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Ratzenberger: Did he die because of inexperience?


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#51 mr. handsome

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 05:50

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nikos Spagnol


It wasn't my intention to throw this subject into new speculation, I was rather trying to make justice to the facts, just like you did.


My apologies Nikos!!

I didin't realize the tread was started years ago - my mistake indeed!! And I wasn't critising you, in fact, I very much agreed with your post - many normal racing issues added up to the crash. My criticism was directed to the first poster and the subsequent posters who were speculating about "desperation factor", etc - since I thought these speculations were just now brought up.

But like I said, MY MISTAKE, I should have read more carefully the dates of the posts.

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#52 Nikos Spagnol

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 03:04

Quote

Originally posted by mr. handsome

My apologies Nikos!!

[/B]


No need to worry, pal! :wave:

#53 Dudley

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 11:26

What the **** does this have to do with MS. Can you trolls not leave any thread alone, whether the allegation had any merit at all it has NO place here.

Do you go into TNF and spam British GP 1955 thread with "Schumacher would have hit Fangio"

This is about Ratzenberger, a very talented driver would would have had a reasonable season with Simtek but probably wouldn't have got a 2nd.


Yes. Thrilled.

#54 TheMita

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 12:36

I agree Dudley. It's a shame a discussion about Ratzenberger losing his life has to veer off into specualtion and accusations about whether or not MS was sensitive to the situation.

#55 balloon_boy

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 13:39

Quote

Originally posted by Dudley
Yes. Thrilled.


Dudley,

You can post as many still frames of Schumacher looking stern or sad on the podium as you like and you can wish with all your heart he hadn't smiled, waved, and nodded in appreciation througout the majority of the podium ceremony that day, but it won't make it true.

Deal with it.

#56 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 15:11

Firstly from what I've read, the downforce that Roland lost from the failed front wing (as mentioned earlier, it is clearly visible flying off the car from a video placed on a bridge at the Villeneuve corner) caused him to lose control. The loss of downforce at the part of the circuit where the maximum force on the front wing occurs caused it to break and immediately caused an imbalance in the cars downforce. I've read several reports which state that it was that dramatic that his front wheels momentarily lost contact with the tarmac.

He went off at the Villeneuve corner, and the car stopped at Tosa. It was a massive impact, I've seen an amateur video which catches the closest moments of the initial impact and the car is quite high off the ground, I'd estimate a 60 degree angle of it rolling over onto its side along the concrete barrier.

I remember in 1983 Roberto Guerrero went off at the same place in a similar fashion but the car stopped well before Tosa; Roland's car kept rolling and landed back onto the circuit at the Tosa apex.

#57 Dudley

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 15:17

Quote

Dudley,

You can post as many still frames of Schumacher looking stern or sad on the podium as you like and you can wish with all your heart he hadn't smiled, waved, and nodded in appreciation througout the majority of the podium ceremony that day, but it won't make it true.

Deal with it.


And this thread had NOTHING to do with MS in any form so stop posting garbage across it.

#58 cheesy poofs

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 15:19

I've also seen the terrible footage that PLAYLIFE has mentionned.
Roland was merely a passenger once his wing fell of - just like Burti at Spa.

I wouldn't call that inexperience at all, but I would certainly say Paletti's '82 crash in Canada was a result of inexperience.

#59 BorderReiver

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 15:36

Quote

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
I've also seen the terrible footage that PLAYLIFE has mentionned.
Roland was merely a passenger once his wing fell of - just like Burti at Spa.

I wouldn't call that inexperience at all, but I would certainly say Paletti's '82 crash in Canada was a result of inexperience.


I've stayed out of thise thread until now for several reasons. The original contention is wrong, Ratzenberger was not killed by inexperience (as I shall come to later). And anyway the thread has veered off wildly into an immature Schumy slagging session which is wholy unwarented.

However Cheesy I have to disagree with you about Paletti. Even a cursory glance at the footage would tell you that poor Riccardo was totally unsighted as to Pironi's Ferrari until the very last second. It was an appalling incident, but it was just one of those things. It could have happened to anyone behind Pironi, Paletti drew the metaphorical short straw.

As for Ratzenberger, he was killed by a sudden and catastrophic component failure that caused him to loose control of his car, in a very bad place to do so.

These circumstances have killed, off the top of my head, Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna (probably), Patrick Depailler, Elio de Angelis, Peter Revson. . . .the list goes on and on. And all of the names above have one thing in common, experience was certainly not lacking.

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#60 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 15:57

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Originally posted by Nikos Spagnol
Roland wasn't a young rookie willing to impress; actually he was a experienced 31 (some sources say he was indeed 33!) years old sports car driver, who had been given a late chance in Formula One.


His birthdate was in fact later revised. He was infact 33 (almost 34) at the time of his death.
The reason for him to use 1962 instead of 1960 was that he was afraid his age would lessen his chances for a F1 ride. His family has confirmed that his true birthyear was 1960.

#61 cheesy poofs

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 16:04

Quote

Originally posted by BorderReiver

However Cheesy I have to disagree with you about Paletti. Even a cursory glance at the footage would tell you that poor Riccardo was totally unsighted as to Pironi's Ferrari until the very last second. It was an appalling incident, but it was just one of those things. It could have happened to anyone behind Pironi, Paletti drew the metaphorical short straw.



