647 replies to this topic

[jeze]

The Vettel hype has gone a bit to far in my opinion, and these days he's mentioned most of the time alongside Lewis and Fernando, despite have never won a championship to show for it.

The case is quite clear in my opinion: From Silverstone onward the Red Bull was the class of the field at least during six days, and clearly the car to beat. Of course he won three of those, fine, but then again Button had a 100 % rate in the beginning of the season when he had the car to beat. Alonso had a similar streak in 2006, where he had to fight of Michael Schumacher as well. What happened to Vettel?

1, Melbourne: Couldn't resist wheelbanging with Kubica, when he should just have let him past. Game over.
2, Sepang: Spun in the wet without featuring, so much for rainmaster.
3, Shanghai: Well, OK, rainmaster on his day.
4, Sakhir: Could have beaten Button there, but fended off Trulli well.
5, Barcelona: Victim of Massa's KERS system, still did well.
6, Monaco: Off the pace all weekend, then ended it in Ste Devote wall, not very well done.
7, Istanbul: Went off during the first lap, then failed to beat team mate.
8, Silverstone: Schumi-esque dominant victory.
9, Nürburgring: Beaten soundly by Mark Webber (!), just fended of Massa's slower Ferrari.
10, Hungaroring: Qualified badly, then hit Kimi in T1. Game over.
11, Valencia: Bad start, then way too slow before engine failure. Not the fastest car there, but still not fast enough.
12, Spa: Bad mistake in final Q3 run, something that no top driver can afford. Should have won easily.
13, Monza: Beaten by Alonso's inferior Renault with the same engine.
14, Singapore: Had equal car to Lewis, but couldn't settle for second and sped in pitlane. Another individual mistake.
15, Suzuka: Did what he should, and did it very well. Compliments.
16, Interlagos: Rain master?
17, Abu Dhabi: Same as Suzuka, when Hamilton got into trouble, he took the opportunity.

That makes for some interesting reading. I can't see that he did anything exceptional this season, it just seemed a wasted opportunity to my mind. It's difficult to assess how good Webber actually is, with regards to he facing no proper top drivers before he encountered Vettel. I rate him just above the midfield drivers, and to my mind that means that Vettel's lack of margin over him suggests that the youngster isn't the superstar people claim him already to be.

I'm not saying that he'll never become a WDC/the best driver, but I'm just saying that he's not there yet. That's why I find him overrated at the moment. Does anyone actually agree with me?

Edited by Victor_RO, 30 December 2009 - 17:40.

[PNSD]

For once I think I will agree with you here.

He is over-rated.

Vastly quick, but over-rated still. He was the qualifier of the year, there is no doubt about his speed! He equals Lewis in that respect, but unlike Lewis Vettels racecraft is just plain shocking. Even compared to Webber!

I feel its a big let down to what could be a great driver.

People make the excuse of being young/inexperienced/give him time. I by no means am a Lewis fan but I will never forget Aus 07 and Hamiltons rocket start. He was confortable racing wheel-to-wheel from the go and has since made it look easy whilst Vettel has done the opposite imo.

I should add when it comes to raw speed I rate Vettel alongside Lewis and Alonso, but as a complete racer, he still has a long way to go.

Edited by PNSD, 30 December 2009 - 17:15.

[Carlo's]

Totaly agreed with you jeze. Vettel is quiet good driver but at this moment he doesn't deserve to be named as "impressive driver".

[tkulla]

Not overrated. He beat Webber in the same car, and I rate Mark highly. Webber has been one of the best qualifiers in F1 for a while, an Seb dominated him in this area. Injury or not, this is highly impressive.

I think Hamilton and Alonso are more overrated than Vettel. Alonso's reputation was built almost entirely on beating Trulli (barely) and Fisi at Renault, where he was the favored son. And Hamilton's rep is based on one season against Alonso and two against a mediocre teammate with #2 status. That's not to say that they're not great drivers (I believe they are), but just that the supposed gap between them and other drivers is likely much narrower than most think.

