65 replies to this topic

[RedFever]

I found this piece of info on the accident that caused the young Austrian to lose his life. I was in grad school that year and didn't have time to watch qualifying, only the race. So, I have missed this detail. Can anyone confirm if it is true?

"On Saturday, new driver Roland Ratzenberger was attempting to qualify his Simtek. The team advised that he had damaged the car following a minor off. However, Roland did not come into the pits to have the car checked. The front wing came away, Roland lost control and hurtled into a barrier. His neck was broken and he died instantly, the first Formula 1 fatality in 12 years."

[ZZMS]

these are not direct mpegs.. each link will open a browser's window and then it will automatically download mpeg

http://f-1.sovintel....tzenberger.html
http://f-1.sovintel....ola_roland.html

RIP

[Mosquito]

RedFever,

Not inexperience I think. How often do we see people having little offs? Lots of times. Hell, in Sepang we saw a huge little off from DC, and he continued untill his engine got overheated. He could also have lost a wing.

In these kind of things, there's as good as no learning curve. Ratzenberger was an extreme case of 'shit happens'. Point is: had he not crashed, would ANYONE have said 'wow! This guy was taking a big risk not coming slowly back to the pit!'. I think not. Prolly noone would even have noticed or remembered it 10 minutes later.

[MrAerodynamicist]

From what I remember [this is of race reports etc, it was never really shown on TV] that he suddenly lost the front wing in the middle of a medium speed corner. He then suddently lost all his front downforce [creating understeer] while the wing loged itself in the front suspension. He didn't have chance to do much before he hit the wall front on.

[MattFoster]

I don't think Ratzenberger died of inexperience more from desperation. He had struggled in the Simtek at the frist few races of '94 and he was probably he was trying hard not to fail to qualify yet again. I don't know for sure if he was running out of time or laps to get on the grid but I suspect that that may have played some part in his decision to stay out for that final lap


Cheers
Matt

[aRTi]

Front or rearwing I can't really remember. It was probably a damaged wing and crashed into a wall.
It was only Roland's second race in Formula One.
1994 was his ninth year of racing.
Formula Ford 1600 (winning Festival at Brands Hatch), Formula 3 in the UK and Euroseris, Formula 3000 in the UK, Europe and Japan, World Touring Cars (BMW), Sportscars (Porsche and Toyota, he also did Le Mans twice, finishing 12th and 5th )

[MattFoster]

aRTi,

It was a front wing, Roland went off course at the last chicane. He rejoined the track with the damaged front wing got around the tamburello and then crashed at Tosa


Matt

[aRTi]

Thanks Matt,
Only I don't think he died because of inexperience, although it was only his second Grand Prix.
After all those years as a racing driver competing, for over 8 years, only in high level championships, also as a works driver (BMW and Toyota), also driving at circuits all over Europe and Japan.

That's more then one year, or something like that, in Formula Renault in the UK…
That make me think…
There are some topics on this BB that Max Mosley doesn't support giving Kimi Räikkönen his super license.
Roland was driving a Simtek.
I can remember Max Mosley had something to do with Simtek when the team was founded in 1993 and starts racing in 94.

[aRTi]

Oh yes, and desperation, probably a normal racing drivers habit during qualifying…;)

[f1lover]

inexperience or not, i hate to think of the pure horror that would have gone through his mind looking at the wall coming at him at the terrible speed. btw, the impact didnt look that strong compared to senna accident.

[Zoe]

From how the chassis looked like after the crash the impact must have been huge. I remember seeing a pretty large hole in the side of the monocoque (and Rolands head rolling on his shoulders, urgh, that was an ugly sight).

On TV you could just see a part of the front wing flying off on the straight after Tamburello leading to Tosa. You had to look closely, but there were enough replays of that view to spot this flying part. Whether the car had experienced more damage than the wind alone I don't know, however for some reason methinks that the steering must have been damaged as well. If it was the wing that flew off I assume(!) that maybe it would have been possible for Roland to scrape off some of the speed before actually reaching Tosa.

