bicester.

Mosley has been his promoter and agent since then, while Brawn acted as the former's eyes and ears at Ferrari, that's all there is to it really.

His true capacity has only come to light in recent years.

[BoschKurve]

Ross Brawn is probably F1's biggest fake ever, his only true accomplishment was sucking up to his boss when he was operating the milling-machine in Bicester.

Mosley has been his promoter and agent since then, while Brawn acted as the former's eyes and ears at Ferrari, that's all there is to it really.

His true capacity has only come to light in recent years.

When Ross made out like a bandit with the Brawn GP sale, perhaps MrM took a finder's fee from Ross for putting him in the position to now have a bank account with a 100 million in it?

[stanga]

When Ross made out like a bandit with the Brawn GP sale, perhaps MrM took a finder's fee from Ross for putting him in the position to now have a bank account with a 100 million in it?

Funny how you and Rasputin sing the same tune here and, well, just about anytime Mercedes and/or Brawn are mentioned on this forum.

Did he run over your cat or something?

[Rasputin]

---
Did he run over your cat or something?

Not exactly mine, but a few others' that I can imagine, such as Zetche's thoroughbred Siamese?

Edited by Rasputin, 08 December 2012 - 20:05.

[Rasputin]

When Ross made out like a bandit with the Brawn GP sale, perhaps MrM took a finder's fee from Ross for putting him in the position to now have a bank account with a 100 million in it?

I seriously doubt that, more like a promise to keep in touch for future endeavors perhaps?

[BoschKurve]

Not exactly mine, but a few others' that I can imagine, such as Zetche's thoroughbred Siamese?

I had a nice Himalayan once that was run over by Brawn's Ferrari. You'd think he'd be driving the SLR McLaren Stirling Moss Edition....but perhaps driving such a thing conjures up thoughts about how he'll never be able to match the past of the Silver Arrows?

Either that, or he and the Italian Stallion got a package deal for matching 612's.

[BoschKurve]

I seriously doubt that, more like a promise to keep in touch for future endeavors perhaps?

Indeed. Or even a quid pro quo for standing by him in his time of troubles when old Maximilian's bedroom exploits became public knowledge?