[Victor_RO]

Definitely not at his peak. Wouldn't call him completely "overrated", but I'll say that he does have some way to go before becoming a truly complete driver. But then again, none of the greats were the complete package from the get-go. It takes time to mature to a fully great F1 driver.

[beckenlima]

Right now I wouldn’t said that he is overrated, but next season will be crucial for him to prove how worth he is. The ban of refueling will put his major weakness — the lack of overtaking skills — in the spotlight.

How he will cope with that will be the key factor on our perception of how good he is.

[BMW_F1]

Vettel reminds me of Kimi, his race pace is his primary weapon but he makes more mistakes.. If he gets stuck behind a slower driver his race is pretty much over..
I prefer a more aggressive driving style like Massa, Lewis or Alonso..

Edited by BMW_F1, 30 December 2009 - 17:33.

[alg7_munif]

He needs more experince which he will get and he showed that he is good in the wet.

[BMW_F1]

Alonso's reputation was built almost entirely on beating Trulli (barely) and Fisi at Renault, where he was the favored son

2005/2006 were his best years.. Hardly any driver this decade has performed at this level..

[SeanValen]

I think people are still trying to compare Vettel to Schumi, that's maybe why he's looking like a threatening driver of the future, he has talent definately, whether he is as consistent as you would expect someone of his hype to be, we will see.


I think Schumacher coming back now, only makes his work look even more harder, and others, because you got quite a few talented drivers iin the field now, it seems close, so his improvement when it comes, may not set the world alight, but then Button got a title in 2009, by having such a advantage earlier on, and people will look the other way if you get a title. But title does not always mean your better then the rest, a good team makes alot of drivers look good, look at Schumi in 2005, he put in alot of very good drives for small points, but the public expects top drivers to visit podiums otherwise you get lost in the grid order after that.

I think there is a fan in the world who can say pretty much any driver is overatted, because f1 is so complicated with the team aspect/car performance, and driver skills.

Special all time Super Boost Respect bucket:
Michael Schumacher

Grade A Super Collection Bucket Driver Skills:
Alonso
Kimi(if he comes back)
Hamilton

Have titles-collection bucket respect

Vettel-penciled in- in Grade A and B
Massa penciled in- in Grade A and B
Button penciled in-in Grade A and B




Grade B Collection Bucket:
Button-if he challenges Hamilton well, will get more respect and get into Grade A collection bucket, goodluck, the title in 2009 Button knows don't mean much if he doesn't do well against Hamilton,
Massa-just needs to defeat Alonso or put him under some pressure/and get into Grade A, and cement his Kimi era success with a followup that showed perhaps Kimi wasn't doing that badly after all,
Vettel-still alot to prove, speed potential is there.


Grade C- etc
Sean Valen penciled in Grade V on a tractor around Spa

Edited by SeanValen, 30 December 2009 - 17:34.

[Hippo]

He has the potential to become great. He isn't there yet. Too many mistakes and not consistent enough. If he improves himself like Massa did (who suffered from the same issues) he'll have a shot at WDC again in the future. Let's see how he does against a Webber in top form. I reckon it will be quite close.

[Alx09]

He is a very good driver, but he is overrated. He is not in the same league as Hami, Schumi and Alonso - Yet.

[SAFC09]

I'd say he is at this moment in time, there's no doubting his raw speed, stick him on pole and the chances are you won't see him for the rest of the race

Put him off the front row and he seems lost, as people have said, at this stage in his career he hasn't got the race craft - Bahrain stuck behind Trulli is a prime example, but he's still young and i'm sure his race craft will develop

IMO the top 4 drivers are Lewis, Button, Alonso and Schumacher, if Seb can improve his craft on track he'll be well entrenched in with them four drivers, add Massa aswell

No doubt he's a fantastic young talent but i think Lewis has that little bit extra

Add a poll btw

[Group B]

Not overrated. He beat Webber in the same car, and I rate Mark highly. Webber has been one of the best qualifiers in F1 for a while, an Seb dominated him in this area. Injury or not, this is highly impressive.