But this is something we'll probably never know. The only thing remaining is the memory of Roland; sadly most people just think of Senna when talking of Imola 94 and forgetting Roland (who?).

Zoe

[pRy]

Originally posted by Zoe

On TV you could just see a part of the front wing flying off on the straight after Tamburello leading to Tosa. You had to look closely, but there were enough replays of that view to spot this flying part. Whether the car had experienced more damage than the wind alone I don't know, however for some reason methinks that the steering must have been damaged as well. If it was the wing that flew off I assume(!) that maybe it would have been possible for Roland to scrape off some of the speed before actually reaching Tosa.

Well what happened was, he went off the track the lap before. This little off had slightly damaged the wing, made it abit fragile.. and weak. When he came to Tosa, the downforce,wind etc finally was too much for the now weak component, and it snapped off. He found himself with alot less downforce, his speed was too high, he had no chance of being able to turn enough. By the time he had realised his car wasnt turning in the way it should be, he was alreaddy off the track.

[pRy]

I thought id add something else to the discussion. Ive seen quite alot of people comment on the Roland and Senna crashes, and mention that his steering *must* have broken, because he didnt turn. Steering is not the only thing required to turn a car at high speed. When the car is travelling at high speed, downforce is required to have the car grip the circuit, and change direction. Its like if you ran at Monaco with no wing, you would crash into every wall at every corner, because your car just wouldnt have the pressure of downforce, sticking it to the track enough to gain sufficient grip to turn around the corner.

With the case of Roland, because he lost a major wing component suddenly, and was travelling at the high speed that Imola produced back in 1994, he was unable to turn enough to make the quite high speed corner, and went off into the wall.

Alot more things control your the cars direction than the steering wheel. The steering wheel changes the wheels direction, thats all. The rest is upto the downforce, the aerodynamics, the grip levels. A number of circumstances can effect these issues, and cause an instable car reaction.

[mhferrari]

But your steering wheel wasn't designed to move many centimeters, was it?

[Alien]

look at this site

http://www.imolaserv...m/autodromo.htm

under foto story....

then follow links to 1994

[pRy]

Originally posted by Alien
look at this site

http://www.imolaserv...m/autodromo.htm

under foto story....

then follow links to 1994

FYI Alien that photo of the side of the car and the blood isnt a commonly displayed photo, infact thats the first time ive seen that in such detail and I wish I hadnt.

[BuzzingHornet]

I heard that Ratzenberger went off the previous lap at Acque Minerale but didn't tell the team, they only found out later by looking at telemetry... he was just a young driver trying to impress, he didn't want to look like the fool that went off on his outlap so he just pressed on and the wing failed.

[aRTi]

Sorry, I think Roland had deserved a little more respect on this BB.
I think he was one of the racing drivers who would drive every competitive racing car. And he did.
Formula One wasn't his only goal.
I don think he was not inexperienced, not desperate and not just a young driver trying to impress.
And BuzzingHornet, what if he had called in? I don't think he would hear on his radio "Hey Roland, park your car and start walking…"

Roland was 31 years of age when he died.
He was a professional racing driver with a relative long career for over eight years in single seaters, touringcars and sportscars, before he entered F1.
The last years of his career he was doing F3000 and sportscars in Japan. He also did Le Mans.
His first Le Mans he partnered Irvine and Elgh, finishing ninth.
In 1993 he finished in fifth position.

In 1994, a few weeks after his dead, he would be driving his third Le Mans together with Mauro Martini and Jeff Krosnoff. Two years later Jeff was sadly killed in Toronto in CART.
His friend Eddie Irvine was asked to take Roland's place, desperately wanted to win this one as a tribute to Roland. His name still on the Toyota. They finished in second place.

Maybe interesting to read the article on Maison Blance, the Eddie Irvine article.
http://www.maisonblanche.co.uk

[mhferrari]

He did not die from inexperience. When your wing gets damaged you don't expect that soon, your front win will lose all downforce.

[RedFever]

I guess pretty much everyone here missinterpreted my original post.

