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Schumacher and Rosberg Scorecard 2010 [merged]


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#1 potmotr

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:33

Well, now that this deal looks done, time to compare the fortunes of the two Germans.

I think Schumacher will blow Rosberg into the weeds personally...

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#2 Mungo Fangio of the Year

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:37

Only if he gets number 1 treatment, if they are equal, they will be equal.

#3 Anomnader

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:37

I think it will be impossibly close, no blowing into the weeds at all.

Same with Alonso vs Massa and Lewis vs Button, all are good drivers and no 2nd string drivers amongst them.

If Rosberg is miles behind then the jury will make its verdict and I think it will be a judgement on Rosberg then it will be on MS.

#4 potmotr

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:42

If Rosberg is miles behind then the jury will make its verdict and I think it will be a judgement on Rosberg then it will be on MS.


From what I've read in Autosport's season review, Williams lost faith in Rosberg this year.

So if Williams felt that way after Rosberg was paired with Nakajima, I worry for his career if he goes up against Schumacher.

Schumacher has owned every team mate he's had.

#5 Dispenser89

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:43

I think Rosberg will edge it.

#6 Anomnader

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:45

And he's always seemed too timid, not a Irvine type character that can handle being beat.

Rosbergs not really in a good situation, beat MS and it will be because MS has lost it and not because Rosberg is great. If he loses, then it will be, ha ha losing against an old driver.

Should have took the McLaren seat when he was able....

#7 GIBF1

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:48

It all depends on Michaels fitness, like Massa it's all good and well pounding around a track in karts but the rigours and strains of an F1 car and a full Grand Prix is something else

If Michael is fit i think he beats Nico, but i don't think he blows him away like some people are saying

Welcome back Michael :D

#8 potmotr

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:50

Rosberg also faces the horrible situation of being up against the boss and the boss's great mate.

Schumacher and Brawn have worked together for more than ten years and have bagged seven championships together.

That's success unrivalled in F1.

Mercedes paid for Schumacher's first race.

I think he'll feel quite isolated quite soon.

If he'd been with Quick Nick things would have been much easier.

#9 gerry nassar

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Posted 22 December 2009 - 23:51

I think the fact that Rosberg is in the other Merc seat was one of the reasons Schumacher came back. Schuamcher will have no trouble beating him though it may be closer in qualifying.

#10 Muz Bee

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:04

Rosberg also faces the horrible situation of being up against the boss and the boss's great mate.

Schumacher and Brawn have worked together for more than ten years and have bagged seven championships together.


That's the crunch. Nico has to build a relationship with Ross who already has one with the great one. Rosberg I think will be on the outer sooner or later.
The time it took the deal to be sealed may relate to how Michael secures No1 status (as he has done for nearly all his career). Rosberg won't have a bar of deferring to Michael as his contract was not done on that basis. Of course he may not be good enough regardless of his treatment at Mercedes.

#11 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:08

I think we'll soon be able to tell what the situation is, Nico is young and lets his emotions express themselves on his face, if before/during the first few races his expressions starts resembling a slapped arse we will have a incling that something not happy with him, and its not going to be, can you imagine what questions he's going to be asked by the media, its just going to be,

whats it like being MS team mate?

Will the media be bothered about him at all?

#12 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:10

Rosberg also faces the horrible situation of being up against the boss and the boss's great mate.

Schumacher and Brawn have worked together for more than ten years and have bagged seven championships together.

That's success unrivalled in F1.

Mercedes paid for Schumacher's first race.

I think he'll feel quite isolated quite soon.

If he'd been with Quick Nick things would have been much easier.


Agree 100%

#13 billkaos

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:13

I think Schumacher learned from Ferrari how to handle a number 2, I mean Felipe Massa. I think he will do the same here, tutor Rosberg this year, then he will retire and let Rosberg be the number 1. Michael may drive this year, but age will certainly be a problem 2-3 years from now.

Edited by billkaos, 23 December 2009 - 00:14.


#14 potmotr

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:14

The only guys who got near Schumacher in his career were Brundle, Herbert and Barrichello.

All of those guys are better than Rosberg I reckon, tougher too.

#15 Slowinfastout

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:19

The only guys who got near Schumacher in his career were Brundle, Herbert and Barrichello.

All of those guys are better than Rosberg I reckon, tougher too.


Rosberg is still an unknown quantity to me... he could well have been champion in the 2009 Brawn GP, who knows?