I think Hamilton and Alonso are more overrated than Vettel. Alonso's reputation was built almost entirely on beating Trulli (barely) and Fisi at Renault, where he was the favored son. And Hamilton's rep is based on one season against Alonso and two against a mediocre teammate with #2 status. That's not to say that they're not great drivers (I believe they are), but just that the supposed gap between them and other drivers is likely much narrower than most think.

He has to get a bit more consistent and gain some experience, but on the whole I think he's the 'real deal' as they say.

[Don_Humpador]

He reminds me of the old Massa in the sense that when things are good for him, he can be blisteringly fast, and when in the lead and in a rhythm, unbeatable on his day. But when the going gets tough he struggles and makes mistakes.

Good in the wet, although I think the 2009 Red Bull car overstated his ability somewhat.

Overrated? I don't think so. Not at his peak? Definitely.

[BMW_F1]

I personally would pick Kubica over him...
Kubica in his second year of Formula 1 was way more consistent than Vettel.

[SeanValen]

Once he comes to Mercedes and has a season with Schumi in a way like Ferrari had MS and Massa in 2006, and Massa learning from Michael, then Vettel will be Mercedes primed for a large part of his career, teacher Schumi maybe needed.

[George Costanza]

He is no Michael Schumacher. If anything, Alonso is closer to Schumi than anyone...

I didn't get that when they were calling him the next Schumi. He hasn't done anything remotely what Schumi has done (in an above average car, mind you).

But, his peak has not hit yet.

Edited by George Costanza, 30 December 2009 - 17:57.

[mstar]

vettel lacks the race craft of alonso, hammy, button the RB was on the pace of brawn by 4th race but button made the difference. When he is out in the front he is fantastic but put him behind and wen he has to pass people he struggles.

[Nathan]

I think Hamilton and Alonso are more overrated than Vettel.

I agree.

[P123]

He is no Michael Schumacher. If anything, Alonso is closer to Schumi than anyone...

I didn't get that when they were calling him the next Schumi. He hasn't done anything remotely what Schumi has done (in an above average car, mind you).

But, his peak has not hit yet.

He won with the Red Bull junior team..... Overall, he's shown excellent speed to date. He needs more consistency but that should come with experience.

[BlackCat]

depends how/where you rate him.
top ten? yes.
the best? no.

[Galko877]

As much as I like Sebi, I think yes, at the moment he is a bit overrated and he still has to live up to the hype. He might be on his way, but he is not yet there.

[Sardukar]

Its pretty common knowledge that the 2009 Red Bull was the worst performer in traffic so to everyone saying he is bad when behind or trying to overtake, you need to take into consideration the car.

[Mungo Fangio of the Year]

Over-rated, but just a tad. He will learn!

[patgaw]

Alonso or Kubica would win WDC in Red Bull this year

Vettel is fast but he is making too much stupid mistakes.

Edited by patgaw, 30 December 2009 - 18:27.

[SAFC09]

Its pretty common knowledge that the 2009 Red Bull was the worst performer in traffic so to everyone saying he is bad when behind or trying to overtake, you need to take into consideration the car.

It didn't stop Webber, especially at the Nurburgring

[intothepits]

It was a very impressive drive in 2009, and finally snatched second from Rubens in the driver standings, the victories were very solid aswell.

I would say he isn't really overrated, he has shown he can be a very impressive driver, a sure star and WDC of the future.

[jeze]

Alonso or Kubica would win WDC in Red Bull this year

Vettel is fast but he is making too much stupid mistakes.

I have to agree with you on the second one, but I don't think Kubica is any better than Seb. They're quite equal I suppose.

