31 replies to this topic

[engin]

hi

in a pannel mclaren 88 were chosen to be the best car in the history of f1 i would agree that it was one of the most dominant cars in history but i dont really think it was the best .

lots of big names in engine's manifactury were retired from f1 porche , bmw , renualt all were out by the end of 87 and all these engines were fast and powerful the honda engines should have been with williams but honda wanted senna and piquet so when piquet left williams honda left as well supplying engines to lotus and also to mclaren they did pay for frank williams for their contract breaking but i think it didnt help much they never take a race win( williams ).

there wasnt a true rivalery it was only mclaren and other teams were just there to show up their cars and the winners were pretty known senna or prost .

if there is a car to pick i would chose williams 92 .



[This message has been edited by engin (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Don Capps]

Why not the Alfa 158? It only lost a handful of races in what, eight seasons? And it was beating cars much younger & newer (Ferrari) right to the end of its career. Besides, it looks so much nicer than the McLaren & Williams mentioned....

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Hot Rod Otis]

It wasn't hard for McLaren to dominate in 1988. The last year of the turbo era, the only other front running team to run turbos was Ferrari, and they were no match for the Honda. Team Lotus had the Honda, but could hardly be called a front-runner anymore, even with Piquet. The only other turbo runners were Arrows, running the old BMW's, and Zakspeed & Osella (LOL). The atmo runners had either Ford Cosworths which were a little on the old side and under powered and the Judd which was under powered and underdeveloped and were hopelessly outclassed by the turbos. Throw in the 2 best drivers of that era, Prost & Senna and they d@mn well should have been the most dominate car. But the fact they were the dominate car had as much to do with the fact there was no serious challenger to their supremacy. Its kinda like a panel of motorsports writers naming the Oldsmobile Aurora the most dominate engine in the history of the IRL.

My vote for the most dominate car would go to either the Alfa Romeo 158, the Lotus 25 or the Williams FW14B or the Williams FW15C.

[Dennis David]

They’re referring to the modern area I assume? My vote would also go to the Alfa Romeo 158 for domination but for brilliance I would select the Lotus 79 as it changed F1.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Don Capps]

Again, excellent choices, especially the Lotus cars with the Willliams being right there. BTW, my favorite Williams is the FW07 - as I am working on the Team Willy article, I keep finding how much I really like that car.

Overall, I think a Miller has to rate at least a mention....or the Bugatti 35 series

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 04-06-2000).]

[Fast One]

No car can rate as "the best" for me unless it was tested at the old Ringor other of the old demanding tracks that were rendered obsolete for so-called "safety" considerations. Modern track do not test an automobile in the way the old ones did. The Lotus 25 bears consideration, as does the 79, so does the Maserati 250, but the Alfa was dominant for a LONG time, was one car ever so good for so long?

[CVAndrw]

Yeah, I'd like to know who was on this panel and what their line of reasoning was. 15 wins out of 16 GP's may have been just about the highest number and percentage in history but I've always heard that the MP4/4 chassis was an ill handling pig, whose solitary virtue was its ability to transmit all of Osamu Goto's lavish horsepower to the road. Senna's right foot and Prost's brain and hands did all the rest.

I would agree- the best cars in F1 history in terms of absolute domination, in both competition and technological influence, would have to be the Alfa 158 or the Lotus 25. The Mercedes W125 and W196 was pretty damned dominant, too, but maybe they were so dominant and so unique that I don't think anyone seriously attempted to directly imitate them.

I wonder though- if one considers longevity, all around clever, innovative engineering and the ability to deliver wins consistently for a variety of drivers, how about putting the Lotus 72 and the McLaren M23 up there, at least someplace in the top ten?

[Don Capps]

It is a sobering thought to consider that the 72 could have soldiered on for several more years (and been more success than it was) had it been able to continue to use tire designed to let it make the most of its chassis & suspension. Running on tires designed with other setups in mind it still did a good job. A great car.

Probably my favorite or at least co-favorite (with the M7A) McLaren F1 car, the 23 was just great looking and ran great to boot! I really liked it from the git-go.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Fast One]

I thought about mentioning the 72. It WAS a terrific car, but probably not as dominant as the Alfa. The Lotus 25, when you count the 33 as a development, had three plus years as the absolute king of the track. Plus, it was a seminal design, which, I think, has to be considered. What design trends did the 88 Mclaren start?

[This message has been edited by Fast One (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Dennis David]

Fast, that's my point and why I chose the Lotus 79. The car that ushered in ground effects and immediately made all of the other cars on the grid obsolete.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

Should we consider the Cooper T45/51/53's as well? They did nail the coffin shut on front engine cars. I always have felt John Cooper has never been given the credit he deserves. Sure, he was overshadowed by Chapman later, but it was he who showed Colin the way.

[PDA]

Seems to me that the Delage of 1926/7 was pretty good. Even came back and did well in voiturette races in 1934/5 with Seaman driving.