He's definitely going no2 driver in 2010 though... let's see if he's gonna talk about it like Rubens :cat: :yawnface:

#16 Raziel

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:23

Well 2006-Schumacher would've been better but 2010-Schumacher (+ 3 years out of F1) hmm I donĀ“t know..

This could be a career killer for Nico but also wind at his back :well::)




#17 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:31

The only guys who got near Schumacher in his career were Brundle, Herbert and Barrichello.

All of those guys are better than Rosberg I reckon, tougher too.


Well, I would amend that, if you look at Brundle vs MS, Brundle very closely matched MS, Brundle beat MS on occasion as much as MS beat him, the problem was that he was too close and Flav got rid of him, much like Trulli and Alonso.

#18 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:39

Brundle beat MS on occasion as much as MS beat him.

No, not quite. MS still beat Brundle the vast majority of the time. And when Brundle *did* beat Schumi, there was usually some other 'good'(no sarcasm) reason for it. Just like when Massa beat Schumi.

Anyways, I'm a little concerned. Its going to be nearly impossible to judge his level of performance going up against somebody who we all very little clue on just *how* good he is. Rosberg has been beaten as a rookie, but fared very well against some push-overs after that, showing occasions of *possible* brilliance.

If Rosberg wins, its because Schumacher is over-it; too old; not fit; etc etc.

If Schumi wins, its because he's freakin GOD.

The question is really how much does one lose when being out of open-wheel racing for 3 years in their late 30's? No one can be sure. Not in this day and age. It could be minor. Or it could be a major problem. The first few weeks of testing will be interesting.



#19 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:41

No, not quite. MS still beat Brundle the vast majority of the time. And when Brundle *did* beat Schumi, there was usually some other 'good'(no sarcasm) reason for it. Just like when Massa beat Schumi.



Actually, no, I suggest you go and look up the results and many times when *Schumi* did beat Brundle there was also some other good reason for it.

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#20 slideways

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:45

Rosberg will have the advantage in the first few races, but Schumi will still be ahead of him.

#21 potmotr

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:46

The question is really how much does one lose when being out of open-wheel racing for 3 years in their late 30's? No one can be sure. Not in this day and age. It could be minor. Or it could be a major problem. The first few weeks of testing will be interesting.


Mario Andretti was racing a Champ Car until he was, what, 53?

And that was when Champ Car was at its peak.

#22 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:52

Mario Andretti was racing a Champ Car until he was, what, 53?

And that was when Champ Car was at its peak.

And almost 20 years ago.......

#23 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:53

many times when *Schumi* did beat Brundle there was also some other good reason for it.

Yes - Schumi was almost always faster.

#24 P123

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:54

Well, now that this deal looks done, time to compare the fortunes of the two Germans.

I think Schumacher will blow Rosberg into the weeds personally...


Rosberg was sometimes beaten by Nakajima so I don't think he will trouble Schumacher. I always thought the amount of faith WIlliams placed in him was strange, especially considering their very public criticisms of most of their previous drivers.

#25 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 00:56

Yes - Schumi was almost always faster.


Nope, Brundle had a lot of car problems

Go check it out, here you go
http://www.formula1....ts/season/1992/

They was so evenly matched that it was a disgrace Brundle was got rid off.

#26 Slowinfastout

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:00

Rosberg was sometimes beaten by Nakajima so I don't think he will trouble Schumacher. I always thought the amount of faith WIlliams placed in him was strange, especially considering their very public criticisms of most of their previous drivers.


sadly the Williams team seems to progressively have been losing the plot in the latest years over a surprising number of issues...

For example the flip-flopping comments on the Cosworth engines by Patrick Head not too long ago.. :drunk:

The closer they got to the FIA, the silliest it went... looked like that to me anyway.

#27 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:05

Nope, Brundle had a lot of car problems

Go check it out, here you go
http://www.formula1....ts/season/1992/

They was so evenly matched that it was a disgrace Brundle was got rid off.

Schumi was by far, the faster driver. Brundle has admitted he was astounded at how good Schumacher was.

They were not evenly matched. How many times was Brundle ahead and faster when he had troubles?