I didn't say Roland wasn't a good driver. For Pete's sake, it was only his 2nd or so GP, impossible to judge, he could have been the next big thing as far as we know.

I did not say that the accident was due to inexperience and that a more experienced driver would have managed to keep the car on the track. No, no, no. If you lose a part at full speed and lose downforce, if your name is Roland or Ayrton, you still endup against a wall.

What I meant is this: The team advised he come in to check his car after the off. He didn't. Would a driver like Hakkinen, Schumacher, or Herbet, people with 100+ GPs behind go into the pits if the team believes it's better to check the car? or, being racers and having one last chance to do well in qualifying, they would go for one more flying lap like Roland did? that is what I meant by "did inexperience kill Roland".

Thank you

[mhferrari]

A post about Jochen Rindt's accident stated that it was common even before his 1970 incident, he would continue racing without a wing. Take it as you may.

[Hard Driver]

Looking at the first video at the top makes me remember those style cars, before all the rule changes due to these two tragic deaths.

When you look at them now, you see how little head protection these guys had. It looks extremely dangerous compared to the high sided cockpits of today. I also see the slicks and think these look like real race cars.

I have the upmost respect for these men who gave their lives participating in a sport I love. But I also believe if they could talk to us today, they would be critics of the current rules that where implimented after their deaths. Not off of them. The extra head restraints, tethers and some other safety improvements are great. But I believe Senna would be right there with Villenueve saying the new tires bastardized the cars and real men drive cars with slicks, etc.

[mhferrari]

Hard Driver,

You make a good point. Those cars looked more like racing cars. Some safety improvements are excellent and very good. However such changes, like slicks to grooves, are somewhat pointless. They just take away from the spirit of racing and don't really push safety, any way you look at it.

[RedFever]

Hard Driver, I certainly agree with you. Some improvements were needed and are welcome (more protection to the driver's body/head, etc).

Howeverm yes, slick tires are better. And not only because of the "real racing" factor, with more control/possibility to overtake, but, according to what I read from Schumacher and Damon Hill, slick tires guarantee better control, hence more safety for the drivers.

[MattFoster]

Red,

In my first post to this thread i stated that Roland didn't die from inexperience but from desperation. He was fighting to get his car on the grid. You are right that in the same situation most drivers would have done the same thing as Roland.

Cheers
Matt

[Nikos Spagnol]

Sorry for bringing up a defunct thread, but I just want to make things clear on this subject.

Roland wasn't a young rookie willing to impress; actually he was a experienced 31 (some sources say he was indeed 33!) years old sports car driver, who had been given a late chance in Formula One.

Neither was "desperate" to make his Simtek to the grid. Remember that Rubens Barrichello had suffered a huge crash on the Friday and therefore was out of action; to Pacific and Simtek fellows, that meant just one driver would miss the cut to Sunday, instead of regular two. I remember vividly, Roland crashed on the beginning of Saturday session (15 minutes), so he wasn't in a "desperate last attempt", as some made out later.

After the Austriaman was airlifted to Bologna, the session restarted, but most of the field forfeited the remaining of the session, even before Roland being officially announced dead. The Pacifics were among the ones who went on the Qualifying besides the tragedy, and even with advantage of 45 minutes of almost empty track, Paul Belmondo didn't beat Roland's best lap of 1:27.584, which would put the Austrian on the 26th and last position on the grid. Being the cash-stripped team they were, Simtek couldn't afford missing the race in respect to their driver, so Roland's place on the grid remained vacant.

Journalists often made up stories to put some drama in a otherwise ordinary tale. Like saying Senna crashed under Schumacher pressure, or Gilles died in a attempt to beat Pironi. Only reality sometimes is not enough to sell papers.

[Antigua]

Lets say Schumacher didn't know Senna died that Sunday(lets concede this to him). How was Schumimi able to celebrate his win at the podium, when he knew that Roland died 2 days before?

That was the beginning of the "F1 vergogna" era !


Willy Frère.

[D. Heimgartner]

Did MS celebrate at the Imola 94 podium?

