83 replies to this topic

[island]

Hi!
A 38s lead after the first lap of the 1968
1000 kilometres de Spa, beating Pedro in the
1971 Dutch GP. And finally: Passing Lauda`s
B3 on the outside of Paddock Hill bend in
the 1974 Race of Champions (after starting
12th, 2.6s behind pole!) Did British member
of this board saw Ickx`Brands Hatch performance?

[Keir]

Jacky could certainly drive in the rain, but a number of his performances were the result of other teams gambling on intermediate tires.For his part, If there was a drop of rain on the track, Jacky demanded full rains.
It paid off at Rouen '68, but at the 'Ring that same year, Jacky was outpaced by Amon, who didn't like the rain at all. The Ferraris and everyone else were on the full rains that day and Jacky looked very ordinary. At Holland in '71, Jacky and Pedro, reveled in the rain, but even that performance came down to low torque V12's and Firestone raintires, Goodyear was light years behind in raintire compounds and the "hand grenade" power delivery of the Cosworth was not what you wanted in the wet!!!

Bottom line. Jacky Ickx, good driver, but nothing special. In fact, one of the luckiest drivers in racing history.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[BRG]

Hey, Island, another one that I know about! This is great!

I was at Brands that day and it was quite a sight. I am sure that tyre choice and make had a lot to do with it, as Keir suggests. But it was still an amazing piece of driving that has stuck in people's minds ever since. As a Belgian, where it rains even on the finest days, Ickx had no fear of the wet and knew that you should use different lines that might be less slippery. But Paddock was (is) a fearsome corner that claimed many of the best drivers even in the dry and anyone who is prepared to attack it like that gets my vote.

The one thing I would disagree with Keir about is his verdict on Ickx. You can't dismiss someone who can win Le Mans six times as just lucky. I think he was very under-rated in F1 terms - if guys like Hulme, Rindt, Hunt and Rosberg can (and deservedly so, of course) win WCs, then Ickx was certainly capable of doing it as well. But there can only be Champion each year and Ickx just never drew the right cards...

But that day at Brands, he was sublime!

------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Huw Jenjin]

Can somebody remind me who would have taken the 1970 World Championship if Rindt hadn't won it?
Would it have been the same person who nearly always outpaced those untalented journeymen Reggazoni and Andretti?
who won Lemans by sheer driving talent in the closing hour in an outdated old Ford shitbox in 1969?
Between 1971 and 1973 I would guess that around ten different drivers were lucky enough to drive a 312P sports prototype, which of them nearly always appeared at the front?
Lucky? Jackie Ickx made his own luck.For sheer finesse, delicacy and talent he would have to be in the top ten.
He may not have been the grittiest, most determined and commited driver, butwhen he knew he had something responsive around him he was easily one of the best.
Read up on his performance in the M23 at the Nurburgring. The result was nothing, but he proved a point that weekend.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Keir
Jacky could certainly drive in the rain, but a number of his performances were the result of other teams gambling on intermediate tires.For his part, If there was a drop of rain on the track, Jacky demanded full rains.
It paid off at Rouen '68, but at the 'Ring that same year, Jacky was outpaced by Amon, who didn't like the rain at all. The Ferraris and everyone else were on the full rains that day and Jacky looked very ordinary. At Holland in '71, Jacky and Pedro, reveled in the rain, but even that performance came down to low torque V12's and Firestone raintires, Goodyear was light years behind in raintire compounds and the "hand grenade" power delivery of the Cosworth was not what you wanted in the wet!!!

Bottom line. Jacky Ickx, good driver, but nothing special. In fact, one of the luckiest drivers in racing history.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

Looking through some old threads in the boredom of New Years Day, I came across this one. I grew up watching a young Jacky Ickx, from the storming F2 Matra days and the Works Lotus Cortinas, Gulf GT40s, Ferrari 312P, Lotus 72, and yes that sublime day at Brands Hatch in the wet, some 6 or 7 years after I 1st saw him drive.I just happened to be spectating at Paddock Hill ;) . I left all of Keir's post quoted to be fair, but I think Jacky was both very, very talented, and persistent, however, in F1, I would say he was unlucky, a bit on the Chris Amon side me thinks,having never won the ultimate crown, but in Sports Cars, Spa, The Ring, The Rain.........awesome I think it was a MN headline of the day that said "The Rainmeister", says it all really, in his day, not many could balance a car in the wet like Ickx.Any additional views from new and old TNFrs alike?