#28 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:15

South Africa
MS 4th
MB Clutch

Mexico
MS 3rd
MB Engine

Brazil
MS 3rd
MB Collision

Spain
MS 2nd
MB spin

San Marino
MS spin
MB 4th

Monaco
MS 4th
MB 5th

Canada
MS 2ns
MB Transmission

France
MS Collision
MB 3rd

Britain
MS 4th
MB 3rd

Germany
MS 3rd
MB 4th

Hungarian
MS Broken Wing
MB 5th

Belgian
MS 1st
MB 4th

Italy
MS 3rd
MB 2nd

Portuguese
MS 7th
MB 4th

Japan
MS Gearbox
MB 3rd

Australia
MS 2nd
MB 3rd




When they both had working cars, they finished
MS 4
MB 3


Edited by Anomnader, 23 December 2009 - 01:18.


#29 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:18

South Africa
MS 4th
MB Clutch

Mexico
MS 3rd
MB Engine

Brazil
MS 3rd
MB Collision

Spain
MS 2nd
MB spin

San Marino
MS spin
MB 4th

Monaco
MS 4th
MB 5th

Canada
MS 2ns
MB Transmission

France
MS Collision
MB 3rd

Britain
MS 4th
MB 3rd

Germany
MS 3rd
MB 4th

Hungarian
MS Broken Wing
MB 5th

Belgian
MS 1st
MB 4th

Italy
MS 3rd
MB 2nd

Portuguese
MS 7th
MB 4th

Japan
MS Gearbox
MB 3rd

Australia
MS 2nd
MB 3rd

And this proves what, exactly? :well:

#30 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:22

When they both had working cars, they finished
MS 4
MB 3

And when they didn't? Those performances are invalid?

Sorry man, but 'ahead when both finished' is quite a flawed system for determining teammate comparisons. Especially when out of the whole calendar, they only finished together 7 times.

#31 Talisker

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:23

Rosberg is still an unknown quantity to me...


I tend to find that if a driver remains an unknown quantity after they've been in F1 for three years, it's because they're pretty unremarkable. Not bad by any means, but not in the top drawer either.

#32 Slowinfastout

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:24

And this proves what, exactly? :well:


The very fact there is a M.Schumacher-/M.Brundle discussion in a M.Schumacher/N.Rosberg thread is mind-boggling!

#33 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:25

The very fact there is a M.Schumacher-/M.Brundle discussion in a M.Schumacher/N.Rosberg thread is mind-boggling!

Not really. We're talking about how Schumi will do against a teammate by comparing how he did to past teammates. Makes pretty good sense to me.

#34 Anomnader

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:27

And when they didn't? Those performances are invalid?

Sorry man, but 'ahead when both finished' is quite a flawed system for determining teammate comparisons. Especially when out of the whole calendar, they only finished together 7 times.



But I'm very sure you would use it when it happen to suit your purposes,;)


Even MS win could have easily gone down to Brundle as but for Schumacher enjoying better fortune in the timing of a pit stop, Brundle would have won the Belgian GP.
Brundle was the closest to MS and even he was strangly dropped afterwards, Brundle did after all do well against Senna in F3

Back to Rosberg, as mentioned is he better?

Rosberg needs to beat MS, otherwise his reputation as a future WDC will be doubted.

Edited by Anomnader, 23 December 2009 - 01:39.


#35 metz

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:30

Actually, Nelson Piquet was the ONLY one that ever beat Michael.
http://www.f1-facts....es/M.Schumacher
edit; With Irvine close in '99

Edited by metz, 23 December 2009 - 01:34.


#36 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:33

But I'm very sure you would use it when it happen to suit your purposes, even if you care not to admit it.

Why would I care? I was never a Schumacher fan. What purposes do I have in 'twisting' facts here? Surely, this is only a case of projection on your side.

Even MS win could have easily gone down to Brundle as but for Schumacher enjoying better fortune in the timing of a pit stop, Brundle would have won the Belgian GP


Awesome.

Still doesn't change that Schumacher was clearly the better of the two during their time together.

#37 Slowinfastout

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:33

Not really. We're talking about how Schumi will do against a teammate by comparing how he did to past teammates. Makes pretty good sense to me.


Well, when I consider all the different things that happened in my life between these two occurrences it boggles my mind.... guess I should have specified that..

#38 DaleCooper

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:33

Actually, no, I suggest you go and look up the results and many times when *Schumi* did beat Brundle there was also some other good reason for it.



Errr, if you want to know the raw pace difference, check the qualifying stats, that would be 16-0 in Schumacher's favour. If you want to compare race performances, the results were a lot closer (though still easily in Michael's favour), which is no surprise as Brundle had experience, and Michael was driving most circuits for the first time. Experience counts for a lot initially, if you are up against a rookie.