I totally agree with you about Paletti being insighted, but if IIRC, this was the first or second time that year that he set off from the grid. Paletti ( who started 23rd ) from the same side of the grid as Pironi and he never once changed his line. Both Lees ( 25th ) and Boesel ( 21st ) managed - albeit at the last possible second - to avoid the stalled Ferrari.

I still think that Riccardo's inexperience cost him dearly that fateful day.

#62 Group B

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 16:15

Quote

Originally posted by Dudley
What the **** does this have to do with MS. Can you trolls not leave any thread alone , whether the allegation had any merit at all it has NO place here.

Do you go into TNF and spam British GP 1955 thread with "Schumacher would have hit Fangio"


Sadly, no. There are a few people on this forum who will, and do, put their agenda to discredit Michael Schumacher before, above and beyond anything else, in any way possible and on any subject imaginable. The irony in this case is that in trying demonstrate a lack of sensitivty and consideration on the part of MS they are in fact aptly displaying a glaring lack of both qualities themselves. A few months ago they actually stooped to questioning whether or not the brothers looked "sad enough" at their mother's funeral. :

#63 BorderReiver

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 18:48

Quote

Originally posted by cheesy poofs


I totally agree with you about Paletti being insighted, but if IIRC, this was the first or second time that year that he set off from the grid. Paletti ( who started 23rd ) from the same side of the grid as Pironi and he never once changed his line. Both Lees ( 25th ) and Boesel ( 21st ) managed - albeit at the last possible second - to avoid the stalled Ferrari.

I still think that Riccardo's inexperience cost him dearly that fateful day.


If my facts are correct, it was actually his first ever start from the grid. His only other qualification was in Detroit and there he shunted the Osella in the morning warm-up before the race and was unable to start the race proper.

With his death being on the occasion of his first ever start it would be very easy to put the blame firmly on Paletti and his "rookieness". However I still have to disagree, you mention Lees and Boesel getting out of the way, which if I remember correctly (I don't have the footage to hand right now) is correct.

What occurs in these situations is (and I have a little experience here, having had a frightening, but thankfully not injuring shunt in similar circumstances) the first man has a certain amount of time to react to an obstacle in front of him, dependant on speed, distance, vision etc. The man directly following has even less, since you have to factor in distance covered, speed increased, and the guy in fronts reaction time. The man behind the man behind has even less, and so on and so on. Paletti was the last man, it was simply a case of time running out. Riccardo wouldn't have known Pironi was there, not until the car infront took evasive action, then poor Paletti would have been all to aware, but thankfully probably only for little more than a second. I wouldn't be surprised if the poor lad was on the throttle right into Pironi.

He'd have seen the danger alright. However he simply wouldn't have been able to react in time to take his foot off the pedal. This could happen to a rookie or to a World Champion. It's just a reality of racing.

#64 cheesy poofs

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 20:58

Quote

Originally posted by BorderReiver

What occurs in these situations is (and I have a little experience here, having had a frightening, but thankfully not injuring shunt in similar circumstances) the first man has a certain amount of time to react to an obstacle in front of him, dependant on speed, distance, vision etc. The man directly following has even less, since you have to factor in distance covered, speed increased, and the guy in fronts reaction time. The man behind the man behind has even less, and so on and so on. Paletti was the last man, it was simply a case of time running out. Riccardo wouldn't have known Pironi was there, not until the car infront took evasive action, then poor Paletti would have been all to aware, but thankfully probably only for little more than a second. I wouldn't be surprised if the poor lad was on the throttle right into Pironi.



You make a very good point BorderReiver.
AFAIK, Paletti's car was in 3rd gear and travelling in excess of 120mph when the crash occured. I'm just puzzled by the fact that his Osella never changed its course - from his grid position to the moment of impact. Of course, as you clearly pointed out, he would have had only a thousand od a second to react to the unfolding events.

#65 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 03:16

What's frightening when looking back at the early 80's cars, in particular 1982, how close the drivers are to the front of the car. Any frontal impact would have been catastrophic, and it was sadly proven during the season.

I don't know what the dimensional specs were, but I'm willing to bet that the drivers feet would be sitting near or possibly in front of the front axle of the car. This coupled with the short steep nosecones could only lead to disaster in frontal collisions.


Does anybody know or have the FIA technical regulations from as far back as 1982? It would be interesting to compare the safety standards to todays machines in terms of the size of impact zones.

#66 Nikos Spagnol

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 05:22

Quote

Originally posted by BorderReiver


If my facts are correct, it was actually his first ever start from the grid. His only other qualification was in Detroit and there he shunted the Osella in the morning warm-up before the race and was unable to start the race proper.


Border, Paletti had started from the grid in the controversial '82 Imola GP, that aftewards was relegated to non-Championship status. Anyway, it was a Formula One race, so Canada '82 was not the first time the young Italian faced a Grand Prix start.

And no, I don't think inexperience was the cause of that fatal shunt. Actually, seeing the video, others cars ahead made contact trying to avoid stalled Pironi. As PLAYLIFE stated, Paletti only died because cars, at those times, were still very fragile and unsafe. Paletti crashed at no more than 100 mph, and nowadays we had get used to drivers surviving +200 mph crashes.

Remember Gordon Smiley death at Indianapolis pratice that same year?