[Spaceframe]

I can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure something was broken in the rear suspension of Lauda's Ferrari 312B3 when Ickx overtook it on the outside of Paddock during the 1974 Race of Champions.

Lauda didn't make a lot of noise about it, but it must've contributed to the outcome.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Spaceframe
I can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure something was broken in the rear suspension of Lauda's Ferrari 312B3 when Ickx overtook it on the outside of Paddock during the 1974 Race of Champions.

Lauda didn't make a lot of noise about it, but it must've contributed to the outcome.

Can anybody elaborate? I know nothing of this and would be interested to find out
I do not recall this, but remember Ickx pulling a move that was supreme in the wet and gave him the lead, whether Lauda had broken suspension or not, it was still a good move.

[fines]

Well, if his suspension was broken that was a rather outstanding drive from Herr Lauda, wasn't it? I mean, there were still how many? Six, seven laps to go, and I believe he still finished second, just a few seconds behind Ickx. I don't recall that being mentioned at all before, all the comments about this race were about Icks, but perhaps nobody was aware of it. Strange since Lauda was still an unsung hero then...

Anyway, even if the thread title is about Ickx in the rain, his 1967 Nürburgring performance is basically all you need to know about his abilities as a driver. Sublime? Revelatory? God like?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by fines
Well, if his suspension was broken that was a rather outstanding drive from Herr Lauda, wasn't it? I mean, there were still how many? Six, seven laps to go, and I believe he still finished second, just a few seconds behind Ickx. I don't recall that being mentioned at all before, all the comments about this race were about Icks, but perhaps nobody was aware of it. Strange since Lauda was still an unsung hero then...

Anyway, even if the thread title is about Ickx in the rain, his 1967 Nürburgring performance is basically all you need to know about his abilities as a driver. Sublime? Revelatory? God like?

I remember it well, just amazing in an F2 car with 1600 c.c. of Cosworth FVA, he made a lot of the F1 cars look slow...............

[john aston]

Ickx's pass on Lauda seemed almost otherworldly on the day - although,to be honest it is the only thing I really can remember about the race, apart from being bloody cold and wet..But Lauda was on the top of his form then and the car was superb ,which made Ickx' commitment all the more memorable.But...I am aware of course of his performances in the Ferrari, although I only saw him race it the once and he was as good as anyone in the world at the time.But post 74..well, I can't say I ever remember one occasion when he showed that form again.He just sort of faded away in GP racing and whilst his sportscar record is outstanding, so are Bell and Stuck's and neither of them were ever going to be world drivers' champion were they?

[Jerome]

Originally posted by Keir


Bottom line. Jacky Ickx, good driver, but nothing special. In fact, one of the luckiest drivers in racing history.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

Ouch! What is your opinion of Jacky's drive on the ring, in 1967 or thereabout, the one that he drove with a F2 car (2 litres!) against the F1 machinery (3 litres)? I believe that was his first F1 race? And was he not forced to start behind the pack, although he had qualified third?

And in what way was he lucky? Yeah, that he still lives, but your remark has some... reciprocation in it.

[Formula Once]

Ickx grew up on bikes and as a kid he did a lot of trial riding very succesfully and he himself thinks that maybe gave him a lot of finesse in the first place. Also, he always loved nature, being in the forests, etc. and he liked things like rain long before he got to race in it. I visited him recently and it was pooring down yet he was standing outside on the drive way waiting, saying 'great weather, isn't it?' I think the trial experience and his love for 'the elements' may have contributed significantly to his performance in the wet but also maybe his speed at the Nürburgring for example or his success in Paris-Dakar. Heat also didn't seem to bother him much, remember he won the Malaysian Group C finale of 1985 (very hot and very, very humid), which I think was his last race as a professional racing driver. Finally, a lot of drivers who do well in the wet tell me that part of them being better than others is also because some of those others seem to take themselves out of the contention before the race even starts, simply because of their state of mind i.e. their dislike of rain. In short, some go 'Great, rain' while others go 'Oh no, it rains'. As for Lauda/ROC/Brands Hatch/1974, I always understood that a rear shockabsorber didin't work properly in the end.