[BMW_F1]

I have to agree with you on the second one, but I don't think Kubica is any better than Seb. They're quite equal I suppose.

and that is why he was leading the WDC last year by mid-point with the 5th best car on the grid..

[jeze]

and that is why he was leading the WDC last year by mid-point with the 5th best car on the grid..

Could you tell me which cars that were better than the BMW up until Montréal? It looked a little bit worse than the Ferrari, but just the same as McLaren. It was certainly better than Red Bull, Williams, Toyota and Renault, though. But this tread is about Vettel, not Kubica.

Edited by jeze, 30 December 2009 - 20:08.

[Lukin83]

Overrated? I don't think so. People rate him as "an emerging driver", not as a complete one. Overhyped is the right word. Bernie wants next Schumacher and Vettel is his best candidate at the moment.

[PNSD]

He has to get a bit more consistent and gain some experience, but on the whole I think he's the 'real deal' as they say.

Thats the problem I see...

Lewis did not need that experience to reach that level.

He was at that level from Australia 07.

Vettel is not the real deal imo. He is not at Lewis's or Alonso's level. The two benchmark drivers in F1 atm.

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

Vettel is the best thing to hit F1 since the emergance of another great young German, Michael Schumacher. He will dominate the next 10 years, mark my words. When he was promoted to the RBR team from the sister TR outfit, they were a midfield car, but as if by some magic wave of the wand, they are now, according to some on here, the class of the field. I wonder how that happened? Adrian Newey? Well that would be the convenient answer, but I woder how much was down to the man they say is over rated.
Pffffft, over rated my foot. If anything, if some of the comments on here are anything to go by, he´s vastly under rated.
Sebastian Vettel will win the world drivers championship in 2010. That is my very confident prediction.

[potmotr]

I think Vettel is at about the same level Michael Schumacher was in 1992 and 1993.

Pretty quick, but still capable of the odd error.

If he can take the next step, he could do extrememly well.

Personally, I don't think he's quite operating at Hamilton's level yet.

[Sakae]

The Vettel hype has gone a bit to far in my opinion, and these days he's mentioned most of the time alongside Lewis and Fernando, despite have never won a championship to show for it.

The case is quite clear in my opinion: From Silverstone onward the Red Bull was the class of the field at least during six days, and clearly the car to beat. Of course he won three of those, fine, but then again Button had a 100 % rate in the beginning of the season when he had the car to beat. Alonso had a similar streak in 2006, where he had to fight of Michael Schumacher as well. What happened to Vettel?

1, Melbourne: Couldn't resist wheelbanging with Kubica, when he should just have let him past. Game over.
2, Sepang: Spun in the wet without featuring, so much for rainmaster.
3, Shanghai: Well, OK, rainmaster on his day.
4, Sakhir: Could have beaten Button there, but fended off Trulli well.
5, Barcelona: Victim of Massa's KERS system, still did well.
6, Monaco: Off the pace all weekend, then ended it in Ste Devote wall, not very well done.
7, Istanbul: Went off during the first lap, then failed to beat team mate.
8, Silverstone: Schumi-esque dominant victory.
9, Nürburgring: Beaten soundly by Mark Webber (!), just fended of Massa's slower Ferrari.
10, Hungaroring: Qualified badly, then hit Kimi in T1. Game over.
11, Valencia: Bad start, then way too slow before engine failure. Not the fastest car there, but still not fast enough.
12, Spa: Bad mistake in final Q3 run, something that no top driver can afford. Should have won easily.
13, Monza: Beaten by Alonso's inferior Renault with the same engine.
14, Singapore: Had equal car to Lewis, but couldn't settle for second and sped in pitlane. Another individual mistake.
15, Suzuka: Did what he should, and did it very well. Compliments.
16, Interlagos: Rain master?
17, Abu Dhabi: Same as Suzuka, when Hamilton got into trouble, he took the opportunity.