The Alfa 158 was pretty good, but bear in mind that it was also a voiturette design, built becasue Alfa decided they had no chance of competing with MB/Auto Union. In that vein, the W125 was just about unbeatable in the final year of the 750 formula. Post war Alfa had no real competition until ferrari got to its feet and they came out with a sensible 4.5 litre car.

The 54/55 MB W196 was pretty dominant for two years, and probably would have been for longer if they hadn't withdrawn. The Maserati 250F cannot even begin to compare, no matter how beautiful it is.

[Ray Bell]

I'm surprised to not see the Lotus 49 mentioned! It was just so dominant - when it stayed in one piece - that it became the model for everything else, even Jack coming on stream in the end.
Its weakness was its weakness in the rear end frames, the outriggers that held up the rear suspension - it would have won a lot more races without that problem.
1967 to 1970 and still at the front of the field, not bad - especially when cars as good as the M7 came along with the same power unit.
Then the 72 made itself a real milestone. A car to truly love... until you saw the McLaren clone, the M23, which carried on for so long itself. This is GP history from 1967 to 1976... with only a few interloping Brabhams, Tyrrells and Matras getting in the way.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[engin]

hello everybody

actually i made a mistake it wasnt a pannel it was a vote from autosport magazine readers to pick the greatest car in their point of view i dont know how many took part but here is the list .


1- mclaren-honda mp4/4

2- williams-renault fw14b

3- porsche 956/962

4- lotus 49

5- porsche 917

6- lotus 79

7- lotus 72

8- maserati 250f

9- audi quattro

10- lotus 25

11- ford gt 40

12- lancia stratos

13- thrust

14- williams fw18

i also have to apologize the vote was about the greatest car in the century not only f1
so i'm sorry again .

for more details you can get the autosport issue dated january 6 2000

[Huw Jenjin]

Thrust would have to be the greatest racing Car to be voted on to a great racing car list without racing any other vehicle!

There are really many GP Cars to claim "greatest" titles, but you have to qualify "great", thats why it is so hard.
Try using words like "successful" "seminal" "trend setting" "long lived" or even "evocative".
The Willis and MP4s probably have some major claims, but the Coopers, Lotus 25,72,78 and 79 really do it for me.
What is really interesting is to look at the trend setters.
Cooper Mid engine, MP4 Carbon Fibre Tub, Tyrell 01? High nose low wing, Lotus: Mag Wheels,monocoque,structural engine,sponsorship,high wings,Side radiators,semi auto clutch, ground effect, active, thats when you start realising that Lotus were responsible for the really seminal,trend setting, evocative and successful racing cars.

[Huw Jenjin]

Thrust would have to be the greatest racing Car to be voted on to a great racing car list without racing any other vehicle!

There are really many GP Cars to claim "greatest" titles, but you have to qualify "great", thats why it is so hard.
Try using words like "successful" "seminal" "trend setting" "long lived" or even "evocative".
The Willis and MP4s probably have some major claims, but the Coopers, Lotus 25,72,78 and 79 really do it for me.
What is really interesting is to look at the trend setters.
Cooper Mid engine, MP4 Carbon Fibre Tub, Tyrell 01? High nose low wing, Lotus: Mag Wheels,monocoque,structural engine,sponsorship,high wings,Side radiators,semi auto clutch, ground effect, active, thats when you start realising that Lotus were responsible for the really seminal,trend setting, evocative and successful racing cars.

[Ray Bell]

Okay, okay, so what's a Willis?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[PDA]

Ray - I think he must mean Willi's as an abbreviation.

people are so recent in these votes. porsche's C type Auto Union was mid engined, fuelk tank behind driver and in front of engine. MB 125 had a stiff (for the time) chassis, allowing suspension tuning, and introduced understeer set up to allow four wheel drifting. Fiat in 1922 introduced TOHC, 4vpc and hemi heads, which has hardly been improved on since. The Mays brothers introduced high wings in 1956 on their Porsche 500, so many of the features that are given as reasons for deification of later cars were not remotely new. Oh yes, the Lancia D50 of 1954 had the engine as a stressed chassis member, and Jaguar used monocoque construction in 54, well in advance of Chapman.

For me, the car which I would call the "best" didn't have anything revolutionary about it, except its performance - Porsche 917. It made the hairs on the back of your neck stand on end. I had the great priviledge of seeing Pedro Rodriguez carving up the field in the pouring rain in the 1970 Brands Hatch 1000 km in a 917, and maybe that has biased my judgement, but that is one car to which one can truly ascribe the adjective "awesome".

[Joe Fan]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Ferrari 500 which won every GP in 1952 plus all but the last GP in 1953, this works out to be 14 straight races if you don't include the Indy 500. I know part of the reason for its success was that Alfa Romeo withdrew from F1 prior to the 1952 season but maybe they knew they couldn't beat it. Fangio in his Alfa Romeo 159 was having problems beating Gonzalez and Ascari in their Ferrari 375's in the latter part of the 1951 season.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-08-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

I always believed that the introduction of 4-valve twin-cam hemis was the domain of Peugeot in the pre-WW1 days. But I could be wrong... again.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Fast One]

Joe--

I think most of us were limiting ourselves to Formula 1 cars, and of course, the 52 and 53 seasons were run for Formula 2. Great car and driver, but not much competition those years.