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


Ouch! What is your opinion of Jacky's drive on the ring, in 1967 or thereabout, the one that he drove with a F2 car (2 litres!) against the F1 machinery (3 litres)? I believe that was his first F1 race? And was he not forced to start behind the pack, although he had qualified third?

And in what way was he lucky? Yeah, that he still lives, but your remark has some... reciprocation in it.

It was a 1600 c.c. FVA, not even a 2 litre! They split the grid into F1 and F2 IIRC.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by sterling49


I remember it well, just amazing in an F2 car with 1600 c.c. of Cosworth FVA, he made a lot of the F1 cars look slow...............

Indeed - but see why this thread was closed http://forums.autosp...&highlight=1967
;)

[sterling49]

Interesting, a shame it had to be closed, certainly some strong differences of opinion amongst TNF! Sad though that it had to be closed, as gentlemen, I thought it could be discussed, debated in a gentlemanly style. I make no apology for posting in this dormant thread, I knew nothing of the other one, however, I fully understand if Twinny wants to close this before it gets embittered. I saw both Ickx and Amon, often (very) and am thankful that I did. Gentleman, both of them, let us act like their example please and all will be fine.

[IanDalziel]

Originally posted by Huw Jenjin
Can somebody remind me who would have taken the 1970 World Championship if Rindt hadn't won it?

Erm... Jack Brabham?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by IanDalziel


Erm... Jack Brabham?

Jack was well placed Ian, but Jacky finished runner up to Jochen IIRC.

[IanDalziel]

Originally posted by sterling49


Jack was well placed Ian, but Jacky finished runner up to Jochen IIRC.

Indeed, but if "Rindt hadn't won it" he might well not have stolen those wins at Monaco and Brands Hatch - there's a lot you can do with a well-turned "if"!

[sterling49]

Originally posted by IanDalziel


Indeed, but if "Rindt hadn't won it" he might well not have stolen those wins at Monaco and Brands Hatch - there's a lot you can do with a well-turned "if"!

Agreed Ian, but this was "fact" not "if", Jochen did blitz the 1970 season, Jack played unfortunate bridesmaid and Jacky finished runner up ( in that so beautiful of Ferraris )

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Spaceframe
I can't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure something was broken in the rear suspension of Lauda's Ferrari 312B3 when Ickx overtook it on the outside of Paddock during the 1974 Race of Champions.

Lauda didn't make a lot of noise about it, but it must've contributed to the outcome.

I was spectating at Paddock. My recollection is that Lauda made things very easy for Ickx.

[IanDalziel]

Originally posted by sterling49


Agreed Ian, but this was "fact" not "if", Jochen did blitz the 1970 season, Jack played unfortunate bridesmaid and Jacky finished runner up ( in that so beautiful of Ferraris )

The "if" was not mine.

[Jerome]

Originally posted by scheivlak

Indeed - but see why this thread was closed http://forums.autosp...&highlight=1967
;)

Oooh, I read that thread. I will shut up immediately!

[ErleMin]

Re: the 1974 Race of Champions, regardless of Lauda having suspension problems or "making it easy" for Jacky what took my breath away was the exact same move on Emerson Fittipaldi a few laps earlier. The roar that I heard from that section of the spectators (the Paddock bend dip obscurred my view of the success of the maneuvre) above the engine noises all around is what I will always remember about the Lauda pass almost more than the move itself.
Am I correct in thinking that at the 1968 (?) Spa, Jacky, in the Gulf GT40 had lapped the whole field by lap thirty something (37?). Great days.

[Rosemayer]

You can see why some cars had failures.

http://www.youtube.c...tdBzvPhKg&rel=1

[Spaceframe]

Originally posted by Formula Once
As for Lauda/ROC/Brands Hatch/1974, I always understood that a rear shockabsorber didin't work properly in the end.

It was the thing stopping the shock absorber from bottoming out which broke down - I can't recall the proper English term for it.

[Bonde]

Bump rubber (or bump stop) - sometimes called an 'Aeon'?

[freedman]

Bottom line. Jacky Ickx, good driver, but nothing special. In fact, one of the luckiest drivers in racing history.

I appreciate this post is somewhat dated, but it surely has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read

8 x GP winner
Twice F1 runner up
Twice World Sportscar Champion
6 x Le Mans winner
Paris Dakar Winner
Can Am Champion
Bathurst winner

So he's either the luckiest driver of all time or he had more than a little bit of talent

Having seen him at his most succesful in sportscars, the latter is obviosuly the case.