[Antigua]

He did with Flavio. Flavio was more discreet, I must say.

Willy.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Schumacher's celebration, as far as I can remember, was rather reserved. Also, it's told that he cried after the podium cerimony.

Concerning celebrations after tragedy, Antigua, by your criteria we should then stretch your "F1 vergogna (shame, for you not Italian speakers) era" some decades before. Emmerson celebrated his second WDC at Watkins Glen '74, the race in wich young Helmut Konnig was decapitated, for example. In '70 Monza's podium, on the day after Jochen Rindt had died, I don't recall many tears. Formula One used to be a very tough world on the past, so even if Schummi had sprayed champagne on Imola's 94 podium it wouldn't be such a new thing.

[Antigua]

Originally posted by Nikos Spagnol
Schumacher's celebration, as far as I can remember, was rather reserved. Also, it's told that he cried after the podium cerimony.

Concerning celebrations after tragedy, Antigua, by your criteria we should then stretch your "F1 vergogna (shame, for you not Italian speakers) era" some decades before. Emmerson celebrated his second WDC at Watkins Glen '74, the race in wich young Helmut Konnig was decapitated, for example. In '70 Monza's podium, on the day after Jochen Rindt had died, I don't recall many tears. Formula One used to be a very tough world on the past, so even if Schummi had sprayed champagne on Imola's 94 podium it wouldn't be such a new thing.

I recall a big smile over his spoon face. Any proof he cried after the podium ceremony? Who told you that? Willy Webber? Perhaps it was joy? I would be happy to have the fastest driver of all time out of service so I could use my nationality to "dominate" F1.

I'm not aware of the Emerson's story (not Emmerson). But considering that you use rumours like "it's told that he cried after the podium cerimony" to fill up your paragraphs, I would not give a big amount of value to your talk.

In many occasions, drivers who died during a GP, had a cold podium ceremony, from example: Montreal 82 when Palleti died. Your idol for the first time and probably the last, showed some genuine feelings. Patrese who I believe shared the podium with Piquet, also was not very happy either and none sprayed champagne. The late Alboreto was also in rage at Imola 94.

Senna had the Austrian flag inside of his car at the Imola 1994, in case he would win the race.



Willy Frère.

[mr. handsome]

Pret-ty harsh judgements, some of these accounts of the cause of the death. And pret-ty pointless as well. There was mechanical failure, competition situation, and driver's normal racing ambition involved that summed up to a loss of a life. Period. Why start probing what was to blame? Tragical incident, I don't see why to bring such a speculation up. Let him rest in peace - it's a different matter (but just as silly) to speculate would this or that driver have won if this or that inccident would have/have not happened. Speculative posts of happened facts are simply waste of time.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Antigua



I recall a big smile over his spoon face. Any proof he cried after the podium ceremony? Who told you that? Willy Webber? Perhaps it was joy? I would be happy to have the fastest driver of all time out of service so I could use my nationality to "dominate" F1.

Please keep your slanderous crap to yourself. maybe YOU would be happy about that, but MS most certainly wasnt.

Shaun

[Antigua]

Shaun, one question,

have you seen the podium celebration?

[baddog]

I watched imola 1994. I watched senna dying. I watched the race proceed and the podium. I know everything it was possible to know from television.

Shaun

[pRy]

Originally posted by Antigua
Shaun, one question,

have you seen the podium celebration?

I saw the podium and Schumacher was as cold faced and unhappy as I've ever seen him. He had both of his hands down infront of him holding I think his cap and he was not happy to be there. No one was happy to be there that day. You think Schumacher is that cold? Why don't you get a clue. Schumacher took part in the meeting that Senna called to discuss driver safety after the Roland crash. Stop talking trash.

[SupraDupra]

One thing seems to be overlooked in this thread about Ratzenberger. A few theorize that it was desperation in trying to get on the grid.. Well that would be understandable, if not for the fact that his accident happened in the saturday morning practice, not the qualifying session !

And to my recollection MS was not a happy man on the podium.. He's not that cold-blooded. He has a heart and emotions just like any normal person.