That makes for some interesting reading. I can't see that he did anything exceptional this season, it just seemed a wasted opportunity to my mind. It's difficult to assess how good Webber actually is, with regards to he facing no proper top drivers before he encountered Vettel. I rate him just above the midfield drivers, and to my mind that means that Vettel's lack of margin over him suggests that the youngster isn't the superstar people claim him already to be.

I'm not saying that he'll never become a WDC/the best driver, but I'm just saying that he's not there yet. That's why I find him overrated at the moment. Does anyone actually agree with me?

Abuse of statistics was never more evident than in here with your flawed outlook. His potential is not being evaluated on irrelevant details, but in rate of his progress from being nowhere just 2.5 seasons ago, to being second in current WDC standings. That's the key element in more substantive analysis.

Edited by MiPe, 30 December 2009 - 20:32.

[Bishy]

For once I think I will agree with you here.

He is over-rated.

Vastly quick, but over-rated still. He was the qualifier of the year, there is no doubt about his speed! He equals Lewis in that respect, but unlike Lewis Vettels racecraft is just plain shocking. Even compared to Webber!

I feel its a big let down to what could be a great driver.

People make the excuse of being young/inexperienced/give him time. I by no means am a Lewis fan but I will never forget Aus 07 and Hamiltons rocket start. He was confortable racing wheel-to-wheel from the go and has since made it look easy whilst Vettel has done the opposite imo.

I should add when it comes to raw speed I rate Vettel alongside Lewis and Alonso, but as a complete racer, he still has a long way to go.

Some very well thought out responses in this thread but i'm in this camp

I'd personally put him in the Massa / Button tier, certainly not in the Lewis / Alonso / Kimi tier as everyones seems to be doing in the Media lately - i've seen nothing to warrant that however here's hoping he has the chance to live up to the hype next year which as Lewis found in his first year is an incredible burden to bear.

[potmotr]

I think the danger for Vettel is that he gets ahead of himself.

Darren Heath wrote in his blog this year that Vettel had changed a lot during this season, and a much harder edge had emerged from the smiley boy next door we've all been used to seeing.

Heath claimed that Vettel was very firmly Red Bull's favourite son, and was basically told he has free reign to decide what duties he performs outside the car.

He also says Camp Vettel didn't take at all well to Webber emerging as the championship leader in the team midseason.

[Group B]

Some very well thought out responses in this thread but i'm in this camp

I'd personally put him in the Massa / Button tier, certainly not in the Lewis / Alonso / Kimi tier as everyones seems to be doing in the Media lately - i've seen nothing to warrant that however here's hoping he has the chance to live up to the hype next year which as Lewis found in his first year is an incredible burden to bear.

Trouble with that is I have a hard time putting Kimi a full tier above Massa. If I had to rate them in some way based on the last couple of years I'd say Fred current benchmark at 10, then LH at 9.7, Kimi 9.5, Massa 9.3, then Button & SV 9.1, etc

Of those, however, Vettel probably has most room, and time, for improvement, so no I don't really think he's overrated.

[Bishy]

I think the danger for Vettel is that he gets ahead of himself.

Darren Heath wrote in his blog this year that Vettel had changed a lot during this season, and a much harder edge had emerged from the smiley boy next door we've all been used to seeing.

Heath claimed that Vettel was very firmly Red Bull's favourite son, and was basically told he has free reign to decide what duties he performs outside the car.

He also says Camp Vettel didn't take at all well to Webber emerging as the championship leader in the team midseason.

I read that too, it's always gonna be smiles and cocktails while there's nothing on the line but the minute people get to the thick end of it we sometimes see the ugly side of that competitive spirit (that every sportsman/woman has) emerge - some even take it a step too far as we've witnessed over the years.

Edited by Bishy, 30 December 2009 - 20:48.

[BMW_F1]

Could you tell me which cars that were better than the BMW up until Montréal? It looked a little bit worse than the Ferrari, but just the same as McLaren. It was certainly better than Red Bull, Williams, Toyota and Renault, though. But this tread is about Vettel, not Kubica.