Anyone who witnessed his drive to the sportscar title in 1982 finale at Brands or hi sincredicle Le Mans fightbackin 1977 knows how sublime (and outright fast) he could be

In the wet? as good as anyone and better than 99.9%. Hans Stuck had a great wet weather reputation, but he wasnt a patch on Ickx

Le Mans? With the reliability levels Kristensen enjoys he would have won more than 6 times

[hipperson]

Here we go ...Ickx on full wets..........another gem from the lens of Nick Loudon.
I know when and where.... do you ?

[john winfield]

Here we go ...Ickx on full wets..........another gem from the lens of Nick Loudon.
I know when and where.... do you ?

Exiting Nouveau Monde July 1968? Are those the steps up to the 'gradins' public enclosures?

[hipperson]

Correct....a winner that day by 2 minutes.

He must have been lucky

[MCS]

Exiting Nouveau Monde July 1968? Are those the steps up to the 'gradins' public enclosures?

Yes they are.

See here: http://www.autodiva....p...34&p=128708 (scroll down)

[john winfield]

Yes they are.

See here: http://www.autodiva....p...34&p=128708 (scroll down)

Nice link, MCS; thanks. By 1968 they probably weren't in use for race meetings, entry to the stand I think being from the Orival end, beyond the apex of Nouveau Monde. In 1977, the weather improved on the Saturday night of the Formula 2 meeting so I slept in the open air on the stepped seating at the exit of the hairpin, with a marvellous view the next day up to the chicane at Six Freres. A group of English enthusiasts joined me in the morning on a trip organised by Marcus Pye.
I would have liked to have seen Ickx at work there in the Ferrari but was too young; my brother was there, but I had to wait until Brands in 1970. Thinking about it, although we tend to remember Pedro at the 1970 BOAC, I think Ickx was mighty impressive there too, until the wipers burned out on the 512. If only he'd hung on at Lotus for one more race in 1975 - at Silverstone, he wouldn't have bothered pitting, would have found the fast outside line around Stowe and Club and would have won by a lap! If he'd qualified in the first place.

[hipperson]

Ickx in contemplation....' Am I feeling lucky today ?'



Nick Loudon again.

Wouldn't say No to a Where & When please !
From other photos I have could it be 1968 French or Dutch ?

[hipperson]

How fab is this....1968 ROC at Brands.Loudon again.

[SEdward]

Hipperson.

Not sure that he is sitting in a Ferrari. Where are all those white "plumber's nightmare" exhaust pipes?

Edward

[Stephen W]

Wouldn't say No to a Where & When please !
From other photos I have could it be 1968 French or Dutch ?

Hipperson. Not sure that he is sitting in a Ferrari. Where are all those white "plumber's nightmare" exhaust pipes?

Edward

Looks very much like an F2 Matra.

[hipperson]

You maybe right...looking again that looks like a fuel injected 4 cyl ?

Edited by hipperson, 14 October 2010 - 14:59.

[jj2728]

I think it's the F2 Matra at the '67 German Grand Prix...

[hipperson]

Maybe...he was there

http://en.wikipedia....rman_Grand_Prix

[arttidesco]

I remember Jacky hauling in my main man Niki Lauda at Brands in 1974 like it was half an hour ago not 37 years ago. What ever allowed Jacky to go around the outside at Paddock it must taken a fair amount of courage and self belief.

[elansprint72]

I remember Jacky hauling in my main man Niki Lauda at Brands in 1974 like it was half an hour ago not 37 years ago. What ever allowed Jacky to go around the outside at Paddock it must taken a fair amount of courage and self belief.

Nah; he was just lucky!


Just looked back through the thread; interesting that the individual who posted that ridiculous statement did not make further comment.

Edited by elansprint72, 14 October 2010 - 20:07.

[Formula Once]

Nah; he was just lucky!


Just looked back through the thread; interesting that the individual who posted that ridiculous statement did not make further comment.

Jacky Ickx; a great driver, an ever greater person still.