As most people who have watched the sport for the last 20 years already know, Schumacher eventually made race performances his strength, but it was not so lop-sided at the beginning of his career. When he started, drivers had to do a good job looking after their tyres, or they would have to do more pitstops. Prost was a master at this. Schumacher was not, at least not then, and before he mastered it, the rules changed and he was able to take advantage of the short sprint stints by basically racing flat out all the time. Schumacher is a driver that always relied on his ultimate speed, he was able to consistently reproduce ultra-fast laps consistently over an entire race. But in 92/93, that was not the way to drive as the tyres would wear too much and he would have to either drive on badly worn tyres, or come in for a change, hence losing time. To get that balance right was not so easy, and his superior speed did not always pay off later in the race. Ultimate speed exacts a high price on the wear of the tyres. Also remember that Bennetton had no real traction control to speak of in those years until Monaco 93, and hence McLaren and Williams had better tyre wear than Bennetton, which further compounded Schumacher's problem. To finish better, you had to at times drive slower, something which he didn't really employ until ~2002. It will be interesting how he will adapt his driving approach for next year.

Every year provides a different test for the drivers, although it's not always obvious to the layman's eye. It's what keeps me tuning in.

Roll on 2010!


Cooper

#39 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 01:35

Well, when I consider all the different things that happened in my life between these two occurrences it boggles my mind.... guess I should have specified that..

Sorry, dude, but his past is still relevant.

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#40 dabrasco

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:39

Rosbergs not really in a good situation, beat MS and it will be because MS has lost it and not because Rosberg is great. If he loses, then it will be, ha ha losing against an old driver.

Should have took the McLaren seat when he was able....


you are right, Rosberg can hardly win in this situation....

#41 krapmeister

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:42

Where is Kar?

I have an idea that he may tip Schumi over Rosberg - nothing certain, just a feeling...  ;)

#42 Alfisti

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:52

Gee i reakon MS has his work cut out, these are different cars, no refuelling and I rate Nico as quickish, quick enough tobe more than a pest.

I have to back Nico if the car is competitive.

#43 r4mses

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 02:56

you are right, Rosberg can hardly win in this situation....


On short-term, ye. But if all this "experience is sooo important in F1"-blabla is correct, he has the best on his side and there's a lot to learn.

#44 evo

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 03:13

this thread smells of a vettel v webber discussion - experience vs speed vs strength of previous teammates, but somehow reversed and twisted.

My opinion is that Rosberg will have the upper hand at first, with MS matching in the 2nd half of the season, 2 wins each.



#45 Turbo4

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 03:32

Schumacher will smash him, Rosberg will get shown up as the pretender he is.

#46 Arion

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:02

Schumacher obviously thinks he will be comfortably faster than Rosberg otherwise he wouldn't have signed for Mercedes. I think he will be outpaced and he will retire after one season.

#47 WebBerK

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:29

Uhmmm...
Don't know...
If Barbie wasn't capable of dealling with Webber, how could he possibly outpace Schumy :well:

The big question mark is... can we start calling him Nicochello :p

#48 rookie

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:36

Schumacher get's my vote, just can't see Rosberg having the ability to beat him over a season, That said I don't think its going to be a case of him never outqualifying Schumi or never finishing in front of him, Rosberg is quick, but Schumacher is better.

#49 Schuperman

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 05:23

Well, I would amend that, if you look at Brundle vs MS, Brundle very closely matched MS, Brundle beat MS on occasion as much as MS beat him, the problem was that he was too close and Flav got rid of him, much like Trulli and Alonso.


Off-topic.

Brundle beat MS on occasion as much as MS beat him? Where do you get that impression?

MS out-qualified him something like 16 - 0.

When both completed the race, Brundle had never finished ahead of MS. When MS managed to complete the race, all were in podiums.

And this is what you call as a closely contested?

Edited by Schuperman, 23 December 2009 - 05:25.


#50 wdh

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:00

I don't think Rosberg is going to get "Number One" status.
Or even actual equality.
I have no doubt whatsoever that he will be the de facto Number Two.
Even if he does manage to put in some quick laps to start with.

Rosberg now faces even more of an uphill struggle than Button having joined Hamilton's team.
While Ferrari's internal struggle is going to be interesting, there simply isn't going to be one with Brawn Merc.
One man is always going to have a direct line to the boss.