[SupraDupra]

And having looked into it more, now I'm no longer convinced it was the practice session and not the qualifying.. I have conflicting information sources! Anybody have a reliable and definite answer for that?

[kenny]

Originally posted by SupraDupra
And having looked into it more, now I'm no longer convinced it was the practice session and not the qualifying.. I have conflicting information sources! Anybody have a reliable and definite answer for that?

I am 100% sure it was qual

[servellen]

I remember that Shumacher was indeed happy to win, throwing his fist into the air. Most drivers on track were not aware that Senna had died, and were only told after the race. I remember Gerhard Berger pulling into the pits from the lead, and just stopping the race because he couldn't go on. I also remember that even for the tv viewer it was NOT clear that Senna was dead, there was no official statement until hours later, but from the TV scenes and the amount of blood we saw you could guess. I also saw a documentary about the fact Senna was rather disturbed his Williams was not as fast is it could be and this new talent Shumacher was so fast and they were a little playing mind games, and that after the death of Roland Ratzenburger, Dr. Sid Watkins adviced Senna not to get in the car for the race...... the way his car was moving through tamburello was not natural, bottoming out at what 290km/h with hardly any run off.

And Roland, I thought a wheel hit his head, and that killed him? Am i dreaming, really not sure.

[SupraDupra]

Originally posted by kenny


I am 100% sure it was qual

Ahh thank you. I stand corrected, and can now sleep without wondering which it was.

[pRy]

"Q. Michael, is it possible to gain any satisfaction from a victory like this?

MS: There is no satisfaction at all for me. This win certainly should
make me satisfied, but for me too many things happened this weekend to
let me feel satisfied."

--

Roland :

23. Ratzenberger A Simtek-Ford 1'27.584

/ 25

--

Roland Ratzenberger was pronounced dead at 14:15 at the Maggiore Hospital
in Bologne, from the injuries he suffered as a result of his crash in
qualifying.

Ayrton Senna and Heinz-Harald Frentzen did not take part in the second
qualifying session due to the crash. However, Senna's time from Friday was
sufficient to guarantee him pole position for Sunday's race. Damon Hill
improved enough to move past JJ Lehto's Benetton for fourth on the grid.

Both Benetton drivers, Lehto and Michael Schumacher, elected not to
participate in the remainder of the qualifying session. Schumacher had
already improved his Friday's time in the first 15 minutes of the session,
but will now start in 2nd, next to Ayrton Senna.

[François Bonaparte]

I don't think it was inexperiance of Roland, what caused his crash.....

The podium ceremony is discussed in the past more often, because of Schumacher's reaction on the podium.

I only found there 2 pictures of it,


it's sooo long ago, but people keep defending his podium ceremony as "he didn't know Senna was dead yet" while that's an invalid excuse, because of Ratzenberger.

I believe that he sprayed champagne that podium, and a little cheer, but this was 1994.

[baddog]

actually, well done frans, I hadnt been able to find a picture. Your pictures show just how huge the difference in michaels demeanour on that podium was from his usual manner when winning. To describe him as 'celebrating' is manifestly untrue. If you think that picture on the left is michael smiling then you havent seen a lot of grand prixs in the last 9 years.

In fact he raised his hand once, to acknowledge the fans, in no way celebratory. I remember it as clear as day (it isnt the sort of day one forgets)

Shaun

[MJP]

Originally posted by Antigua



I recall a big smile over his spoon face. Any proof he cried after the podium ceremony? Who told you that? Willy Webber? Perhaps it was joy? I would be happy to have the fastest driver of all time out of service so I could use my nationality to "dominate" F1.

I'm not aware of the Emerson's story (not Emmerson). But considering that you use rumours like "it's told that he cried after the podium cerimony" to fill up your paragraphs, I would not give a big amount of value to your talk.

In many occasions, drivers who died during a GP, had a cold podium ceremony, from example: Montreal 82 when Palleti died. Your idol for the first time and probably the last, showed some genuine feelings. Patrese who I believe shared the podium with Piquet, also was not very happy either and none sprayed champagne. The late Alboreto was also in rage at Imola 94.