[Aykay]

I was fortunate to be at Brands and witness that move, spectating from the old Shell stand at the top of Paddock. I was also at Mallory in 1967 for the F 2 race which must be one of the wettest meetings I've been to. Ickx had to give best to John Surtees that day but he was the only one who could stay with him. Despite spinning off four times he never gave up finally finished forth 4 laps behind.

[kayemod]

I remember a DSJ race report in Motor Sport some time around 1970, Jenks was writing about a very wet race at I think Zandvoort. He commented that the delicacy of throttle control demonstrated by Ickx in the conditions, together with his obvious speed advantage, made most of the others in the same race look like amateurs. Even allowing for the inherent advantage of a smooth Ferrari V12 against an early DFV, I think that says a lot about the man's talent. You had to be rather more than "Lucky" to make an impression on Jenks.

[brooster51]

I've always thought that Ickx could/should/ have been or was one of the best.

People do forget that he was also in the F2 field in the 66 Grand Prix of Germany in a 1 liter F2 Matra. He was the fastest qualifier in class at 8'52.0", a lap time that would have placed him somewhere around 16th on the F1 grid. Not as good as 67, but still good.

In 66, the comparison between fastest qualifiers in class, Icks in F2 with a Matra MS5 with 1.0 liter Cosworth SCA, 140 hp / 405 kg = 2.9 kg per hp vs Clark in F1 in a Lotus 33 with 2.0 liter Coventry-Climax FWMV, 240 hp / 549 kg = 2.3 kg per hp.

In 67, the comparison between fastest qualifiers in class, Ickx in F2 with a Matra MS7 with 1.6 liter Cosworth FVA, 210 hp / 425 kg = 2 kg per hp (8'14.0 and 1st in class and would have been 3rd in F1) vs Clark in F1 in a Lotus 49 with 3.0 liter Ford-Cosworth DFV, 408 hp / 513 kg = 1.3 kg per hp at (8'04.1). Ickx qualified in front of Gurney, McLaren in Eagles, Surtess/Honda, Brabham, Amon/Ferrari, etc.

Since I am a former statistician, I do know that numbers always don't tell the truth, but these still they give an indication . . .

Ickx was very, very good.

[seccotine]

The initial statement was obviously inept but that dicussion reveals we're talking about facts that happened 35 to 44 years ago. That was a very different time.
First of all, we have to remember Ickx had quite little experience when he reached F1. Motorbikes, tourism cars (Hillmans, Cortinas) and F3/F2 during a year and a half before he started driving GT40s (1966) and F1s, in 1967, at the age of 22.
That is amazing, especially by comparison with today's drivers, who have an incredible amount of races behind them (karts, F3 and sometimes GP2, etc.), a very "academic" and rational training.
On the contrary, Ickx was what then called a natural driver. Talent, bravery, intuition. I have no doubt he would be good today with those qualities, but would he be comitted enough? And wouldn't all the requirements kill his skills?

[hipperson]

This from the British GP 1971.....I have this as a Ferrari B2 Shovelnose.........I think it has an Italian name..'Span....' or something



His luck was out this day...DNF

Photo crdiet : Loudon

[freedman]

This from the British GP 1971.....I have this as a Ferrari B2 Shovelnose.........I think it has an Italian name..'Span....' or something



His luck was out this day...DNF

Photo crdiet : Loudon

Spazzaneve is the word you're looking for I believe

[john winfield]

This from the British GP 1971.....I have this as a Ferrari B2 Shovelnose.........I think it has an Italian name..'Span....' or something



His luck was out this day...DNF

Photo crdiet : Loudon

Lovely shot! I can't remember seeing those 1971 Ferraris race anywhere except Silverstone with those front deflectors - I think they look rather good. Not sure whether they were just for aerodynamics or part of the attempt to solve the tyre vibration problem. Much to my (13 year old) disgust, Stewart sliced past Ickx right in front of me at Stowe before doing the same to Regazzoni a couple of laps later. Red cars heading backwards from then on!
Photos of the start of that 1971 race are entertaining. While Dean Delamont confuses the front few rows, Regazzoni sets off on his own, Fittipaldi fills Regga's slot while Jacky Ickx blasts through from the third row to take second by the Motor Bridge! Happy days.

[Tim Murray]

I think it has an Italian name..'Span....' or something

Spazzaneve is the word you're looking for I believe

This is the 312B3 Spazzaneve (snowplough):



I don't know whether any of the 312B2 variants ever had any particular nicknames.