[PDA]

Ray - I was under the impression that Peugot copied the Fiat engine. Possibly it was the other way round, and my recollection is in error. I will have to look it up.

[PDA]

JF - I initially thought of mentioning the 500, but the thread title said F1 cars and the 500 was technically an F2 car. Once the scoppe had been expanded, then one has to agre that it was an extremely successful car.

[Joe Fan]

Well guys, technically an F2 car or not, the Ferrari 500 still competed in F1 (by default).

The engine regulations for 1952-53 were 2000cc for normally aspirated and 500cc maximum capacity for supercharged engines. How much different is this from the 1954-60 season regs which were 2500cc for normally aspirated and 750cc for supercharged? Or the engine regs from 1961-65 which were 1500cc maximum engine capacity with no supercharged engines?

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-08-2000).]

[Roger Clark]

PDA, Ray

Peugeot introduced twin cams and 4 valves/cylinder in 1912. It set a fashion in engine design which lasted until 1922 when Fiat went back to 2 valves. THe really trend setting Fiat was the 1923 car which inroduced supercharging to GP racing. Fiat were definitely the leaders in GP design for the first few years afetr the 14/18 war, as Peugeot were for the last few years before it.

[Ray Bell]

To clarify things a little for you Joe, F2 never became F1. It was actually Alfa's withdrawal that led to F1 being sidelined, that withdrawal undoubtedly being because the bigger Ferrari was going to give them a hiding.
F1 races continued to be held, Albi being a notable one. These became the only venues in which the BRM V16 was to show its true pace as it slowly matured to become a racing car.
The next issue is the 750cc part of the 1954 F1 - this size was actually set to enable BRM to use half the V16 if they desired.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[PDA]

RC - thanks for that clarification. i was correct in that Fiat introduced new technology in 23, but got the type of technology very wrong!

[Duane]

I agree with Joe. The Ferrari 500.

The 'history of F1' to me includes the whole modern GP era, even if Grand Prix were run to F2 rules in 52 and 53. F1 refers to the sport of Grand Prix racing. Most fans probably aren't even aware that 'Grand Prix' was slowly eclipsed by the 'F1' moniker to describe the top level of the sport.

Don does a much better job explaining this than I do...

[Ray Bell]

Oh, it's Grand Prix history, not Formula One history? Then there's no doubt about it - Ford V8 Specials win hands down for their dominance of the AGP in 1950 and 1951. Not only did Whiteford trounce the Alfa Monza driven by Rupert Steele in 1950, in 1951 there was a swag of them out in front.
At one stage there was even four Ford V8 engines in the first three places!
Warwick Pratley won after overcoming challenges from Crouch in the Cooper 1100, Bland in the Delahaye, his boss, George Reed, in a single-seater Ford V8 Special and the redoubtable Eldred Norman in the double Mercury.
Now, if we're sensible we'll revert to F1 and leave the little Fazzaz out in the cold. Don't forget that there were GPs run to Formula Junior and F3, Sports Car regs, all sorts of things. Once you bring these in there is no scope for dominance at all.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Huw Jenjin]

willis is indeed an abbreviation i had noticed coming into English publications to describe Sir Frank's fine F1 automobiles.
It is true that you can find earlier examples of each technical advance that i referred to, but what i mean by seminal is that its advantage on that particular vehicle, or the materials technology had jumped such that everybody else quickly adapted to it or got left behind.
The 917 was a ground (and driver)breaking car.
They had pressurised construction tubes originally (I think Frank Gardner was told if the pressure dial went down to drive to the pits, to which he retorted if the dial goes down i will get out!) and an air cooled flat twelve.
Neither the Auto Union, D type or Porsche were trend setters in their particular oddities.They may have been the first, but nobody thought the trend worth following till much later on.
On that basis the March 701 was the first to use ground effects aeerodynamics with their pannier wing shaped fuel tanks. Truth was they were only over styled after thoughts!

[Holy Driver]

Maybe a strange idea, but what about considering the revolutionary 1978 Brabham fan car ? It is the only car coming to my mind with a 100% race winning performance, although of course, because this was only one race, it is hard to judge how dominant the car could have been.

[Alfisti]

Whilst I have a strong bias for the Tipo 158 i do admit it was at a time when the competition was less fierce than the the days of McLaren in 88. Also, the Williams in the year mansell won (92??) was a beast but for some reason his team mate never came close to Nige.

Based on black and white records though, the little Alfa was a stormer over 7 or 8 years i think.

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"Whenever i see an Alfa Romeo i tip my hat" - Henry Ford