Kimi's Ferrari - 1
Massa's Ferrari - 2
Kovalainen's Mclaren - 3
Hamilton's Mclaren - 4

Kubica and Heidfeld's BMW - 5/6 best car on the grid..

4 drivers with better cars than Kubica yet he was leading the WDC..
clear? .....

Edited by BMW_F1, 30 December 2009 - 20:52.

[jeze]

Kimi's Ferrari - 1
Massa's Ferrari - 2
Kovalainen's Mclaren - 3
Hamilton's Mclaren - 4

Kubica and Heidfeld's BMW - 5/6 best car on the grid..

4 drivers with better cars than Kubica yet he was leading the WDC..
clear? .....

I still doubt that the McLaren was better than the BMW during that period, it leapfrogged them from Silverstone onward. Both BMW drivers could easily race with the McLaren in both Bahrain and Spain, typical aero tracks.

[potmotr]

I read that too, it's always gonna be smiles and cocktails while there's nothing on the line but the minute people get to the thick end of it we sometimes see the ugly side of that competitive spirit (that every sportsman/woman has) emerge - some even take it a step too far as we've witnessed over the years.

I don't think it's a bad thing for Vettel to show a more steel.

Personally, I wish he'd ditch the cheeky-chappy facade and all the teenage jokes.

But you can't have everything.

[noikeee]

I'd be quite surprised if he's not world class in 2 or 3 years time as he's already close to that. There's too many flashes of potential to ignore: topping F1 practice sessions at 19 y.o., winning his World Series by Renault one-off race debut then utterly dominating the championship the following year, first brilliant wet race at STR in China 2007, winning a wet race in a Toro Rosso the following year, again getting Red Bull's first win in 2009 in the wet, and being the first guy to out-qualify Webber. And is the reigning vice-champion at the age of 22. That is a fantastic CV for a driver.

He's not consistent enough yet, and his seemingly lack of ability to overtake is worrying, but I don't think he's overrated. I think he is one of the 2 drivers with most potential in the current grid, the other being Hamilton. There is a good chance he'll go another step in his performance next year, and a good chance Red Bull will have the best car, so it's not surprising Bernie would name him as the favourite.

[Dom77]

Yes all his wins his never passed someone On pole or when hamilton brokedown at abu Dhabi

2010 theirs no qualifying with fuel that advantages him and also you must takecare of the car which seems abit difficult for him being the king of kerb riding ;)

Also he cant pass which you need to do in 2010. So i dont expect much from vettel in 2010. bookmark this post you will see ;)

Edited by Dom77, 30 December 2009 - 21:10.

[Hippo]

Also he cant pass which you need to do in 2010. So i dont expect much from vettel in 2010. bookmark this post you will see ;)

Well, arguable nobody will be able to qualify lighter than him in 2010. So chances are he'll be starting from the first row if the car is top again. Not much for him to worry about there. Question is if he manages to iron out those stupid mistakes.

Not bookmarking the post though. If you're right I'm sure you'll dig it out yourself.

[BMW_F1]

Well, arguable nobody will be able to qualify lighter than him in 2010. So chances are he'll be starting from the first row if the car is top again. Not much for him to worry about there.

more aggressive guys like Massa/Hamilton/Alonso can easily pass him at the start..

[jeze]

more aggressive guys like Massa/Hamilton/Alonso can easily pass him at the start..

Not to mention how he uses to 'shoot' his tyres. That's a strength in the wet, but on a quickly drying surface and on a heavey car he invariably gets into trouble with tyre wear.

[undersquare]

I find it hard to judge with him being so young, the youngest debutant and still only 21 at the start of last year. Lewis' start skewed our expectations I think. So far Seb's been as impressive as anyone else at that age, including MS and FA.

On the overtaking, the RBR couldn't follow well, didn't have the strongest engine or kers, and the Macs and Brawns were very good on the brakes too.

Top 3, for me. 2010 will tell us more.