Senna had the Austrian flag inside of his car at the Imola 1994, in case he would win the race.



Willy Frère.

Check a link in a post No. 43, please.

[holiday]

Classifying the last six dead in formula1, a pattern emerges: 3 have been high risk driver and 2 absolutely inexperienced. Only Elio de Angelis as both circumspect and experieced driver falls out of this classification. Make out of it what you want.

[François Bonaparte]

Shaun, an 1994 Season Highlights movie on the web can have caused some confusion about the podium ceremony in Imola. Check the movie http://www.f1seasons...hlights1994.wmv (quite big, be warned) where you can see an sudden contrast switch after the Senna's death part of it. 1st flash is an celebrating Schumacher. but a different podium... however it COULD contribute to the 'confusion', i am not 100% sure.... . To be sure the 1994 FIA season tape or something has to be re-watched... reloaded ... seeing is believing huh.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by mr. handsome
Pret-ty harsh judgements, some of these accounts of the cause of the death. And pret-ty pointless as well. There was mechanical failure, competition situation, and driver's normal racing ambition involved that summed up to a loss of a life. Period. Why start probing what was to blame? Tragical incident, I don't see why to bring such a speculation up.

It wasn't my intention to throw this subject into new speculation, I was rather trying to make justice to the facts, just like you did.

Sad that every discussion here is tourned out in some kind of bashing...

Originally posted by holiday
Classifying the last six dead in formula1, a pattern emerges: 3 have been high risk driver and 2 absolutely inexperienced. Only Elio de Angelis as both circumspect and experieced driver falls out of this classification. Make out of it what you want.

Sorry, Holiday, but I see no pattern possible, since you're talking about drivers who had been killed in a time gap of 14 years (1980, Depailler, to 1994, Senna & Roland), in which we saw a HUGE advance in drivers' safety.

Also, de Angelis, RR and Senna's crashes were due to some sort of car failure (or "sudden lost of control", or whatever you like), so it didn't matter who was the unfortunate guy at the wheel.

[baddog]

Originally posted by François Bonaparte
Shaun, an 1994 Season Highlights movie on the web can have caused some confusion about the podium ceremony in Imola. Check the movie http://www.f1seasons...hlights1994.wmv (quite big, be warned) where you can see an sudden contrast switch after the Senna's death part of it. 1st flash is an celebrating Schumacher. but a different podium... however it COULD contribute to the 'confusion', i am not 100% sure.... . To be sure the 1994 FIA season tape or something has to be re-watched... reloaded ... seeing is believing huh.

Thanks for that frans. very interesting to watch it all again. Two things are striking. One is the totally stunned 'cant quite believe its real' look on Michael in the press conference. The other is the faces of the drivers on the grid photo for the next race.

The celebration is at canada btw. Molson sponsorship.

Shaun

[balloon_boy]

Originally posted by baddog
actually, well done frans, I hadnt been able to find a picture. Your pictures show just how huge the difference in michaels demeanour on that podium was from his usual manner when winning. To describe him as 'celebrating' is manifestly untrue. If you think that picture on the left is michael smiling then you havent seen a lot of grand prixs in the last 9 years.

In fact he raised his hand once, to acknowledge the fans, in no way celebratory. I remember it as clear as day (it isnt the sort of day one forgets)

Shaun

Shaun,

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your memory is in no way as sharp as my VCR and the pictures posted by Francious are in no way a proper representation of Michael's demeanor on the podium that day. Throughout the podium ceremony Michael was in fact smiling, waving, and nodding to people directly in front of the podium. Was this vintage Michael jumping with a fist in the air? Certainly not, but he was certainly a way happpier man than the two still photos would like us to believe.

It is your choice to accept, condone, or rationalize Michael's behavior that day (or not), but please don't try to rewrite history here.

Also, I would like to apologize for being a contributor to this thread veering off subject and turning into another Senna/Schumacher thread, but in this case I felt the truth deserved representation.